Shouldn't Mages have wave clear and Marksmen damage to turrets?

Illâoi Evê Siôn·Jul 17, 2017·11 votes·1,061 views

That would mean you need both for the best pushing effort.

Right now both have both.

35 Comments

Pierce The VealJul 17, 20175 votes

{quoted}

That would mean you need both for the best pushing effort.

Right now both have both.

It's almost like Riot forgot ADC's are supposed to be single target champions.

JoxcabJul 18, 20173 votes

Riot forgets a lot of things xd

Pierce The VealJul 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Riot forgets a lot of things xd

True this.

MuzétJul 17, 20174 votes

Mages don't have that much turret dmg (Ziggs excepted for obvious reason)

Very Hard EngageJul 17, 20172 votes

they actually do comparable damage as adcs do with a morello/ludens/rab cap build

and veigar also breaks the rule.

(what you're noticing are mages who build seekers/catalyst + 60/70 ap items)

Hexs FortuneJul 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

they actually do comparable damage as adcs do with a morello/ludens/rab cap build

and veigar also breaks the rule.

(what you're noticing are mages who build seekers/catalyst + 60/70 ap items)

By the time you finish 4k gold Rabadons the game is near over anyway

MuzétJul 18, 20171 votes

ADC got more consistent damage. It's easier for them to break down the tower. You can compare "lambda" adc like Ashe and compare it to a "lambda" mages like Xerath and late game build look at how fast they can take down a tower.

Sir YamazukiJul 17, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Mages don't have that much turret dmg (Ziggs excepted for obvious reason)

Mages deal fair amount of damage to structures now. The only thing ADCs really beat them at would be Baron/Dragon, but even then, there are mages that can obliterate those faster than ADCs too. The only class that is weak at damaging structures or objectives as a whole are low damage threats like tanks and utility based supports. It seems odd tanks and utility champions have to suck at anything that isn't team fighting while anyone else can have wave clear, team fighting power, and objectives power in addition to everything else they got.

JmmanJul 17, 20173 votes

ROFL ROFL Ok.....

your telling me a mid mage can kill a turret about the same speed as an adc?

What are you smoking. Same with dragon and baron.

Yea I always here the jungle say " hey mid mage come over here so we can duo dragon"

AhristocatsJul 17, 20173 votes

there is none that can push as fast as lichbane TF

DrCyanideJul 17, 20175 votes

When a champion has an ability that grants them bonus attack speed (like TF's E) I'm inclined to say they lean more towards Marksman than Mage.

JmmanJul 17, 20171 votes

Tristana ???

You funny.... you know that as and ad add to autos. Let me tell you how much ap gets added. Plus Nasus can two shot turrets if you want to play the bronze game.

AhristocatsJul 17, 20172 votes

you kid do not know that a 6sloted tf with lichbane 800 ap and item 2139 bonus damage on tower, combined with his blue card and attack speed passive, tf can destroy a tower in literally 2 sec

JmmanJul 17, 20171 votes

800ap this is 40 plus mins into the game????

I'm talking about 99% of the game that end before 40 mins. Dang what tower are left at 40 plus mins. AND at full build NO ap is going to do more damage than an ADC to tower/ turrets/ or minions with item 3085

look up hyper poling

Kid rofl I'm 36 bro. Your killing with me smalls.

Sir YamazukiJul 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

ROFL ROFL Ok.....

your telling me a mid mage can kill a turret about the same speed as an adc?

"Mages deal fair amount of damage to structures now." Really going to ignore AP does scale into structure damage? Or how Ziggs deletes turrets? TF? Mages that can get Lich bane? Or how mages are fast at pushing waves compared to most ADCs which translates into tower damage?

{quoted} Yea I always here the jungle say " hey mid mage come over here so we can duo dragon

The only thing ADCs really beat them at would be Baron/Dragon, but even then, there are mages that can obliterate those faster than ADCs too.

Reading must be hard, right? I did say generally ADCs are better, but just like most rules there are exceptions. Heimer can solo both Dragon and Baron quicker than some teams. Not all mages are created equal. Just because someone like Lux can't kill Baron/Dragon doesn't mean no mage can.

The again I forgot, the current circle jerk is saying ADCs are better at tanking than tanks are, better at 'mageing' than mages are, better bruisers than bruisers are etc.

JmmanJul 17, 20173 votes

ROFL you pick TWO mages that have turret help and ignore the other 20 some AP casters.

and 50 damage plus 12 damage with one attack every 1.5 secs =/= 97 damage with 2 attacks per sec.

