Thoughts on the Leona Changes

StoryDuck··14 votes·5,086 views

I feel that Leona is getting hit too hard in the damage department with too little to compensate. She is losing 45 damage on her passive, 30 damage on Q, 40 damage on W, and 100 damage on R. This is not a small nerf to her damage at all. That is minus 215 damage. 115 of this is taken off of basic abilities. Her ult deals some more damage but it requires you to hit a lot of AAs in order to do so and doesn't deal that much extra damage. Now, don't get me wrong I like the extra CC and feel that Leona will love this but is this huge nerf to her damage really a justification for that CC? Does this fix her major issues?

Leona already has a pretty rough early game because she has no sustain and can only go all in. She already has a serious problem that when she falls behind a little she has a hard time staying relevant and this seems to me like it will just exacerbate the problem. I don't completely mind making her damage harder to deal (with ult) but shouldn't it be a much greater bonus for an ultimate? Maybe/maybe not. I was still pretty uncomfortable even with the ult damage changes but I thought "hmm that is a lot of CC upgrading I think I could apply most of it." However, they have even lowered the damage of the ultimate! I would also like to point out that it is EXTREMELY RARE that a support gets to level 16. It happens, but only in very long games.

CONTEXT: Solar Flare (R) bonus magic damage with Incandescence charge lowered to 30/40/50 from 30/50/70.

Total changed from: 190/375/600 to 190/335/500

Old Ult Damage: 150/250/350

R From Old to New: +40/+85/+150

Ultimate is on a 90/75/60 cooldown.

Q and W are normally the two abilities first maxed on Leona (not always). As most cases have these two abilities max I'm going to point out that at lvl 11 60-70 damage is missing for +15-+25 damage with 4 AA (not counting nerf to passive putting it around -20 damage). At level 16 Leona will finally see an uptick in damage but I have played support for a long time and I can say with certainty that it is a rare game I hit level 16 as a support. This is because the level gap bonus EXP shuts off at higher levels because people cannot go above level 18. A good team-fight and some kills in a late game and sure you can hit lvl 16 but normally that means the game was just won.

Leona is a CC master and it is hard to put an exact number on how powerful the 2 second CD reduction is on her Q will be. It will have a great impact but Leona suffers from having a timed armor/MR buff that if she falls behind it is rare that she can survive in team-fights for longer then 1 E Q. It is an absolute terrible feeling to fall behind as Leona because you will feel useless. This brings me to what I feel Leona needs with her changes, I agree she doesn't need the damage but she does need survivability. I want to propose an extra tanky bonus when ulting. This will allow her to stay relevant when behind as a tanky support like Braum and Alistar can when behind. I don't know what numbers exactly but anything like bonus Armor/MR for each Incandescence change or just straight up bonus Armor and MR for x seconds. Whatever the case it would help Leona a lot to be able to actually hit a few AAs in the mid game when behind a little.

I fear greatly that the proposed changes will hurt Leona more then help and turn her into a feast or femine support. I used to play her a lot before the META became swamped with Namis and Zyras. I know how hard it is when you fall behind on Leona because she is very item dependent as a support. This is because a portion of her W defensive ability is put into scaling with current armor and MR. I want to play Leona again and I don't think these changes fix the major problems she has. They fix some minor issues like having stuff to do after blowing her CDs but that wasn't really the issue she had as a support. Time will tell what will happen after these changes and I hope I am wrong but I can't help but be afraid.

45 Comments

Chamuel856 votes

Leona is already pretty feast or famine. If Leona is behind, she can't do much as she'll die instantly. Her W is no Alistar R and does very little to help offset how little gold she gets. I don't know. The changes are interesting for her R, but yeah ... it seems like a big nerf on a support... which is so weird.

StoryDuck4 votes

I know. I fear the lower damage on Passive, Q and W will make her fall behind even more. It will certainly make her early game harder and it was already pretty hard. She could really use some mid/late game scaling buffs for tanking.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

I know. I fear the lower damage on Passive, Q and W will make her fall behind even more. It will certainly make her early game harder and it was already pretty hard. She could really use some mid/late game scaling buffs for tanking.

AD Leona players are eager though.

RiotFeralPony6 votes

It is indeed an overall damage hit on the champion in exchange for more crowd control (lower Q CD and +.25 root seconds on E). It's possible we're off here on the reductions but two additional things to keep in mind when running the analysis.

