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So what is the status of Urgot's kit rework, he even need one now?

LoL Ergo Urgot··6 votes·43,018 views

The biggest reason I think (I THINK) riot wanted to rework him is because he was overbearing and he had a toxic kit because "I hit my acid, you be screwed bro" or "I missed my acid, hey now buddy, we can be friends right?".

Essentially, lack of counterplay. But some thoughts.

You know what has always jammed my acid hunters? A Nasus, who rushes frozen heart, then begins to out sustain me, as I watch my mana supply dwindle and his health remain the same. Chogath, Mundo (smart ones anyway), Malphite, ect.

Essentially, any tank, who builds tanky, with sustain (not necessary but a plus), will counter Urgot in lane. By the time I can get a last whisper, I have to shell in for some essentials: boots, tear, brutilizer, I can't rush that like they can rush armor.

But wait, the tank meta is back and they are strong now? What?!?!

Also, just to say this, Nocturne can be tough cookie too. His spell shield and fear is is able to disrupt the eqqq, and his stickiness can be a problem as well.

Now, if you want to rework Urgot's kit because you think there are cool things you can do with him, that there is a role which you want him to fill (for your quest of making every champion unique), or if there is some greater higher thingy that you have planned, by all means rework his kit, but not for sake that he lacks counter play.

I mean. let's not forget that he already tends to shove lanes, be susceptible to ganks, and has low mobility .

I am silver, so what do I know?

TLDR: Is Urgot still going to have a kit reowrk?

38 Comments

RiotMeddler14 votes

We're still planning to rework him. There's the low counterplay/binary performance you mentioned plus his passive lacks significant gameplay, his ult's not a good fit with the rest of his kit much of the time and there's a bunch of thematic space he's not taking full advantage of.

Hellioning4 votes

I don't mean to derail or anything but I think it's relevant; is the only reason that you're encouraging the same gameplay with Cass that you're trying to get Urgot away from (land one skill spam another) entirely because of her lack of range compared to him?

RiotMeddler10 votes

Yeah, range is a vital difference there. If Urgot got locked on Acid Hunters, but only on targets really near him, he wouldn't be anywhere near as much of an issue (or anywhere near as useful of course).

Jamnon18 votes

So... I dont want to sound rude but:

  1. Urgot's play style was binary and not thematic. And this is not ok.
  2. Cass's play style is binary and not thematic. And this is ok?

...what? :-/

Scampy3 votes

{quoted}

So... I dont want to sound rude but:

  1. Urgot's play style was binary and not thematic. And this is not ok.
  2. Cass's play style is binary and not thematic. And this is ok?

...what? :-/

Not to mention how insanely rude Stashu was to players during the rework with constant belittling and straight up lying.

Kingia17 votes

{quoted}

Not to mention how insanely rude Stashu was to players during the rework with constant belittling and straight up lying.

I hear all these things about him being rude and belittling others, but every comment I've ever read of Stashu's was extremely respectful and well-worded. :V

Bethor Kookalian5 votes

This is my experience as well.

Cuix3 votes

I agree that Stashu was impressively disingenuous and absolutely deserves distrust, but you basically just linked to a comment in which you were an ass to him while he was trying to be respectful and talkative. I don't like the guy at all, but you're not making a good case here.

Hellioning2 votes

Hmm. I guess that's reasonable.

My main question, then, is what you're gonna replace it with. Canister to Acid hunter is basically what happens when you think of 'Urgot' so I think you're gonna need to do a Sion level reimagining if that's the problem with him.

RiotMeddler15 votes

Odds are very high he'll be a Sion level project. As far as really large gameplay reworks go though Poppy's almost certainly going to come out before Urgot.

Freljordan1 votes

How close are we in a range from very close to a long looooong ways off from seeing the next big level rework shipped? Just curious

Wolfy212 votes

{quoted}

Odds are very high he'll be a Sion level project. As far as really large gameplay reworks go though Poppy's almost certainly going to come out before Urgot.

Hey. First of all, love that. I love what you did with Sion and I think many champions deserve that. Second of all is any VU planned for Malphite?

Ritual1 votes

poppy has the most annoying ultimate @#$%!!!!

Abyssphere3 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, range is a vital difference there. If Urgot got locked on Acid Hunters, but only on targets really near him, he wouldn't be anywhere near as much of an issue (or anywhere near as useful of course).

How the hell is it OK for Cass to be binary just because she's short-ranged? Urgot would be less of a lane bully with Cass's range, sure, but he'd still be a 100% binary champion and that is exactly what Cassiopeia is right now.

You guys need to seriously get some consistency with your champ design values, because being binary should not be a reason to rework one champion but a design goal in another.

Constable Bunu1 votes

Cass has to put herself in greater danger than Urgot to do significant damage. Urgot can also efficiently build both defensive and offensive stats and still do crap tons of damage to squishies and tanks. Cass doesn't have the luxury of having convenient defensive itemization. The most you could get is Rylai's, Zhonya's, ROA, or Abyssal Scepter/Void Staff (I can never remember which is which, I'm trying to refer to the item that gives AP and MR with the MR reduction passive). All of these are tanky options, but nowhere near as tanky as Urgot can and should be.

