@Meddler, as always you give us informations about balance

KONO RUBICK DA·Oct 21, 2015·8 votes·6,740 views

And as always, the whole balance team never talks about how marksmen are 100% needed in the game.

like.... can you at least tell us something? will you try to do something? can it be balanceable? can other late game classes be picked instead? do you at least think that it's a problem?

the only thing that we got in 5 years is repertoir asking us why they are 100% needed, and the whole community told it clearly we can't push ithout them. give us the Black market item that can push? can you buff zz or ohmwrecker?.

88 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirOct 22, 201519 votes

We don't currently have definitive plans to make marksmen less necessary. I know players seem to want this, but it's actually not clear to me exactly how they want it.

For instance, they could want this so that they can lane less traditional champions in a duo lane. They could want us to make a large number of other characters really powerful turret killers. They could want a bunch sustained physical damage casters (like physical damage Karthus or something). Or it could be any of a number of other reasons.

Basically, it's unclear, to me at least, why exactly it's more ideal for marksmen to be less important. This may not be the perfect example, but football teams have quarterbacks on every team, and that seems to be perfectly satisfactory there.

For what it's worth, I'm not saying I personally think it wouldn't be be more interesting if marksmen were less necessary. I'm just not sure I understand what the intended outcome is, and why that outcome is more desirable.

ArchenzOct 22, 20153 votes

I think its because your currently harassed in champ select if you don't pick an adc.

And as long as adc's are the absolute must of every team, then diversity wont be as big. Which is something your all keen on right? We have enough strong split pushers, like trundle, gp, tryn.

I think what we need is something to fill the gap of adc, like you said, an ad type karthus, or an adc whos autos deal magic damage through a passive but still build through ad or something.

DemiluniSOct 22, 20153 votes

Arent you getting harassed if you're not picking support?! What this argument have to do with anything? And why do you need something to feel the gap if you have like 20 champions to this specific role?!

Chromatic EagleOct 22, 20153 votes

You're also harassed for not having a jungler.

AMYS GRAVEOct 22, 20152 votes

an adc whos autos deal magic damage through a passive but still build through ad

oh careful with that. AD is generally more powerful, and MR is more expensive, so the counter-itemization becomes problematic. Also then you are in the awkward position of needing randuins to deal with magic damage crits, but not actually giving any meaningful MR.

Kitten of EvilOct 22, 20154 votes

the awkward position of needing randuins to deal with magic damage crits, but not actually giving any meaningful MR.

Anivia knows this all too well.

Talith PAOct 22, 20159 votes

Wildcat offense. There should be the option to run without a marksman.

is that foxOct 22, 20154 votes

There is an option.

Play double bruiser. Try it I'm serious.

People have no idea wtf to do against you, you're not playing in LCS, you don't need to copy it.

Talith PAOct 22, 20152 votes

It doesn't work at the level I play at because players have a lot more respect for bruisers and their early kill potential and so aren't going to be feeding any kills.

Instead, I'm more interested in seeing high DPS APs or carry melees beyond Mordekaiser enter that space.

HellioningOct 22, 20159 votes

Because it's the only class of champions in which that is the case.

You always need a top/mid/jungle/support, yes, but those could be of varying champion class. Mid can be mages or assassins, top lane can be fighters or tanks, supports could be pure supports or tanks, jungle can be basically everything. Meanwhile, the 'farming role in bot lane' is always a marksman (unless it's Morde.)

RiotRiotRepertoirOct 22, 20159 votes

This is the opinion I expected to hear from most people on this subject, and the one that I personally resonate pretty strongly with.

To me personally, I don't necessarily have an issue with marksmen except for their relative monopoly over the duo lane carry position. It's possible that this would be meaningfully alleviated to me if marksmen didn't feel so "same-y" to play as/against (I know there are ad mains out there that will disagree wholly with this).

That said, the idea of bringing your tank, mage, or fighter as a duo lane farmer is definitely an exciting prospect, though I think we're a long way from that at the moment.

IcyPepperOct 22, 20158 votes

That said, the idea of bringing your tank, mage, or fighter as a duo lane farmer is definitely an exciting prospect, though I think we're a long way from that at the moment.

I know this is going to be controversial to say, but I think Morde is the prime prototype of what could possibly be. To be honest, I'm not sure the juggernaut rework was a success and I honestly think a new champion should have been introduced instead, but this can serve as a learning experience for future (and hopefully more successful) attempts.

The problem with Morde, imo, is that he's either useless or overbearing in the bot lane. The exp passive is rather tacked on I feel, but I feel like a similar mechanic can work in the future with the same goal: teamwork.

Basically, marksman are kind of weak on their own early game, but are strong when partnered with a support. Sure, it's easier to land skillshots when the enemy is cc'd by any class, but champions like Draven or Vayne get the most "oomph" out of it. I think that can be applied to future champions of any class, designed around having a partner early game and team orientated late-game just like ADC's, but not turned into another utility mage or tank that goes bot lane. Maybe something like a champion that can chain cc with other champions (not themselves), or naturally reduces critical damage, or whatever else.

I feel like it is possible. If ADC's can go top lane, sometimes mid, and nowadays even jungle, I think it's time we accept that some of them are capable of solo laning, and make it so bot lane is more accessible instead of just booting ADC's out of the game. Not that I'm accusing you guys of anything.

Also Doran's shield should probably be looked at.

Sire HippingtonOct 22, 20152 votes

not really, morde is in no way different from anny other bruiser lane, he relys on cheese stuff(W-xp and dragon) to snowball early, and if he can't, he falls off hard compared to an adc. His Powercurve is porbably the most extreme in the game http://champion.gg/champion/Mordekaiser/ADC from 70% win at 0-25min straigh down to 48.2% win at 40+min

DaenOct 22, 20152 votes

Also Doran's shield should probably be looked at.