1- All the damage reductions are backloaded into later levels (especially the passive) and it's generally rare that she level caps as you mention. As a result this damage while looking big on paper will be functionally a much smaller hit in game.
2- The Incandescence attacks from the Ultimate apply Sunlight with each attack. This is a heavy amount of additional base damage that's easy to forget about.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

So balance is one thing do you guys find she's more fun with the changes? And is she still such a feast/famine champ in your playtests?

I like the idea behind it giving her stuff to do more often. Was a little disappointed she doesn't get super autos on her w anymore just her ult.

RiotFeralPony4 votes

She's still Leona at the end of the day. If you love Leona you'll still love her after the changes. If you hate Leona these changes are unlikely to change your mind (unless she comes out super strong). As a former frequent Leona player, who even played her Mid w. Triforce build back in the day, I find them more fun overall. The biggest difference is sunlight timing and usage when using the ult is more interesting to optimize and the Q being up more frequently encourages me to stick around longer in a fight after I use all my cooldowns. With the Q CD and the enhanced autos from the Ult I've felt like I had more to contribute and do in a fight.

Also having a giant glowy death sword is pretty satisfying. (It also shows up brightly through the death grey tint for opponents which is pretty sweet thematically) The project version in particular also looks cool.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

that does sound cool. How good the empowered autos feel is definitely the biggest question for me, looking forward to trying her out!

I used to play her like a year ago and I did just play her the other day for a chest. I'd forgotten but she is pretty fun already, at least if you're ahead and you can safely go in a lot

SnugglePuggle942 votes

But why nerf her numbers so hard? Please put some of it back, man. I feel the same way as the OP. You didn't need to nerf her so hard for such a little and hard compensation to be able to hit. I honestly don't like these changes. Just scrap them and give her a new set of buffs, please.

Luna Ather Solis2 votes

Riot: we wanted to give Leona more to do when all her abilities is on Cd, so lets nerf all her base damage and give her utility on her ult was has the longest cool down, GREAT IDEA RIOT

oh wait those 3,4,5 AA from her ult have a 15% ap ratio guess what riot i wil start playing ap mid lane Leona very very often, are you gonna nerf that in patch 6.15 because you want her to stay a support

I INT YOU LOOOSE1 votes

OFF TOPIC mister pony could you plz look into my post about Lucian and Rageblade cause i think rageblade on lucian is bugged cause if you got your passive (lightslinger) you only get 1 stack of Guinsoo's Rage but items like Wit's End give you 2 stacks with your passive??? Shouldnt this be 2 stacks of Guinsoo's Rage?? The Strange thing is if you got your 6 stacks the other effect(the on-hiteffect triggers twice thing) of rageblade triggers in a single autoattack when you got your passive !!! plz fix this i want to enjoy my lucian with rageblade :(

Dominick Destine1 votes

Couldn't you at least give her some additional survivability to compensate for the massive destruction of her offense? this goes double since she now needs to remain in melee range a lot longer after her combo is down.

I mean, it's clear you intend for Leona to be a diver/front-line fighter... which is fine, but if you're going to give emphasis to that, it is strange that you'd completely ignore her defenses.

redfeenix4 votes

Sigh another one of my favourite champions gets reworked and rekt. Rip morde shen and now Leona

StoryDuck1 votes

I felt Shen is pretty strong at this time but yeah I feel you. Who's your 4th fav?

redfeenix3 votes

Gangplank was. Remember all these champs I played since lvl 1 . So I looked for simple champs that looked and felt like juggernaut.

Gangplank e is too complicated for me now lol , I'm a srub. I miss playing gp a lot he was my absolute favorite.

Shen just feels weird and clunky now with his floating q and w. Still plays the same way as a peeler, but yeah his q and w are just too clunky/artificial

StoryDuck2 votes

Tough one. Yeah, they seem to be over-complicating a lot of champions lately. If you like that Juggernaut feel Malphite was about as simple as they come and as long as you ult well you can have a big impact, I remember having fun building AP bruiser with him last season. I've seen a lot of strong Darius in top lately too but I haven't played him much at all.

redfeenix2 votes

Darius is fun , thats who i play mostly. Still miss Shen/GP though , ya know. hope the dont fuck up leo too badly

StoryDuck1 votes

Me too.

R FLASH XD4 votes

Tank support does less damage?I don't care if you hate me for saying this but that sounds awesome to me

StoryDuck1 votes

I don't mind her dealing less damage, if anything I like the direction they are going, but she doesn't have tools strong enough to remain a tank support if behind. As her entire kit is about engaging it makes it really hard to play the champion around mid game unless you have some big key items.

