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Team Builder doesn't fulfill its fantasy for team captains. Here's how to fix it.

Hyrum Graff··45 votes·1,980 views

https://i.imgur.com/RL0XEJS.png

Team builder is an excellent option for players looking to solo queue, but it ultimately doesn't fulfill its fantasy for team captains.

*It feels more like Team **Assembler *than Team Builder.

In part because of queue times, in part because you can only turn down so many matches before you are required to wait several seconds per match, and in part because there are only basic options for roles, team captains don't have the freedom and the flexibility to run the comp of their choice without inviting several friends as a premade. *Even something as simple as a lane swap is difficult to do, *because nobody queues for "support | top."

#Here are my suggestions:

  • Make 'support' a checkbox instead of a role. There are mage supports, Tank supports, and traditional supports.

    • As team captain, I want the freedom to choose which I am matched with.

  • Allow players to queue for 'any lane.' Additionally allow them to queue for [Solo Lane | Duo Lane | 3+ lane]

  • As team captain, I want to search for the comp I want. Right now I need to find a meta comp, who I'll then ask to do a lane swap.

  • Allow solo players to [optionally] select up to 3 champions they would be comfortable playing (that all fulfill the same role in a team comp). Then let the team captain choose between those champs.

    • As team captain, I want to be able to pick champions who have synnergy. If I have a yasuo mid, I'm going to pick Janna support over Sona.

What do you guys think?

Cheers, Hyrum Graff

######Adapted from my comment here.

36 Comments

Quantum Weeb4 votes

I had an absolute nightmare just trying to set up a regular AoE comp. It wasn't anything even that off-meta, I was just picking any champ that had some AoE on them. As I turned people down, the timer got longer and people already in the builder left. In the end I had to do some massive compromisation just to get into the game.

Sir ArmaMalum3 votes

I especially like the last option, as I'm one of those people who doesn't mind switching up champions if it better fits my team. As a food for thought, I would also really like to see a feature that allows switching between champions in some form or fashion after entering a team. reason being is my choice of champion usually changes based on who the rest of my team picks. I'm a fill and damn proud of it, unfortunately TB doesn't allow for that easily.

A suggestion for the second idea is to also re-prioritize 'any lane' or 'fill' called players to lobbies that have 4 people. I don't know about anyone else but it's always that last slot that takes the longest, not to mention if everyone else has decided a role and champion, people like me (99% fill every game, I'm assuming I'm not the only one....hoping, lol) have a much easier time deciding what champion and set-up best complements the surrounding team.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

switching between champions in some form or fashion after entering a team

This was intentionally left out, because they were concerned about cases where someone picks an off-meta or weak champ, and the team says, "change your champ or we kick you."

If the last option were implemented, you could do some neat magic to fill: pick any lane, any role, and queue with 3 wildly different champs. So like, Renekton | Syndra | Caitlyn. The team captain will likely choose the normal champ for whatever lane you end up being found for.

When lobbies reach 4 people

Here's an idea: what if, when you solo queue up, there's an option where you can view lobbies of 4 that you're eligible to join, before queueing up? Then you pick a specific lobby and champ.

Frinall1 votes

I am a proud "fill" as well. There are times when I feel like playing a specific role, and team builder is great for that, but in order to "fill" in teambuilder I usually end up going support, as that is what is usually most in demand. Unfortunately, by doing this I lose the spontaneity that would have put me in an off role, like top or mid, when filling in draft. I'm sure many people would just say: "then play draft or blind pick!" But there is a different feel to team builder. When you get in to a game in team builder, people are happy with their roles, whereas in the other modes, even with one person filling, you still frequently get 2 or more people fighting over mid or top. I feel that "fill" is a role just like top or jungle or adc, and it got left in the cold when they made the new queue.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Yeah, I agree with this. I think adding in the in-demand roles went a long way towards this, but there's still work to be done. I think being able to queue for "Any Lane" and select a couple champs would be a step towards this.

As a long-term implementation of "fill" what would you think of this?

TB Features a "Fill button"

  • Puts you in queue for "Any Role | Any lane"
  • When you find a match, the Team Captain gets to see your champ pool (filtered by you ahead of time, so you don't end up playing a champ you hate) and select your champion.

I just decided to limit my initial idea to 3 for simplicity's sake, but it could obviously be more.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

Even something as simple as a lane swap is difficult to do, because nobody queues for "support | top."

This is a big indication for me that the system still needs work.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

How about (with the new request feature) the ability to request specific champs? (say im ADC and i want a leona, for example)

Hyrum Graff1 votes

IMO, that's getting a little specific and might have an unintended consequence of significantly lengthening queue times.