Furthermore, Cass' kit is much more coherent and well defined. She is a short range sustained damage mage, like Ryze. She does more damage than Ryze but is less tanky. Her ult is self peel and she has a little cc and mobility in her kit (MS boost on Q, slow on W). Urgot has no proper comparisons except Cass. Urgot has a permaslow that is dependent on his shield holding (reason Skarner was nerfed, I mean reworked). He has a long range point and click ability that does absurd damage to squishies with few damage items. His ultimate is counter-intuitive to the rest of his kit. Everything else has decent to long range, but his ultimate requires him to be really close to the enemy.

Cassiopeia has well defined strengths and weaknesses, has a defined power curve, and a cohesive kit. Nothing in her kit screams abuse case. Cass is stronger than most champs in lane pre-6, but loses power once laning is over. She doesn't really become strong again until 3-4 completed items. She is a hyper carry, the magic damage version of Caitlyn or Tristana. To speak more toward the Urgot comparison, she puts herself in danger to output her damage. She can throw out poison from range, sure, but a lot of champs have AoE abilities with decent range. Not only that, she isn't reliant on one ability to set up her poison, she has 2 abilities for that. Beyond even that, having poison on a target does not change the function of Twin Fangs, it just comes off of cooldown much faster. Binary gameplay is not bad by itself, it's when a champ is either useless or OP as hell based on one skillshot that makes them toxic. Cass does not become OP as hell when she lands poison. She becomes strong, yes, but she still has all the same issues as other immobile mages like Brand (a champion who doesn't scale as well and has just as conjunctional gameplay, though not binary).

Urgot has situational strengths and weaknesses. In lane, he is strong if you hit the Corrosive Charge since you can then spam Acid Hunters at your opponent. This is true at any stage of the game. Corrosive Charge hit means tons of damage. The reason Urgot is being reworked is because his kit is very disfunctional. If you hit your E and your W shield is holding, you have a single target permaslow with greater range than Caitlyn's AA's, not to mention it's SINGLE TARGET POINT AND CLICK WITH GREATER RANGE THAN CAITLYN (and Kog'Maw). Single target abilities have lower ranges because they don't miss. The fact that hitting an ability changes the baseline functionality of one of your abilities and makes it objectively broken and overpowered is why it's both binary and toxic. This is the reason Ryze was nerfed like he was.

TL;DR Urgot is binary and toxic because his kit fundamentally changes and becomes objectively overpowered when he hits one skillshot and his ultimate contradicts the rest of his kit. Cass is binary and NOT toxic because she her kit is cohesive and fair. She does not fundamentally change as a champion when a single ability hits, she only becomes better at the same thing.

TheFrozenIsles1 votes

Well said.

Just a few thing I what to add to this as well. You talk about Urgot slow on his W(winch is a lot hard to get down now with it working with his mana) but you forgot to talk about his pass (reduce all damage that his target deals by 15% for 2.5 seconds.) winch works with his Q as well and that his E all so have armor reduced for the full dot.So if he hit people with this it not just helping your self but your team as well as your enemy's will be doing less damage and be easier to kill for AD teammates.

Cass cant do any thing like that.All she got is damage output and a stun that only works if they are facing you.

Terff1 votes

To me the thing that makes cass toxic is her passive imo, it has awkward power spikes and can turn her from being behind to far ahead and is very un-interactive.

DynamiteGazelle1 votes

What if you shortened the range of the lock-on, but made every enemy locked get hit?

LoL Ergo Urgot2 votes

Thank you for your response :)

I am excited to see where you take him and as Viktor says, "Adapt or be removed"

IllumanatiObama1 votes

Thank's for the update Meddler. I do agree that Urgot is missing something.

ItsStout1 votes

I feel like the interesting case with him is that he's fine balance wise, but has a crap kit, as opposed to "other" champions (IE Poppy).

So basically you can wait on the rework for longer than others.

TotalJerk3 votes

Damn shame if you get rid of his ult. I like how it seems terrible on paper, but is really disruptive in the hands of the right player.

CoolKnightST1 votes

What if they change it to a regular ability on a short cooldown. Would make some funny kite actions ^^

RiotMeddler7 votes

I don't personally feel the ult's a bad spell. On a champion with an otherwise ranged focus kit and other gameplay problems however I don't feel it works. If we do decide it's best to take it off Urgot (which is what I'd expect) I'd be inclined to then see if there are other champions (new or other reworks) it would be a good match for.

Jeddy0171 votes

Yeah,like putting it on a tank.

Terff1 votes

Well what would you think about having it if urgot was a melee bruiser who wanted to get into the middle of a fight similar to his lore. Or would you rather keep him a ranged bully?

RiotMeddler4 votes

Melee kit's definitely the way to go. I'd be much more inclined to put it on a tank than a bruiser though, given it puts the caster into the enemy team to lock them down and the target into the enemy team to be killed, both of which are tank plays. A bruiser by contrast wants to be killing (or at least helping kill) the target themselves.

