Zed is a pure nightmare opponent for most mid-laners, but once players get Zhonya's and QSS, he's next to worthless because his ultimate is negated. Is this intended to be his niche?
If not, perhaps you could consider nerfing his health regeneration so that poke sticks to him. Once he gets a Bilgewater Cutlass, poke mages like Lux and Syndra basically don't have anything against Zed.
Teridax682 votesMy issue with Zed is that he doesn't feel like he gets punished hard enough for his mistakes, despite being able to punish his opponents extremely hard for being out of position. Nerfing his regen would harshen his penalties for making mistakes early on, though I'm not sure if that would still help as much once he gets a 
in lane. An alternative, I think, would be to decrease the speed of his W shadow, at least earlier on, which would require him to telegraph his long-range poke a bit more (he'd be less oppressive) and take more time to get out of fights (he'd be more gankable and wouldn't be able to remove himself instantly from a losing trade).
darkdill1 votesSince he maxes out his W last, this would also be a mid-game nerf to Zed if you lowered the speed of his shadows.
Lowering his health regeneration would be the better choice. He sits right now at 7.1 at level 1, which allows him to shrug off harassing hits fairly decently. If it was reduced, he'd have to rely more on the lifesteal (which means going ham on minions) and poke mages would be able to make damage stick to him.
The5lacker1 votesThe problem is by the very nature of AD champs, they're always going to have ludicrously better sustain options in lane than anyone else, because Lifesteal is hugely problematic. They reduced Spellvamp's effectiveness because it lets mages full heal off of minion waves, and yet that's basically a core aspect of every AD champion in the game.
Combine Spellvamp and Lifesteal, remove the AoE reduction, and have it be only a third as effective against minions. That solves quite literally all of the problems with them currently. No more confusion (All damage against everything is counted.), no more abuse cases (Ryze, Vlad, etc. no longer become the same infinite sustain machines they can be, and harassment actually matters bot lane past the 8 minute mark), it's actually useful on AoE mages and champs whos damage applies neither spell or on-hit effects (Diana is ecstatic).
Teridax682 votesI'm not entirely sure if that would solve the problems with spell vamp. One of the big issues with it is that it can apply AoE healing, unlike lifesteal which is almost always single-target only, and gives it to potentially any champion in the game, which means that a situation as common as fighting a champion alone or next to a minion can have a huge amount of variance just because of spell vamp. The amount of lifesteal you get also tends to be something you can mostly control outside of a champion's kit (e.g. via attack speed, attack damage and crit, which are mostly item-based even on champions with steroids), whereas champions interact in completely different ways with spell vamp due to their abilities, so it's also difficult to gate it in a uniform manner with the current model. Adding to all of this variance is also the difference in playstyle between casters: whereas even AD assassins heal pretty similarly to marksmen, and heal for large amounts over time, some champions like 
or 
might want similar healing over time, whereas burstier champions like 
or 
might want to recover large amounts in a very small window, even if they don't heal for that much afterwards. It might actually be worth tailoring existing spell vamp items to suit these different styles, instead of trying to unify all sustain under a same set of rules.
The5lacker1 votesStop and think for a moment: Was the problem with AoE healing the ability to hit 3 champions, or 3 champions and 7 minions?
Teridax682 votesBoth. The problem with AoE healing of any kind is that it can become extremely volatile depending on factors not related to the main target you're trying to kill. Give 
satisfactory spell vamp against one champion, and she goes nuts in teamfights, which is why we have the current reduced effectiveness on AoE spells. Even with the model you propose, hitting just one extra minion multiplies your sustain by a huge amount, so it doesn't really reduce the volatility of spell vamp-like sustain. The core problem you're dealing with here is balancing sustain so that it works well on single-target damage, but doesn't get abused with AoE, and I don't think that's achievable in a way that satisfying using just one form of sustain.