Kubox4 votes

Leona is closer than a kill lane than an actual support and has always been this way. It's how she gets to have super low CD on her CC when compared to other tank supports, all at the cost of falling harder than any other support when behind.

Her reworks also boosts her early game dps and lockdown prowess a bit, giving her better chances to not be locked in a famine status.

Also, Riot wants to reward her for AAing. Every tank supports has a reason to AA apart from her, Ali, Braum, Thresh, Blitz, etc. All of them has something that says "here, your AAs are buffed/useful". Not Leona, so Riot wanted to change that.

Lastly, Leona is not actually all about engaging. If you want to win late-game as Leona, your best bet is to use all your tools to peel from your carry unless you have a wombo combo comp. And she just got much better at that.

StoryDuck1 votes

Leona is closer than a kill lane than an actual support and has always been this way. It's how she gets to have super low CD on her CC when compared to other tank supports, all at the cost of falling harder than any other support when behind.

Feast of Famine based on how you do in lane is poor design. What do you even mean by kill lane?

Her reworks also boosts her early game dps and lockdown prowess a bit, giving her better chances to not be locked in a famine status.

lockdown yes...dps...math is your friend sir. She does not deal more damage in the early game. She deals less at all stages of the game. I am fine with this trade to apply more CC but she needs to live long enough to take advantage of it.

Also, Riot wants to reward her for AAing. Every tank supports has a reason to AA apart from her, Ali, Braum, Thresh, Blitz, etc. All of them has something that says "here, your AAs are buffed/useful". Not Leona, so Riot wanted to change that.

She needed to AA to stun but yes it is nice to get more to do after CD's have been applied. I said that the changes fixed that but I don't think that is Leona's major problem. Ali and Braum have tools in their kit that allow them to tank/be relevant even if they fall behind a bit. Examples like when losing a single fight in bot lane then having to play passively for a bit to scale up which is very common. You can't win lane everytime. Leona struggles very much at doing this because she has no long range poke or sustain. If you fall behind in lane you need to pray for a jungle gank because your options are engage....or give up farm and EXP which makes it even worse for Leona. Roaming helps if you can catch someone but that isn't always an option if your ADC is pushed under turret because they need Leona's CC to protect them.

Lastly, Leona is not actually all about engaging. If you want to win late-game as Leona, your best bet is to use all your tools to peel from your carry unless you have a wombo combo comp. And she just got much better at that.

Yes that is how you play Leona. The problem happens before that in lane. Leona can be burst down almost as easily as the ADC she protects when behind and it is WAY too easy to punish a Leona when she falls behind. Alistar has his ult to remain relavant and Braum his Shield which give hard %damage reduction that negates the first hit completely. THey also have tool for in lane to stay and get farm. Braum can harass with Q and Ali can heal. Leona can't do that.

Kubox1 votes

A kill lane is a kill lane. Soraka and Janna are looking to give their carry a safe laning phase and let them farm it out. Their lack of kill pressure opens up either extreme healing or top tier peeling. On the other hand, other supports like Blitz and Leona are looking to kill their opponent. They pay this kill pressure with diminished peeling and/or pressure as the game goes on. Blitz sucks at peeling, Leo's CC and defensive steroid are both not as effective as champions like Alistar who don't bring as much kill pressure.

Her DPS is something that needs to be proven once the reworks comes in. Overall, they're giving her a slight CC upgrade at the cost of base damage, but she gets some much higher damage through AAs. I think given on the match-up, this can go two ways. Something like MF that gets locked down pretty easily should be taking more damage in an extended fight than current Leo. On the other hand, slippery champions like Kalista can not only dodge her engage, but even should they get engaged upon, they can deny a lot of her dps. Personally I think it's fine, it offers a very clear "should I pick Leo or someone else" situation. And even should the case be that her damage ends up being weaker, even should she stick to a target, her late-game still got better because of the CC buff.

Leona cannot be tankier than Braum and Ali. Braum's stun is reliant on his team and his knockup telegraphed and heavily CD-gated. The only thing he offers to his team is to tank. Alistar has a massive defensive steroid, but his CC's CDs are much longer and he usually won't get more than 2 rotations while Leo gets 4, possibly 5 in. Alistar is also extremely vulnerable when his ult is down, unlike the other 2. If anything, the 3 create a nice trinity :

Braum has unreliable CC with a great, spammable defensive steroid Alistar has great CC and Steroid, but is heavily affectd by CD Leona has spammable CC and steroid, ath the cost of her CC being less impactful and steroid weaker.

