Scaling top laners are way too strong early

feintfiend·Mar 4, 2019·53 votes·17,930 views

Champs like , , are supposed to scale hard but their early games are waaaay too strong and safe. Jax counterstrike and FIora riposte negate lane bullies other than from dominating them. Lategame top laners other than need nerfs to their early game across the board.

What's the fucking point of playing anymore when the small weaknesses scaling champs have are covered by runes? Have you ever played into ? She beats you at every point of the game other than lvl 3!

105 Comments

Frosted TipsMar 4, 201918 votes

Honestly they also get far too strong early. Like they have too many items/are too strong once it hits like 20 minutes. Like they should still be scaling at that point.

SaiannaMar 4, 201917 votes

Kinda funny how "weak early game" champions have their weakness covered by runes and items to the point where they can contest with "strong early game" picks. Then by mid-game they overpower them, then in engame all "strong early game" champs get dumpstered.

This whole system gone so wrong and there are no signs of Riot stoping this stupidity from continuing

LTK KoRoMar 4, 20198 votes

you're picking wrong champions

there's no reason to lanebully with Rumble if you can just pick Jayce and bully all toplaners while outscaling 80% of them

Weiner the PoohMar 4, 20197 votes

Fiora’s parry runs a 24 second cd and is the lady anility maxed, name one bully that can’t use their important ability twice in that duration.

Moody PMar 4, 201929 votes

Darius

HighwiseeneMar 4, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z7V0cjEZ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-04T18:17:59.720+0000)

Darius

Darius honestly needs some love. For a "bully" I never feel scared of him in lane, I always know I can kill him if he mismanages anything in lane or just flat out outscale. I can't say the same for renekton and co.

Moody PMar 4, 201928 votes

I don't want him lane buffed, we've had enough of Riot slapping more damage on him and it going nowhere

5StackUltOneShotMar 5, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z7V0cjEZ,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-04T19:03:49.607+0000)

I don't want him lane buffed, we've had enough of Riot slapping more damage on him and it going nowhere

As a Darius one trick I can confirm I dont need more damage.

5StackUltOneShotMar 5, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z7V0cjEZ,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-04T19:03:49.607+0000)

I don't want him lane buffed, we've had enough of Riot slapping more damage on him and it going nowhere

As a Darius one trick I can confirm I dont need more damage.

5StackUltOneShotMar 5, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z7V0cjEZ,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-04T19:03:49.607+0000)

I don't want him lane buffed, we've had enough of Riot slapping more damage on him and it going nowhere

As a Darius one trick I can confirm I dont need more damage.

SaiannaMar 4, 201914 votes

whenever I see "buff" and "darius" words used in 1 sentence my palms get sweaty.

hiyaresMar 4, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Darius honestly needs some love. For a "bully" I never feel scared of him in lane, I always know I can kill him if he mismanages anything in lane or just flat out outscale. I can't say the same for renekton and co.

darius is a tank bully that is literally his kit is to bully tanks out of the lane. and honestly most range champs are better bullies now with how much poke extra damage and heal you get from just autoing now.

3TWarriorMar 4, 20192 votes

he bullies more than tanks. If they don't have enough crowd control, he can pretty much kill anything

VerxintMar 5, 20197 votes

My favorite mean is when someone says Yasuo is weak early.

SunDragonzMar 5, 20192 votes

{quoted}

My favorite mean is when someone says Yasuo is weak early.

I mean he kinda is. He doesn't really do that much damage without crit, it's just a ton of short ranged poke with Q

Serika ZeroMar 5, 20194 votes

Let's say I play talon, am early to mid game assassin.

The only point where I'm stronger than yasuo is: lv 2. after that yasuo gets stronger than me. Oh and duskblade power spike. So for like a minute in the early game and 5 minutes in the mid game.

Ofc I can still kill him late game or early game or mid game if he misplays buuuuuut if he doesn't and I play perfectly and he plays perfectly, I only got about 6 minutes opportunity.

So ofc, talon makes up for this by roaming a lot. But yasuo isn't really that weak early game. Unless you are like Vlad or malzahar or something that specifically counters him, yasuo is either good enough to fight back or actually stronger.