The5lacker1 votesThis very much isn't a question where "both" is an acceptable answer. And hitting a minion would multiply the sustain by the same "insane" amount as it currently does. In fact, it'd multiply the amount by LESS comparatively, as rather than hitting 2 targets doubling your healing, hitting a second target only increases it by 33%. So...that entire post is wrong.
Teridax681 votesAnd hitting a minion would multiply the sustain by the same "insane" amount as it currently does.
Precisely, which is why you'll run into the same issues as current spell vamp, where you're going to have to tune down your healing to unsatisfying numbers just so that AoE spells don't do crazy stuff in minion waves. My point is that it is impossible to make healing satisfactory on single targets and have that same healing apply to more than just one target, at least not with the percent damage healing version you're proposing.
The5lacker1 votes...Let me see if I'm getting this right. "Reducing the core problem with Spellvamp would leave you with the same problem with Spellvamp."
Have I gotten this correct? Or is there some deeper issue I'm missing? Because what I'm proposing is quite literally a solution to that problem. The problem is hitting minions are too strong a source of sustain. The solution is making the minions less of a source of sustain. That seems to me to be an exceedingly simple "Problem -> Solution" relationship that gets around the current problem with Spellvamp, which is AoE abilities are useless for vamping against champions.
Teridax681 votesWell, no, my point is that you're ending up with the exact same problem, so you're not really reducing it. The issue isn't just with minions, it's with balancing single-target sustain versus sustain on multiple targets. Even with what you're proposing, there's so much variance in the sustain you can get at any given point in a fight that it would still not be possible to make sustain viable for everyone. In fact, your iteration might even worsen some of the issues with sustain, since AoE-heavy champions like 
or 
would either suddenly have their healing explode during teamfights, or be forced to contend with sub-par healing until they reach that spike (assuming they opt into healing).
Speaking of which, a change like this would also add a lot of ability-based sustain on typically autoattack-focused champions, marksmen in particular. Is this intended? A possible issue I see with this is that it risks creating clarity issues, since instead of getting healing at clear intervals you'd be getting constant and uneven pseudo-regen, which is one of the problems with 
, who heals from so many different sources that it's often difficult to gauge how much damage she's really taking.
The5lacker1 votesWhich is why Spellvamp is so OP now and an autobuy on every AoE champion. ... Wait. No, it isn't that at all. In fact it's kinda garbage.
The changes I propose aren't so "literally everyone gets spellvamp." It's so DPS champions can get it reliably in healthy amounts against champions without making it overpowered when factoring in minions. If you were actually bothering to pay attention in this discussion, you'd notice that the healing from minions with AoE abilities hasn't changed at all with my system.
Teridax681 votesI think you're missing the point here. I'm not saying spell vamp is OP right now, I'm saying its design is critically flawed because it's forced to deal with single-target healing and AoE healing at the same time, and because of that it feels mostly lackluster because it's balanced around abuse cases (e.g. Vlad, Morde, etc.). By copying this design, you are also copying those same flaws onto your model, which is why you're also going to run into those same issues.
The5lacker1 votesBut the root of the problem with AoE and Spellvamp interactions has always been the fact that firing an AoE into minions deals truly ludicrous total damage and, therefor, the reduced efficiency on AoE has always made sense for that. That is a problem that has already found a solution. However, the current Lifesteal/Spellvamp system has its own three very distinct problems:
AoE champions have no incentive to get Spellvamp for combat sustain, even if they're DPS champions (you know, the champions Vamprism stats are designed for), because it's so inefficient on them even if their abilities can, at max, hit two targets.
AD champions have inordinate amounts of lane sustain just by farming. This makes harassment against AD champions less relevant, which in turn lead to Lifesteal being nerfed early game across the field, hurting champions who want to use it for strong engagement.