I feel like if you're looking for a tank-support, they'll all do a similar job to leona, in terms of team comp and how they work in lane.

edit: after thinking slightly more, there is some difference - for example, leona has much more hard engage than braum. It would be interesting if you could also specify things like "engage - support - tank - bot" or "poke - mage - mid",

Hyrum Graff1 votes

After thinking a little more about this, I think it's a good feature to have (say, if I want to have a knockup comp so I need yasuo). However, my concern about queue times remains, so I think it's something that should be developed, but not implemented until more people are using team builder.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

Well, what im looking at is the "request" addition to the queue. When getting on, you could look at the requests, and one might say "Leona support" or "Galio Mid" etc. anything that the leader might want. These would be filled faster, because someone would go "sure, ok"

to keep this simple, clicking such a request would remove it from the request queue (so it would need to be live updated). Perhaps you would be able to select the kind of requests you want to fill (i want to play brand, say, is anyone looking for a brand for any role?)(I want t jungle, who do people want for a jungler?) that kind of thing.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

i want to play brand, say, is anyone looking for a brand for any role?

For this, I think you'd just queue for Brand | Any Lane.

I want to jungle, who do people want for a jungler?

This is an interesting idea. I need some time to think on how I'd like to see it implemented.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

The problem with your solution to the first one, is that you will be put in a queue, say, as support brand, and immediately kicked out. This way, you can actually check if someone WANTS a Brand in specific position. Then you can decide if you want to play Brand in that position.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

In the particular example, I actually like brand support a lot.

In general, remember you'd also have an option for whether you wanted a solo lane (jg included) or a duo lane.

Pikalicious1 votes

Great ideas.

I definitely agree with your idea of making 'Support' a type of checkbox of additional information over any other sort of role. You can have Fighter Support like Regar, Tank Support like Blitz, Mage Support like Lulu, and then there are characters like Soraka and Sona who really can't be considered mages since they cannot perform any kind of significant laning dominance or damage to opposing champions.

Allowing players to match-make within the constraints of 'Fill/Any Lane' would optimize queue time for any team that can't seem to find that role that they desperately need.

An optional multi-champion option which a play may allow his leader to elect from is pure genius.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Allowing players to match-make within the constraints of 'Fill/Any Lane' would optimize queue time for any team that can't seem to find that role that they desperately need.

I would hope so! It's important to note that if this system were used, you'd have to provide more detailed queue options (like, are you ok with a 1v2 lane?)

multi-champ option

Thanks!

Lord Graves III1 votes

These are very solid features to try for. That duo mid roaming comp I wanted to try might finally get some traction. Or double jungle.

It might open up team builder to what we dreamed it could be. Upvoted.

Acidic Puddle1 votes

You can always not let the champions you dont want to have on your team join, that way you are building the team

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I know, and I do this. The problem is, starting at 6 declines, the system starts making you wait before it finds more matches for you. At 6 declines, you need to wait 1 second. By the time you reach 15 declines, it's 30 seconds (where it caps).

if I decline 10 midlaners, 5 top laners, 4 junglers, and 2 adcs to get the team comp I want (assuming I'm support), there's going to be a total of 4 minutes and 45 seconds of extra wait time (granted, some of that is happening at the same time, so it's probably closer to 3 minutes of additional wait time), on top of the already long queues.

Then you have to take into consideration that there may be some leavers (which also count towards your decline total -> more wait), and the longer you wait, the more likely you'll get leavers. It's also more likely that you'll get leavers if you want to try an off-meta comp, which you may end up declining more people in order to get, anyway.

You are correct: it is technically possible to actually build a team, as team captain. But it's not easy; I've tried, and I'm patient, but when you're in a 20-30 minute queue, even the best of us decide that we'd rather just get into a game.

tl;dr my changes aren't trying to introduce new functionality, but improve existing functionality.

March of Dimes1 votes

I think these all sound very cool. So long as the last one remains optional, I have no problem with them. If it was mandatory, I think players would get bullied into playing the champion in that set that's viewed as most viable, which imo ruins one of the big points of team builder - freedom to choose what you play.

Hyrum Graff6 votes

As I envisioned it, it would be optional. However, even if it weren't, there wouldn't be any opportunity to "bully" someone into playing the 'viable' champ - it would be "forced."

What I envisioned works like this:

  • I enter que, for mage mid. I choose viktor/xerath/brand as my 3 champs.
  • Team captain gets a match for mid, viktor/brand/xerath
  • Team captain wants a long-range poke comp, so he clicks xerath, then accept
  • I join the lobby as xerath
  • No further opportunity to change champs

It's no different in terms of the team captain deciding what champ you get to play, but it IS different from a player experience perspective, because nobody is yelling at you.