Sure the 72 looks close to 97 but then you are forgetting Attack speed. Oh news flash NOT ALL MAGES ARE META and can burst minions down. Heck I play Fiddlesticks it take late game or TWO casts of "E" to kill a minion wave. So what you have done is ignore 50% of the casters that have to burn a lot of mana just to clear waves and can't use the spells for poke or defensive and saying its = to right clicking or a meta mage and one spell the minions down.

Then you go on and cherry pick mages that are good at baron /dragon and putting things I never said into my mouth. But saying "not all mages are equal". This counters your whole point. I don't have to say anything but you will argue with yourself and lose. EPIC

Oh and you don't send the mage back to clear minions at the base you send your ADC.... why is that .....

HaIlMonitorJul 18, 20171 votes

Diana + item 3100 item 3115

LauchmelderJul 17, 20172 votes

Fair amount yes. But it's nowhere near comparable as ADCs tend to have a stat mages don't. Attack Speed

MuzétJul 18, 20171 votes

As I stated on another comment mages has damage certainly, in fact, fortunately they do. But they usually don't have enough AS/empowered autos to destroy it as fast as AD characters. They only reason why they can destroy it faster? Most of them got an easier time clearing the wave. It means that they're not the only one auto attacking the turret minions are doing a fair part of work in destroying down the turret. If it wasn't the case tell me why when you want to push a lane down and take a turret you and the enemy minion wave are coming you focus yourself on destroying it rather than auto attacking the turret?

BabyNaixJul 18, 20171 votes

Which is why no one wants to play tanks and utility supports. however some tanks like sion, galio, cho, does have pretty good wave clear even when build full tank. some supports like thresh are very fun.

SkiasJul 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Mages don't have that much turret dmg (Ziggs excepted for obvious reason)

AP does bonus damage on auto attacks to turrets. (Someone decided that was a good idea.)

JmmanJul 17, 20171 votes

And what % is that?

SkiasJul 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

And what % is that?

50%. It's a lot. So that combined with insane wave clear finished turrets very very fast. If it's a lichbane user, your turret is gone in seconds. It's been this way since like... 6.9 or earlier.

MuzétJul 18, 20171 votes

But the ratios are not enough when you don't have constant damage on basic attack. If they had higher AS: clear example of this is Diana who can melt tower down (AP + AS + Empowered Auto). It will be an issue if it was the case for every mages but it isn't right now.

SkiasJul 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But the ratios are not enough when you don't have constant damage on basic attack. If they had higher AS: clear example of this is Diana who can melt tower down (AP + AS + Empowered Auto). It will be an issue if it was the case for every mages but it isn't right now.

Well, I watched a veigar two shot a tower last night, so I think they are doing far better than ADCs at ripping towers.

MuzétJul 19, 20171 votes

Obviously it was past 40 minutes and he probably bought a lich bane

ZT XperimentorJul 17, 20173 votes

I miss the days before preseason six, when hurricane was niche and mages had sustainability.

Big LincolnJul 17, 20172 votes

where are bruisers supposed to sit on this spectrum

Illâoi Evê SiônJul 17, 20171 votes

Where they always have? A little bit of everything.

DivewingJul 17, 20171 votes

beginning to think you're a low key masochist with how much interest you have in bruises tbh..

Big LincolnJul 17, 20171 votes

only champs that are good but they are oppressed by riot

DivewingJul 18, 20171 votes

now you're sounding 3rd wave femenist

Trundle BundleJul 17, 20172 votes

You can crunch the numbers all sorts of ways to various biases, but the overall pattern seems to be pretty simple; a traditional 1-2 attack speed item ADC build has a decent lead over mages in taking down towers (about 1/4th of the mage's damage extra, per second) sans steroids, up until Rabadon's. If Rabadon's is built with a somewhat standard 6 item build, it starts to go into the mage's favor (again, sans steroids which change things with substantial volatility).

It isn't the .5 AP ratio that outscales here. It's the change that let towers be affected by damage pen. A traditional ADC won't have much pen relevant to tower armor. A mage is going to have a decent chunk.

But a deep lethality build like Draven, Lucian, MF, and Jhin are likely to use will outperform a season 1 style build in taking down a tower significantly after that last rework. Nearly twice as fast.

I don't feel like running the numbers to actually represent Trist/Jinx/TF/Diana style outliers all day, so yeah

QuephaJul 18, 20172 votes

There's no good reason that all members of a class need to have the exact same strengths and weaknesses. Those should instead be a champion-to-champion evaluation.