Seraphim117Mar 5, 20196 votes

Yeah. I love ornn, amumu, etc. but I cant figure it out for the life of me. Why get sh*t on early as Amumu Gangplank Chogath Ornn when you can play Jax MasterYi Kayle and just 1v5 at 35 minutes? seriously, why? fun is one thing but if you are trying to claim there is absolutely no point, not a single part of the game where the latter set isnt better. I know its cause ornn and mu(?) are teamfight lcs types, but god damn the balance difference is unreal

Brutalitops01Mar 4, 20195 votes

Tryndamere is very much so an early game champion. Jax and Fiora don't have too insanely strong early games if you know how to punish them. They're annoying abilities have 20 second cooldowns each. Bait them out, then all in and they die.

Doge2020Mar 4, 20194 votes

Trynd is only strong early if he gets a lucky crit, if not then he is one of the worst early game champs. I have beaten tryndamere so many times as garen mainly by doing short trades with Q when my grasp is up, even with Quinn I can easily beat him.

ThefrostyvikingMar 4, 20197 votes

You probably didnt know but its fully possible and quite easy to give yourself a 100% crit rate for at least 1 auto as long as you have at least 40% crit chance.

You see to make crit more reliable as a DPS source they made it so that each time you fail a crit you gain a hidden buff that boosts your next autos critchance by the amount you have.

So if you have 40% and miss twice you have thus accumulated 80% bonus crit chance for the next auto, ontop the 40% you already have.

Thus a Tryndamere with maxed out fury in lane can hit minions twice, if he doesnt crit on either he can then go for a trade where he commits to two auto attacks, at least one of those is 100% certain to crit, if wanting to be absolutely sure he can wait for a time where he hits minions 3 times in a row and doesnt get a crit which means the next hit will.

#, HiddenStats

6KEMBE4ORBAMar 4, 20193 votes

Wrong.

The pseudo RNG that Riot is using counts differently towards critting/not critting minions and champs + it uses some other hidden algorithms.

In other words - the system differentiates between minions and champs and tracks both separately.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=458135&page=7

" (Riot) Xypherous already posted in another thread that the "counter" for crit procs is different for heroes and minions. This means that you cannot abuse PRD by getting non-crits on minions - not that you could really do this in WC3 either, unless you had a lot of time to waste."

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=729097&page=1

"elaborate, how does LoL's work?"

Riot Xypherous:

Bounded geometric model. I'm not actually allowed to go into much more detail than that though, except it's been experimentally verified.

_ "Basically if you don't crit, your next attack is slightly higher chance. If you do, your next hit is slightly lower. Right? At least that's what I recall the example given trying to illustrate."_

Riot Xypherous:

That's the general gist of these systems, except there's usually things in there like bounding (max/min chances) and target queue'ing/selection/time decay and memory to ensure that attempting to exploit it is entirely pointless in a real game.

charge2505Apr 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You probably didnt know but its fully possible and quite easy to give yourself a 100% crit rate for at least 1 auto as long as you have at least 40% crit chance.

You see to make crit more reliable as a DPS source they made it so that each time you fail a crit you gain a hidden buff that boosts your next autos critchance by the amount you have.

So if you have 40% and miss twice you have thus accumulated 80% bonus crit chance for the next auto, ontop the 40% you already have.

Thus a Tryndamere with maxed out fury in lane can hit minions twice, if he doesnt crit on either he can then go for a trade where he commits to two auto attacks, at least one of those is 100% certain to crit, if wanting to be absolutely sure he can wait for a time where he hits minions 3 times in a row and doesnt get a crit which means the next hit will.

#, HiddenStats

Also known as pseudo-random distribution

QuephaMar 4, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Trynd is only strong early if he gets a lucky crit

People say this but I've never seen it happen. Every clip I see of Trynd winning early is when he gets like 6 auto attacks in and 2 of them crit, which is the exact average number that should crit.

Kleptomancy and Zoe create actual RNG swings in lanes that are easily observable, people fail to demonstrate much swing with Trynd.

AS I LAY FEEDINGMar 4, 20195 votes

Rumble is aids.

SaiannaMar 4, 20194 votes

This whole system gone so wrong and there are no signs of Riot stoping this stupidity from continuing

BEK MakadurMar 4, 20194 votes

Tryn to strong early? That´s straight up wrong.His WR is below 50% depending on the source even around 47% with very low playrates. Which is a sign of a very weak champion, as that means even his mains can´t compensate the few people who try him out. The new conwueror is pretty much garbage for tryn. Especially ppl like Renekton, Irelia, Riven and Olaf benefit from it. Is Irelia to strong now? Maybe, and if so that´s because conqu stupidly stacks with abilities.