Terff1 votes

Ah, I was thinking about maybe putting it in as a sort of kamikaze ability for a strong AOE bruiser to get into a teamfight and deal a nice amount of damage to the whole team before dying somewhat similar to what karthus does. But i could see how that could lead to a somewhat unhealthy gameplay.

Abelarka1 votes

Pls dont ruin this unique champ by making him yet another melee giant no brain hulk.... the acid hunter is a thing that can be thematically intriguing and we Urgot players love to spam our Qs! If the "nUrgot" is that lame thing we can see in the Ekko cinematic video, you guys are just working to make a boring copy of a Sion. I personally think that Urgot works flawlessly in solo lanes as an anti-carry showstopper (midlane for instance) being some kind of unique ranged assassin. If he got unpopular because of its ugly looking style, people still can leave him and play champs like Yasuo.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Melee kit's definitely the way to go. I'd be much more inclined to put it on a tank than a bruiser though, given it puts the caster into the enemy team to lock them down and the target into the enemy team to be killed, both of which are tank plays. A bruiser by contrast wants to be killing (or at least helping kill) the target themselves.

Hey look, an old topic.

If you guys did end up sticking Urgot's Ult on someone else, might I suggest a Void Tank focused on creating Void Portals to move around allies/enemies and redirect attacks?

Tortferngatr2 votes

Hmm. I know his passive lacks significant gameplay on its own, but the concept of "dealing damage to a target reduces their damage output" could make for an interesting support or tank defensive item--I know at the very least that Subjugation was an interesting item in Dawngate.

If Urgot's passive were removed, would you support putting its effect on an item?

Hommi71 votes

Yes! I really love the passive but it seems so "Lame" in comparison to other passives. Sure, its neat, but think about it twice. Some Champs get stacks. Some get a second wind. Some obliterate with it. And he... debuffs enemies? It is cool, but not with his Kit. He is somewhat of a long-range chaser, not one, who hits every enemy once so a teamfight gets easier. He can burst single targets and i think, that this would be the better direction. A Support/tank item, which lowers enemies attacks? Beautiful! "The enemy ADC is fed" "Get a XYZ so he doesnt kill me instant, please" and it is good for denying farm, as many players will not be able to predict last hits with that.

Xeranis Azourael1 votes

{quoted}

...plus his passive lacks significant gameplay, his ult's not a good fit with the rest of his kit much of the time and there's a bunch of thematic space he's not taking full advantage of.

Regarding his Passive, I suggest moving his current Damage Reduction Passive to his W, move the Slow from his W to his E, and move the Armor Reduction from his E to be his new Passive.

As for his Ult, since he's the champ that looks closest to an actual TANK (well, his BC skin, anyways), I suggest either an ult similar to Jinx/Caitlyn , in terms of the ult's range (or perhaps half Jinx's ult range, like KogMaw/Lucian/Lux), visuals (Jinx tank bullet), & effects, or the ult's visuals to be a bigger version of his green energy AA, similar to Jayce's Shock Blast (Q) going through Acceleration Gate (E), but the AOE explosion has a DoT effect like Viktor's ult, but only for the duration of the expansion/explosion to the collapse/implosion, and also homes/locks-on like Acid Hunter.

Nickaragua1 votes

As long as he/it is still a mana building, armour shreading bruiser than im ok with it

Hommi71 votes

Dear god i beg you - leave his E and his Q and leave him ranged. I only bought him, because this combo is so beautiful and interesting to play. His Ult doesn't fit him and his W could be tweaked, maybe change his passive - but the whole "I locked you, i see you i chase you and i spam my rockets on you!"-Part is so fun to play! When i see a Kha'zix ganking me and E him, he is running away and even if he ults i can predict his movements and the locking rockets wreck him. Maybe make his Ult a self-buff or some kind of improved Q? Something like Rumbles ult but fired from his arm? Maybe just some kind of a high-speed burst of many less-damaging Qs? or maybe remove Q and E and make his ult a low-CD, chasing Rocket-Cluster? I just really love poking with the combo, as you can see_ and.... yes. Please dont make him a melee. I know it is better for his lore, but just watch that Blob. He was patched up from his corpse, he cant barely move... It would be just silly if he PUNCHES enemies.

Another idea would be, that his passive somehow locks the targets. Or gives his Q more usefulness. Maybe... "Every 3rd/5th/7th Acid hunter slows his target/lowers armor" or something like this? But as i said - What you almost instantly think about when you say Urgot is a nightmare with pokes.

Flare the Theif1 votes

/╲/\╭(ರ益ಥ)╮/\╱\ + build path change item 3044 ------> item 3071 + summoner 6 =OP, needs MLG skin with doritos q's with hitmarker/noscope sounds mtn dew e, haters guna hate sunglasses? for w

7ha7guy7771 votes

Urgot item 3071 Yo dawg i heard you like armor shred So i'm gonna shred your armor while i shred your armor

0Silverfang1 votes

Honestly they are reworking his kit because he is disjointed. And, as an urgot player, they are right. "I can attack you at obscene ranges, now let me get right up in your face." His ult is what I think they are targeting, even though it is very unique. maybe also his passive.

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