Lifesteal and Spellvamp are currently just excessively confusing. Lifesteal applies on autoattacks. It benefits from most (but not all) on-hit effects that deal physical damage, and triggers on abilities that apply on-hit effects. Spellvamp applies on most (but not all) abilities that don't apply on-hit effects, regardless of the type of damage they deal. This is a nightmare for new players to figure out, and is needlessly complex because both Lifesteal and Spellvamp are always going to be useful on the champs with the same core damage output: Damage Per Second. AD champs tend towards DPS more than AP champs, but the fundamental strengths of Vamprism type stats is completely independent of whether a champion deals magic of physical damage: How they deal their damage is far more important than the type of damage they deal, and I'm not just talking about whether they right click an enemy or press the Q key. Vamprism simply works best on constant DPS, because on Burst if you use up your burst at full health, you get nothing, and if you burn your burst and don't kill your target, you lose that fight. DPS doesn't have that problem. If you deal constant DPS, if you take any damage, your healing will be relevant, as you want the fight to drag on as long as you can.
So if the same fundamental variety of champs use Lifesteal and Spellvamp in the same way, why should they be different stats? Answer: They shouldn't. AD and AP DPS champs may play differently in a number of ways, but their survivability isn't one of those ways, at least not ideally. So we have a needlessly complex system that still leaves a pair of agitating problems to deal with, and then a solution that reduces complexity and takes out those two remaining problems without circumventing the core issue of the stats, which is the potential massive spikes in healing when firing into minion waves either intentionally or accidentally. I mean, this is the system Renekton is currently using with the self-heal on his Q. Seems to be pretty effective.
Teridax681 votesExcept Renekton is specifically tuned to thrive in crowds. Not everyone is balanced around that, and some of the champions who are ( , 
) are also responsible for spell vamp being less powerful than it could be. I also don't think the idea of reducing effectiveness on multiple targets, whether they're champions or minions, is a good way of solving the problem of AoE healing, because you're inevitably still getting more healing (and potentially a lot more) than if your ability targeted a single opponent.
While I agree that spell vamp doesn't have that much clarity, I disagree that the same applies to life steal. The fact that it applies only on basic attacks, or abilities that mimic basic attacks, means there's a clear way of knowing where a champion's healing is coming from, and at what pace.
I don't think the answer to the AD/AP sustain difference is to necessarily homogenize the two. For example, AP champions tend to roam a lot more during the mid game, so it might make more sense for them to have stronger regeneration than AD champions, which is already the case. I also don't think it would be wise to have AP champions sustain off of minions in the same way as AD champions, since AD champions cannot clear a wave instantly and heal off of every minion at the same time, whereas an AP champion can using spell vamp.
While I agree that even AoE champions struggle to make use of spellvamp, I think that just means spell-based sustain for AP champions needs to be gated independently of how many targets you hit. With your model, any amount of sustain you have planned for single-target champions will inevitably multiply itself for AoE champions, so you can't really have your cake and eat it too.
Very Hard Engage1 voteszed wins at sustained lane trading and excels at 1v1ing someone. which ofc gives him the super easiest time in abusing that, getting ahead and snowballing, which is the real issue. because if hes not ahead hes not a good team fighter, so once your team groups up it becomes "who cares"
Bresn1 votes
- Guys I'm fine, deleting carries are OKAY!
Martyrofsand1 votesZed is not worthless once opponents have Zhonyas or QSS. There are COUNTLESS videos from bronze all the way up to the pro level showing zed absolutely destroy teams with his AoE from his Q and E. Hell I think my favorite one was when he was with a Twitch and the shout casters actually made the mistake of saying the AoE done to the enemy team was from his spray and pray when his spray and pray had already ended and the actual damage that destroyed 3 members of the enemy team almost instantly came from all of Zed's AoE.
Here is the breakdown of the play I'm talking about...
thinking man1 votesAll Zed is good at is accumulating advantages since his late-game sucks.
Cenobite Azaziel1 votesZonyha negates almost every skill and ultimate in the game. If it is a skill shot, has a delay timed /visible particle, zonyha will negate it.