Does the enemy have many ranged abilities that might require someone to tank regularly? Braum is the man. Does the enemy have a full engage comp, and you need someone that can both tank and break it with massive AoE CC? Alistar's the best The enemy team lacks full engage but has 1 or 2 targets that can quickly jump on your carry and take them out? These guys better be ready to praise the sun

And no, Leona is not as squishy than the ADC, that steroid is still pretty big in the early-game and can become obnoxious if you kill the bot lane early.

blfUvZ8Ybu2 votes

That nerf isn't enough.Riot wants to see Leona at competitive.I am not complaining.We need diversity.

Riot knows their competitive request.

StoryDuck3 votes

Do you mean competitive like LCS level plays? I haven't seen a Leona pick in support for a long time now in LCS. I think you might mean something else here. Sorry just a bit confused so if I am misinterpreting let me know.

Her CC is stronger but she is still item dependent for survivability. At LCS level play I am not really qualified to say whether the CC buffs are enough or not (wish I was but I'm still hovering around plat 1-3, I believe in the Diamond in me though!). I don't have enough experience with coordinated teamplay to know that yet. She was already pretty strong in the CC department though and could easily lock down a target for the rest of the team to jump on so I don't see the anything new for her appeal to be picked in the LCS. I do think her solo-playability is going to take a hard hit though.

blfUvZ8Ybu2 votes

{quoted}

Do you mean competitive like LCS level plays? I haven't seen a Leona pick in support for a long time now in LCS. I think you might mean something else here. Sorry just a bit confused so if I am misinterpreting let me know.

Her CC is stronger but she is still item dependent for survivability. At LCS level play I am not really qualified to say whether the CC buffs are enough or not (wish I was but I'm still hovering around plat 1-3, I believe in the Diamond in me though!). I don't have enough experience with coordinated teamplay to know that yet. She was already pretty strong in the CC department though and could easily lock down a target for the rest of the team to jump on so I don't see the anything new for her appeal to be picked in the LCS. I do think her solo-playability is going to take a hard hit though.

Because we are in patch 6.12 at competitive.Leona changes 6.13

khorney2 votes

they did this becuase people were using her in the top lane and recking face as her, same as old taric peopel were using him top lane and recking face now you cant do it it seems

StoryDuck4 votes

I don't really see how...unless the opposing player was way out of position because a large portion of her damage output is in her passive which requires an ally to trigger. I could see her being oppressive if the jungler continually ganked for her but otherwise she wouldn't be very threatening.

I was quite confused at seeing her base damages and her passive damage lowered because she already had some pretty low damage without allies nearby. She doesn't have %max hp damage or some similar mechanic that a lot of other top laners have. Her damage is what you see and building AP on her is incredibly inefficient. She doesn't have damage scaling on anything except AP too so building armor/health doesn't increase the damage. In addition she doesn't get shields or built in sustain like many other tanks making her very hard to tank with without items.

I do remember the Taric top, I tried it a few times. He was a lot of fun in top before his changes.

khorney2 votes

all her moves have high damage, ad runes and thunderlords , qwe max w you will bully them out of lane ..... not sure how you dont see it

StoryDuck2 votes

Passive - 20-140 with ally only no scaling

Q - 40 / 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 damage (+30% AP)

W - 60 / 110 / 160 / 210 / 260 damage (+40% AP)

E - 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 damage (+40% AP)

R - 150 / 250 / 350 damage (+80% AP)

Auto Attack - 60-111 damage

....these are very low Khorney and none have AD scaling so all you are boosting is her AA. Lets take your scenario of AD Leona and have AD ruins and get 100 damage per auto at level 1. At level 3 you would deal a maximum of 160 and we will say 3 auto attacks for 300 more. That is 460 damage and all abilities spent.

Renekton is a fairly common top laner and if we are building all AD it would make more sense for him as he scales with AD. He has an AA reset like leona, can dash in like leona and can stun like leona. It would be very easy to get the same amount of AAs as Leona with his kit so we will assume you get 3 hits like leona. He also doesn't have %Max HP damage or some similar mechanic.

We have 100 ad so it makes his scaling easy (minus 2 for 98 due to love base AA damage, I rounded down every time).