Crescent DuskMar 5, 20194 votes

Right, as if Darius isn't broken enough.

Critmaster GarenMar 5, 20194 votes

its not just top laners. its also marksmen.

riot doesnt know what theyre doing with their own game anymore. they had this system of clear cut power curves of champions that are strong early and mid game, then fall off towards late. other champions had a weak early game and scaled into a strong late, and others were just reliable through the entire game.

then they went on this crusade to cut game times by 10 to 15 minutes and lategame basically doesnt exist anymore, so all these lategame champions basically got removed from the game. crit marksmen, veigar, nasus, some skirmishers like jax and other lategame champions that relied on stalling out games to carry later because they were weaker early.

then riot buffed all these lategame champions early games really hard (verigar got buffs to his w, nasus stacks much faster, marksmen hit their power spikes off 2 items instead of 3 or 4) and fucked up the entire balance of power curves in this game.

there are champions now that are decent early game and scale into such a mid and lategame that you question the balance teams sanity. at the same time you have champions that are straight up shit early to lategame. its complete chaos.

look at Vayne power curve. 50% winrate during the early stages and then just drastically increases over time.

Garen used to be strong early and fell of late. now hes just weak early, barely exists midgame and at later stages falls off like a rock.

crit marksmen power spike early again and bot lane dominates the game again, robbing top lane of their game impact. most of the time bot decides games now.

even after the change to turrets and the additions of plating, they basically still made sure that games dont last past 25 to 30 minutes anymore. because whats happening is pretty much that lane phase gets stalled out to 14 minutes (it used to last 15 to 20 minutes naturally in early seasons), then because of the extra gold from the plates, they want the game to suddenly snowball extremely hard and end as soon as possible after.

Cloud273Mar 4, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Champs like , , are supposed to scale hard but their early games are waaaay too strong and safe. Jax counterstrike and FIora riposte negate lane bullies other than from dominating them. Lategame top laners other than need nerfs to their early game across the board.

Actually I personally think Jax's late game is a little too strong. I wouldn't mind if they nerfed his late game and letting him keep some of that early game strength. OK I apologize for triple post. I kept pressing the "post" button and nothing happened.

FenjaminBranklenMar 4, 20192 votes

What do you mean gp doesn't have too strong an early game? Once he gets oranges he's basically unkillable.

LemonfaaceMar 4, 20193 votes

The orange is very expensive, and has a long CD. Very exploitable and punishable, even if it gets him out of some tough spots early on.

WashyMoneyMar 5, 20192 votes

Calling GP weak in lane is just false though. Until his recent slew of nerfs, he was considered a lane bully.

WashyMoneyMar 5, 20192 votes

Calling GP weak in lane is just false though. Until his recent slew of nerfs, he was considered a lane bully.

GilgayuMar 4, 20192 votes

This post just reminds of one thing.

Riot buff GP plzzzzz, even after critplank came back he still feels weak for a lategame carry.

Crescent DuskMar 5, 20192 votes

Right, as if Darius isn't broken enough.

Meep ManMar 5, 20192 votes

Top Lane champions have always been really weird with their scaling. Usually its not that they are weak during the phases of the game they're not aimed, its just, compared to the sections of the game where they are strong, they are weak. Don't quite understand? Let me kind of simple it down.

is an absolute godlike beast of a champion to fight early game right? Just an endless stream of spears, negating upwards of 3-4 basic attacks every trade, and then his E's base damage even at low levels is incredibly strong. However, does that mean he is awful late game? Does that mean he suddenly becomes useless? No! In fact, a Pantheon late game is still quite a scary sight for any squishy champions, especially if he hasn't fallen behind in gold. He can easily burst down an ADC. Its just how strong is he during this stage compared to a.) how strong he was late game and b.) compared to champions who are aimed to be strong late game? He's pretty weak. Due to most of his abilities being single target, he doesn't contribute a ton in fights and all his abilities leave him pretty open for a strong Tank to disrupt him.

