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I don't play Veigar, but...

Silven··63 votes·3,437 views

I was just playing a game as Udyr jungle, and what I saw in midlane was nothing short of pitiful.

Whatever fantasy existed of scaling into the lategame with 1k AP poofed into nothingness. Our Ahri was absolutely dominating him. Even I had absolutely no trouble with his cage. When I saw the indicator, either I simply dashed through it to catch up, or I took my time around it and ended up where I wanted anyway. Think I got stunned maybe twice in the entire game.

When I first heard of the Veigar changes, I was quite glad to hear that we'd finally be getting some meaningful chances at countering his kit, but when I compare it to what it is now I believe the Q changes should have been enough to put him in a correct spot.

I am personally for reducing the delay to his E to 0.5s, maybe even 0.25. In my opinion, the point of the indicator should be to not get stunned immediately and not to allow the enemy to quite easily waltz out of the entire area before any danger hits. It should be very possible for Veigar to lock someone in his cage, even if they don't run into the walls. With his Q and W to dodge in the confined space, it puts both Veigar and the enemy to the test.

To all the Veigar players out there. I feel you. I really do.

38 Comments

Baron of Bread23 votes

The problem I see with the change is dodging his stun is not so much counterplay but not making a mistake. He shouldn't have to rely on me messing up really badly; Veigar has never felt like a reactive champion to me. Veigar should be similar to a walking kill zone, not someone that walks around hoping that you let him kill you.

Nucleophilic atk12 votes

I was playing Cait against a Veigar. Did not get stunned 1 time the entire game. His stun sucks ass now lol.

Serenity Now11 votes

I'd suggest changing the ability into more of a black hole as the name, Event Horizon, suggests.

That is, remove the delay and stun, replacing it with a movement speed buff/debuff. You gain move speed when moving towards the center, and lose move speed when moving away from the center. The strength of the movement speed buff/debuff depends on your distance from the center.

So ideally, he lands the center of Event Horizon right on top of you, so the slow effect is maximized no matter which direction you are moving, and then drops a Dark Matter.

Adewale021 votes

Great idea, actually.

Silven1 votes

+1, this is really interesting.

Blacksteel155 votes

Neat idea, but Veigar is such a glass cannon that he relies on his stun to be able to use his other skills safely. Without a stun mechanic or reworking of his other skills, anyone with a dash, dodge, etc would eat him alive as soon as he approached to use his other skills.

Silven3 votes

Maybe getting to the center of the black hole could stun the enemy instead? They'd have to think about making their escape rather than going for Veigar... Or something.

Blacksteel154 votes

That's an interesting idea. Or maybe LEAVING the area could cause a stun - you'd still have some autonomy but Veigar would still have a defensive mechanic.

Serenity Now1 votes

These are good suggestions.

The key thought here is that with Veigar being an immobile squishy, he needs to be compensated with some form of escape mechanic that isn't simply hard CC. A good example of this is Cassiopeia's MS buff and debuff.

Chespin20131 votes

hows that any different from viktors w

Mohrb3 votes

Even with instant cast, you have to HIT with those walls to affect people... with so many jumps and dashes (even before flashes), the cage doesn't really hold any modern champions. New windup cage works fine against bots.... not people.

And the Q nerf... bleh. Yes, it has the capacity to gain AP faster and do more damage... but now you're yet another champion blocked by creep waves.

How's about we limit Yasuo's pokes to be blocked by creeps too! And Kat... When she spins, she'll throw out projectiles only at the three closest targets... any creeps in the area=safe team.

Serenity Now1 votes

I'm thinking the MS debuff should be really strong at the center, almost to the point of being a snare.

Veigar would need to keep track of when an opponent used their mobility and save Event Horizon for afterwards. It's like saving your hard CC for when Katarina ults. Champions with chained mobility are still an issue, but at least not all champions with mobility.

So if an opponent dashes on Veigar, he can drop a centered W, create a little distance, and drop the rest of his combo. If that is still not enough, perhaps granting Veigar a MS buff based on the number of opponents caught in Event Horizon could be considered.

Blacksteel152 votes

The thing a lot of people who aren't frequent Veigar players don't understand is just how squishy he is. As old Veigar, you would use your stun on top of yourself when enemies came a-knockin' because you were dead in about 1-2 seconds otherwise. Given champs who can drop literally right on top of you like Ahri, Talon, Xin, Shaco, Elise, etc, a soft disengage probably wouldn't actually help him much because he'd be dead before he could open up enough space to prevent people from hitting him. Not to mention slow/disengage doesn't do much to champions who don't need to be in melee range to kill you, which is a problem with certain assassins and just as big a problem with trying to get in range to cast your skills on someone without them killing you first. Veigar is a glass cannon through and through.