Q - 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 damage (+80 % AD) and heals for an amount

W - 10 / 30 / 50 / 70 / 90 damage (+150% AD)

E - 60 / 120 / 180 / 240 / 300 damage (+180% AD)

R - Gain 250 / 500 / 750 health deal 450 / 900 / 1800 damage over 15 seconds (+150% AP)

Auto Attack - 58-111 damage

at level 3 Q deals 60 (+78), W deal 10 (+147), E deals 60 (+176), add in three auto attacks for 294 extra and you have a total of 825 damage. This damage has no delay so unlike Leona W it doesn't have to be timed and can be applied on the fly. This is also not counting his rage mechanic which would make the damage even higher.

I suggest you compare to other top laners to see for yourself the difference in damage. The problem you are likely running into is the Leona is waiting for you to aggro while in minions. She can lock you down a good time and let the minions do most of the damage. That was how I often played Taric in top lane before his changes. He didn't have the raw damage but he was super tanky so I just punished my opponent when he tried to kill me within a wave of minions. Once I got ahead it was easier because I had items to out tank his damage. If you face another Leona top wait for the minion wave to be whittled down before going in to kill her.

PS: Math is fun.

khorney2 votes

here is soem more things to think about go try it and tell me what happens. ad will combo off your q and the brust from w will help, ad runes with magic pent marks and mr glphys

StoryDuck2 votes

I can tell you didn't even read this. :P It seems that math is scary.

You seem to have some grammatical errors. Soem is spelled S O M E, here and ad should be capitalized as they begin a sentence. I guess grammar is scary as well.

khorney3 votes

okay im on my phone typing what do you want. So again your not going to try it and still assuming its trash,,,, how sad

StoryDuck1 votes

It can work I won't dispute that. You can make AD Soraka work too. I mean if you want to just have fun then, yeah, go for it. Play AS Nautilus. Play Tank Anivia. Play AD Leona. You can make anything work with enough skill. I am sure Leona top can be a lot of fun. I will not say Leona top is good. Honestly, if you are playing AD top Leona it might be why you are stuck in silver.

khorney1 votes

it does work because when i have done it i have won or i just had a leo do it when i was in gold and we only won becuase of leo ...... and i play as naut jungle lol that truly does work i do it and no oen can 1v1 me lord help you if i catch you out becuase your dead.

StoryDuck1 votes

As I said, anything can work. It's just about base skills. Sounds like you have some good skills and could probably reach higher if you play champions that excel at their role and not just forcing them into off meta.

khorney1 votes

would rather play a champ i can use then a champ that typixcally does that role and i cant use.....

StoryDuck1 votes

That is fine. Not everyone has to play to reach a higher rank. Many have fun just playing the off meta stuff and having a good time. I use normals instead of ranked when I want to try something a bit unorthodox but I really enjoy the high skill competitiveness so I keep reaching for new heights in ranked. Hopefully I can reach Diamond this season. It's so close I can almost taste it!

blkKalameet1 votes

don't use Naut jungle as an example of off meta roll. Every few months he changes from top/sup/jung.

Anybody with that much cc is useful no matter where you take them if you play right.

khorney1 votes

Off meta meaning attack speed

Sire Hippington1 votes

renekton has bonus ad ratios, not total(save for his W), so your damage values from the ratio are far to high(also, 100ad at level 3? Do you start with a BF??). Also, what most people don't know, leona'S Q has two AA resets, allowing 3 hits in short succesion compared to the usuall 2. She also has a strong def stat boost on W to reduce retaliation damage, and she has FAR lower cds than renekton. Also, renekton is known to be strongest in lane and falling off later on, so it's not a suprise if he has a stronger level 3.

Leona top is(soon was) not OP, but certainly viable and can bully many other toplaners if played well, and her synergie with the jungler is massive, ganks nearly always result in a kill or atleast burned summoners.

With the current pbe changes, she'll most likely be no longer viable top.

Mr Fidori5 votes

That's my problem with it though. If people can take her elsewhere and make it work, why punish it? I don't think we should absolutely pigeon-hole champions into certain roles.

khorney2 votes

this guy is giving numbers with out actually trying it lol....... it works but hey he thinks he would get reckt..... leo top reks alot of top laners but he is using numbers with out trying it and assuming. ive done it rekt or got my jungler yi or who ever ultra fed my will was done regardless lol

zlumpy5 votes

Honestly...whats wrong with that? I don't get why people get up in arms over supports going to other lanes. If anything it's more annoying when other lane champs take the support position.

StoryDuck2 votes

I wouldn't Velkoz know anything Brand about laners Lux going as Zyra a support. :P

bottledpoop1 votes

I love these changes. Im tired of going in to fight as sona and decrease the enemy adc dmg with w passive only to have my adc bursted down by leona for no reason.

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