Jax I believe is the best Top Lane late game champion. He deals hybrid damage, has defenses that scale off offense, and his actual defensive mechanic negates the most dangerous form of damage in the game late game: basic attacks from ADCs. He absolutely melts tanks, bursts squishies, and is incredibly hard to kill. However, how is he COMPARATIVELY early game? He's ok. Sure. You don't just automatically win trades with him, not by a decent shot. He packs a punch if you let him. However, how strong is he compared to a.) how is he late game and b.) compared to the real gods of the early game? Iffy. He can be a threat, but he'll probably lose those early trades against champions made to win them.

See what I mean? Top Lane is weird and always has been. No champion in Top Lane is ever stupidly weak in a certain section of the game like certain other roles. You're not gonna find a champion like Kassadin or Shaco where you're going through phases of the game and wondering what the heck kind of impact they are having? Nah. Top Lane is brutal. I think the main issue is people and teams as a whole in your average PUB have no idea how to quickly close out a game after getting an advantage. Am I saying I can do that? No. But most people can't either. Most people don't have the team coordination to press a lead they get really hard and win the game in a stupidly fast time. They get sluggish. They like to go for objectives they don't need to get. They like to destroy ALL the towers instead of just taking that Inhibitor while the enemy team is down for another 20 seconds, or they wanna go for Dragon despite an Inhibitor almost always making a bigger impact. People just have no idea how to press an advantage, and it slows down games. Most games that end early is because a team surrenders or someone actually knows how to press the attack. Just saying.

P.S. How the heck are you losing to Fiora and Tryndamere as Renekton ? Jax I maybe could understand because that matchup is kind of hard with Renek's W vs Jax E, but the others? Huh? Also Rumble isnt an early game bully. Hasn't been his strong point in the game for many seasons now. You play Rumble for his R in team fights.

MorgManBasherMar 5, 20192 votes

I have a feeling you don't play Tryndamere , his level 2 all in is the only point where he is "strong" early game till he hits 6 and even then he gets beaten up by most top laners.

Tryn is in a pretty rough spot right now, especially with his only good keystone being nerfed into the ground for him

sho ayaneMar 6, 20191 votes

I was under the impression that tryn was awful right now too, his crit is messed up or something

Meteora707Mar 5, 20191 votes

tryndaqueer isn't late game lmao, well maybe he will be after the buffs but ya know. your examples of lane bullies is odd as well, they were THE lane bullies at one point but nowadays they are mid game focused. lane bullies are like Illaoi Pantheon Quinn Cassiopeia Kled Darius Riven ...

IWindowXMar 5, 20191 votes

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=feintfiend

you complain about this champions yet you play them. Pick a side man, you look like a hypocrite otherwise.

JuiceBoxPMar 5, 20193 votes

How is he being a hypocrite exactly? he is very much not a hypocrite because he is playing those champs and he admits they are too strong.

He is not defending those champions because he likes them, he rather admits they are too strong and it is a mature and honest behavior.

JuiceBoxPMar 5, 20191 votes

Multiple post

JuiceBoxPMar 5, 20191 votes

Multiple post.

WolfAchillesMar 5, 20191 votes

Dude tryn top sits at a 45.6% winrate and youre saying he's too strong. WTF. Does he have to sit below 44 for you to think hes balanced? Seriously I dont get it.

sho ayaneMar 6, 20191 votes

I cant think of many champions that beat ignite pantheon in lane, at least fiora shouldn't lose to him if he has ignite

trynd is waifuMar 6, 20191 votes

if you think trynds early game is way too strong, you must be bronze.

XElite109Mar 6, 20191 votes

well at least you get to fuck waking since riot doesn't want to give us wu mains a buff

charge2505Apr 23, 20191 votes

For your first 3 example champions, the only one of those that is at all correct is Tryndamere . Jax has a garbage early game, and Fiora has no real way to carry late game. Even is outclassed by many.

You talk about strong early AND late game champs without mentioning Kayle . 2 ways to cs from range, plus she uses klepto to scale, a save that also does damage, and a heal that's a speed boost all come together to create a super safe and super strong late game carry that is nearly impossible to zone without missing CS in the lane.

You also made no mention of Nasus . A scaling auto-reset on a champion that builds full tank, and lifesteal on that auto-reset, plus grasp of the undying to get a bunch of his health back and scale healthwise, along with a slow that essentially turns into a root. He one shots people and can't really die late either.

You essentially took 3 champions that sort of argue completely against your point, and completely passed right over all the champs that would literally prove your argument by themselves ( Riven Jayce Nasus Kennen Kayle Camille )