JedenVojak1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serenity Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YspLYOYi,comment-id=000100020002,timestamp=2015-02-26T14:15:45.219+0000)

I'm thinking the MS debuff should be really strong at the center, almost to the point of being a snare.

Veigar would need to keep track of when an opponent used their mobility and save Event Horizon for afterwards. It's like saving your hard CC for when Katarina ults. Champions with chained mobility are still an issue, but at least not all champions with mobility.

So if an opponent dashes on Veigar, he can drop a centered W, create a little distance, and drop the rest of his combo. If that is still not enough, perhaps granting Veigar a MS buff based on the number of opponents caught in Event Horizon could be considered.

I only played Viegar once before the change, so I'm not really a expert, but if your opponent dashes on you, and you drop the stun wall on yourself and try to back off, your opponent can just follow you out of the stun - Viegar is slow.

Ariaflux1 votes

I'd suggest changing the ability into more of a black hole as the name, Event Horizon, suggests.

I just wanna say that actually edge stunning makes a lot more sense for the name as event horizon is the edge of the black hole. I found the correlation quite cool.

A black hole skill will be more like this guy.

Fried Noob3 votes

Yeah, I don't know why the stun delay is so long. I'm fine with it getting a delay, as it allows you to counter it without having to rush an expensive item, but 0.75 secs is too damn long.

Silven1 votes

Like I said, I feel like the only reason for having a delay should be to not get instastunned by a Veigar with any fair amount of skill. 0.75s simply gives you way too much time to make a whole escape, rather than to know where the wall is and rather get trapped inside his cage than in his stun. I feel like being trapped in Veigar's E is like a minigame of "dodge the spells in a small area", which is why I said both Veigar and the enemy will show what they got.

disregardable1 votes

Still not as bad the Zilean nerfs.

Nucleophilic atk3 votes

Lol what? Zilean actually feels useful to me now.

disregardable1 votes

Every single one of his abilities got nerfed in every way possible, so I'm not sure how you could feel that way.

Nucleophilic atk7 votes

Q: Now a skill shot that sticks to people. Sure, a nerf from point and click, but the hit marker is pretty big. It also has a shorter delay before exploding, meaning less chance to get healed by Sona's CD. It does slightly less damage, and cost slightly less mana. AND IT FUCKING STUNS. It also has more range

Overall Q: buff.

W: I guess nerf?

E: 99% 2.5 second slow. Also has less CD and less mana.

Overall E: big buff.

R: Nerfed duration but shorted CD by 66%

I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see how he was gutted.

disregardable2 votes

Let me correct you.

Q: Now a skill shot that sticks to people if they actually stand there long enough to let it. Sure, a nerf from point and click, but the hit marker is slightly bigger than a xerath ult. It also has a shorter delay before exploding, meaning you are guaranteed to almost never hit 2 at once. It does slightly less damage, and cost slightly less mana. AND if you do the impossile and hit 2 at once on moving players IT FUCKING STUNS. Its AOE has more range, but the actual targeting range is significantly smaller.

Overall: Bigger nerf than Veigar's "cage" got. Destroyed Zilean's harass and all his damage.

E: 69% 2.5 slow only after the first 2 levels, because the game's movement speed softcap prevents slows less than that.

Overall: Halved duration for 20% extra slow (and no benefit at all during lower levels), when it was already slow enough? Big nerf.

R: Nerfed duration, taking away the one thing he had left to make him useful at all, and CD by taking away W.

Overall: Gutted. No harass. No utility. Extremely frustrating to play.

Nucleophilic atk3 votes

Considering you will be able to Q, W, Q and hit two bombs just as before, I am not sure how you think you won't be able to hit 2 bombs at once. You are probably doing something wrong. If you think this was a bigger nerf than Veigar's stun, you are doing something wrong.

disregardable2 votes

"You will"? Have you not played it yet? That's explains it. Zilean was my favorite support, the only support I actually liked. He was strong at what he did well, but he had very clear weaknesses. I don't know why Riot wrecked him, but they absolutely wrecked him more than Veigar.

BetaDude402 votes

He's not your favorite support.

You've trolled on so many threads it's stupid.

You're saying he's your favorite support and that you hate the buffs given to him just to garner a negative response from him.