TecToNiiC1 votes

This would be amazing. Take all my upvotes

Edit: also an option to allow the captain to let the new member decide which of their 3 champs they want to play

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Thanks :D

Edit: also an option to allow the captain to let the new member decide which of their 3 champs they want to play

I'm having a tough time envisioning a time when this feature would be necessary. IMO, if you don't care about your team comp, you should be queueing solo, not as a team captain. If you do care, then you'd want to choose your team. Also,

If you're proposing that they choose before they enter the lobby (upon acceptance)

I'd argue if the new member has that much of a preference for which champ they want to play, they should just queue for only that champ.

If you're proposing that they choose after they join the team

I think this still has the problem of people being bullied into choosing the "strongest" champ.

Thoroniul1 votes

There also needs to be a way to select types of champions. Alot of times, i am in a position where i need an AD mid or heavy CC jungler. There should be a way to specify specific champions for different lanes. It would be like for mid i want Zed || Diana || Fizz or even better by their types of damage and attacks.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I think that more specific parameters are a good thing in the long run. However, I also think we run the risk of significantly lengthening queue times. Therefore, I think Riot should develop those features, but not release them until enough players are using team builder that we can still have reasonable queue times even with those restrictions.

thunderingice1 votes

I think the ideas are very interesting, but I think the biggest issue is that the playerbase in teambuilder is too small. After waiting 10-15 mins for a support/adc/jungler I generally am excited to take anything that isn't completely horrible just so I can start the game, and I certainly don't think that there will be a chance for me to experiment with the meta. It's too hard to find a full meta team. I think there would be more variety if there were more players and team captains. I would love to see your ideas, but you might also want to address how to increase the playerbase of teambuilder.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

#In General: I think that when team builder is a better experience, people will migrate over on their own.

#Specifically:

  • Queue times need to go down

    • I think having a support checkbox will go a long way towards this.
      • Currently finding a support is often the longest wait
      • Lyte has said that roughly even numbers of people main each role, so this should not be the case. Why is it the case?
      • Some supports queue as tank, or mage, or fighter.
      • When someone searches for a support | bot, these people aren't found.
      • Therefore, many people search for any | bot.
      • They get marksmen when they want supports -> longer queues.
    • When searching for a support lets you find any support, and only supports, search times should decrease.

  • Being a team captain needs to be a better experience. At least in TB solo queue, I can enter the lobby and then go do something else while I'm waiting for it to fill up. As a captain, I need to be on-call for usually 5-10 minutes. That's a lot to ask from someone who's currently basically an spam-accept-bot.

    • Currently, Team Builder's only advantages are:
      • Knowing your team comp ahead of time.
      • No instalocks / mid or feed / champ select conflicts
      • Getting your desired role
    • For a lot of people, this isn't enough to justify the extra couple minutes of queue time.

  • If Team builder also fulfilled its promise, Cool Team Comps, I think that would give people incentive to migrate over (and not just team captains - when you queue for yasuo mid, it's really cool to be placed into a knockup comp, but currently this is more likely to happen in blind pick than TB).

whompr1 votes

THese are great idears

Hyrum Graff1 votes

What do you call a deer with no eyes?

######No-eye deer!

More importantly, what do you call a deer with no eyes and no legs?

######Still no-eye deer!

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

make support a fun roie to play and bam problem soved atm damage dealing is the most fun and impactfull thing in the game simply because kills lead to objectives and cc requires a follow up

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I enjoy playing support.

Here's the thing, though: I remember when team builder first came out, long queue times to find a support was one of people's top concerns. Lyte said that there were actually roughly equal numbers of players who mained each role.

So, I'm not sure if the problem is with there not being enough supports, or with having a tough time finding them, because they queue as tanks, mages, fighters, etc.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

they checked solo q nobody plays supports when they go into normal

i enjoys support too but i dont enjoy it as much as mindfuckin ppl with zed

Danny Hyunsu Kim1 votes

This is a great idea. It would actually make people like me who love to troll others troll with the approval of the others that I am trolling and maybe even make that troll pick a kind of a new hidden OP. Or we all just laugh and say that the troll pick I picked was a bad idea to begin with instead of yelling at me for trolling in Normals.

SilverDrake1 votes

I feel like team builder needs to be the only normal queue because the queue times are still to long. Maybe right can try it out for one week end see what kind of feed back they get.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I think that soloQ times right now in team builder are pretty good, (especially for supports and adcs which tend to be MUCH faster than blind pick).

Times for team captains, on the other hand... well, I already talked about those in my OP.

Polemicist1 votes

I agree with this, mostly the bot lane support. Also being able to change your champion while you are searching for others would also help a lot, instead of quitting and starting over.

Icy Auron1 votes

I like all of it, especially the last part. If I'm queuing as support Galio, I want Ezreal or Kalista as my marksman. If I'm Thresh, I'd rather have someone like Varus or a traditional marksman. It can get annoying when I'm finally matched with a Kalista, only to be Thresh.

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