Nobody post to this guy anymore, he just wants to argue and cause a disruption rather than have a discussion

Cuz19721 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YspLYOYi,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-26T00:06:10.420+0000)

"You will"? Have you not played it yet? That's explains it. Zilean was my favorite support, the only support I actually liked. He was strong at what he did well, but he had very clear weaknesses. I don't know why Riot wrecked him, but they absolutely wrecked him more than Veigar.

You haven't played him in over 3 weeks. Shut up.

disregardable1 votes

That one is actually almost true. I cut back on playing him when the nerf announcement hit PBE. Tried out some other supports, like Kayle and Lulu. When that failed, just stopped playing support. The people in my queue pretty much hate me, especially when I'm last pick.

Crett1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YspLYOYi,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-25T23:51:57.616+0000)

Let me correct you.

Q: Now a skill shot that sticks to people if they actually stand there long enough to let it. Sure, a nerf from point and click, but the hit marker is slightly bigger than a xerath ult. It also has a shorter delay before exploding, meaning you are guaranteed to almost never hit 2 at once. It does slightly less damage, and cost slightly less mana. AND if you do the impossile and hit 2 at once on moving players IT FUCKING STUNS. Its AOE has more range, but the actual targeting range is significantly smaller.

Overall: Bigger nerf than Veigar's "cage" got. Destroyed Zilean's harass and all his damage.

E: 69% 2.5 slow only after the first 2 levels, because the game's movement speed softcap prevents slows less than that.

Overall: Halved duration for 20% extra slow (and no benefit at all during lower levels), when it was already slow enough? Big nerf.

R: Nerfed duration, taking away the one thing he had left to make him useful at all, and CD by taking away W.

Overall: Gutted. No harass. No utility. Extremely frustrating to play.

Play the public beta. The slow practically guarantees a stun unless they have some sort of dash or blink.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Which so many of the FotM champs have...

Crett1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YspLYOYi,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-02-26T23:07:40.476+0000)

Which so many of the FotM champs have...

Yeah you're right. And if it's Zed he'll just turn around and implode you

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YspLYOYi,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-25T23:51:57.616+0000)

Let me correct you.

Q: Now a skill shot that sticks to people if they actually stand there long enough to let it. Sure, a nerf from point and click, but the hit marker is slightly bigger than a xerath ult. It also has a shorter delay before exploding, meaning you are guaranteed to almost never hit 2 at once. It does slightly less damage, and cost slightly less mana. AND if you do the impossile and hit 2 at once on moving players IT FUCKING STUNS. Its AOE has more range, but the actual targeting range is significantly smaller.

Overall: Bigger nerf than Veigar's "cage" got.

You know nothing, child.

Mohrb1 votes

Test it yourself. Max rank is a 2.5 second, fairly short range 68% slow for enemies or a 2.5 second 60% speed boost for allies. It doesn't slow NEARLY as much as nasus' wither, and as a buff, it's not on long enough for people to notice it on them and use it. You'll still never catch a nidalee or a fizz.

As for the double bombs stunning now... good luck. You have to hit the same target 2 times within 3 seconds... and a good chunk of that time is the bomb traveling. Really only have about 1 second to react to your first bomb hitting, rewind it and hope you can hit your second.

Animush1 votes

How is q buff? Previous q could go through unlimited amount of minions. It REALLY matters in teamfights and lane. Enemy carry can just hide behind minions like from lux q or blitz hook and get 0 harrass...

luxî1 votes

You just sound like a angry child who used to always get stunned by Veig and now you want his stun to be 0.25 seconds before it actually stuns you LOL.

BetaDude404 votes

I don't follow.

If he always gets stunned, wouldn't it mean he would want a greater delay until it stuns someone?

Silven2 votes

I don't get it either... And it's true. When playing against Veigar I did get frustrated of his instant, sometimes even multi-hitting stun I could not dodge or see coming.

But now, this is just sad to watch. A Veigar barely has any means of defending himself anymore now that the cage is so easily dodged, and we all know what happens to immobile mages who lose their disengage. They disappear faster than leggings at a Black Friday firesale.

SanKakU1 votes

I don't have a problem landing my walls. I just level it up last since it doesn't deal damage so I have plenty of time to study the movements of my opponents before I start letting them have it. Until this patch I refused to buy Veigar even though I loved him as a character. He just didn't scale well enough into the late game. I bought him though now and I'm loving him.

Rikari1 votes

His stun has an indicator now? GG

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