As in it's currently too weak or too strong?

KONO RUBICK DAOct 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This is the opinion I expected to hear from most people on this subject, and the one that I personally resonate pretty strongly with.

To me personally, I don't necessarily have an issue with marksmen except for their relative monopoly over the duo lane carry position. It's possible that this would be meaningfully alleviated to me if marksmen didn't feel so "same-y" to play as/against (I know there are ad mains out there that will disagree wholly with this).

That said, the idea of bringing your tank, mage, or fighter as a duo lane farmer is definitely an exciting prospect, though I think we're a long way from that at the moment.

so, i don't get it. the goal of the balance is to make everyone not picked 100%. if zed is so overpowered like in s3 that he was an autopick (was never banned) he should be nerfed and was nerfed.

the problem is that i want to be able to pick my kind of carry if i go bot, if adc is the only role left i want to pick tryndamere or jax bot if i want because i hate playing squishy carries who stay behind and i can't, isn't your role to balance it so we can all pick what we want?. we can already play whatever we want top or mid, and sometime play troll support like trundle

so you should make them less oppressive in 2v2 so we can lane against them, buff doran shield for example

OR give us a way to deal with towers.

DaenOct 22, 20153 votes

the goal of the balance is to make everyone not picked 100%

The goal of balance is to ensure the game is welcoming to many different styles of play, at its core. Pickrates have very little to do with it, especially in cases like Thresh (very popular but not the highest winrate/impact support), other than extreme outliers like the Zed example you mentioned.

Balancing around rough win rate isn't actually the goal, it just happens to be one of the byproducts of effective balancing. A great example of this is Azir; his win rate is horrible if viewing the entire playerbase (less than 45%), but if you only look at people that are super dedicated to the champion his win rate becomes extremely high (greater than 55%).

isn't your role to balance it so we can all pick what we want?

This is a complicated question. One of the goals of balance is to make sure lots of strategies are viable, sure, but at the same time it's very difficult to have compelling gameplay if the game is balanced around "you can play anyone anywhere". Champions have distinct strengths and weaknesses, and it's this imbalance that actually makes League of Legends so much fun.

Jax, for example, excels at dueling, and that's basically his entire identity. Would it be within the game's best interest to weaken that identity in order to allow him to duo lane, or should Jax stay unique in his role and excel where he was designed to? Tryndamere is an extremely strong 1v1 tower diver and splitpusher, should he be homogenized so that he can also do acceptably in a duo lane?

KONO RUBICK DAOct 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The goal of balance is to ensure the game is welcoming to many different styles of play, at its core. Pickrates have very little to do with it, especially in cases like Thresh (very popular but not the highest winrate/impact support), other than extreme outliers like the Zed example you mentioned.

Balancing around rough win rate isn't actually the goal, it just happens to be one of the byproducts of effective balancing. A great example of this is Azir; his win rate is horrible if viewing the entire playerbase (less than 45%), but if you only look at people that are super dedicated to the champion his win rate becomes extremely high (greater than 55%).

This is a complicated question. One of the goals of balance is to make sure lots of strategies are viable, sure, but at the same time it's very difficult to have compelling gameplay if the game is balanced around "you can play anyone anywhere". Champions have distinct strengths and weaknesses, and it's this imbalance that actually makes League of Legends so much fun.

Jax, for example, excels at dueling, and that's basically his entire identity. Would it be within the game's best interest to weaken that identity in order to allow him to duo lane, or should Jax stay unique in his role and excel where he was designed to? Tryndamere is an extremely strong 1v1 tower diver and splitpusher, should he be homogenized so that he can also do acceptably in a duo lane?

tryndamere wasn't mean to be good in 1v1 and a splitpusher, trust me before his rework (trash rework we should say) he was a teamfight monster, he used to remove 100 ad to everybody, slow them for 5 seconds and he had 264% crit damage (i don't know how many with ie). He is now a splitpusher because riot nerfed his utility and base stats along with his heal (from 400 to 300) and his crit damage, so they nerfed him and he is only playable as a splitpusher

Jax,i agree you're totally right man, but melee carry like yasuo (can possibly work right now) and tryndamere (who also needs a rework) should be able to lane bot as a gold carry

DaenOct 22, 20151 votes

trust me before his rework (trash rework we should say) he was a teamfight monster, he used to remove 100 ad to everybody, slow them for 5 seconds and he had 264% crit damage (i don't know how many with ie).

Which rework are you referring to? Here's a link to his patch history, the vast majority of his changes buffed certain aspects and nerfed others. Mocking Shout still removes 80 AD (down from 100), slows for 4 seconds (down from 5), and a lot of other parts of his kit were buffed.

How was tryndamere getting that much critical strike damage, exactly? There aren't any crit damage increases in his kit.

He is know a splitpusher because riot nerfed his utility and base stats along with his heal (from 400 to 300) and his crit damage, so they nerfed him and he is only playable as a splitpusher

They nerfed his slow from being the single longest duration slow in the game to being tied for the longest duration slow in the game, and lowered the AD cut by 20%. They also buffed his base stats numerous times with one small nerf to them in early 2012, and his crit damage has remained completely unchanged.

He is best played as a splitpusher because he's an absolute monster at taking down turrets and can dive a lone defender extremely easily, which is why him being top alone generally forces 2+ enemy teammates to deal with him.

KONO RUBICK DAOct 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Which rework are you referring to? Here's a link to his patch history, the vast majority of his changes buffed certain aspects and nerfed others. Mocking Shout still removes 80 AD (down from 100), slows for 4 seconds (down from 5), and a lot of other parts of his kit were buffed.

How was tryndamere getting that much critical strike damage, exactly? There aren't any crit damage increases in his kit.

They nerfed his slow from being the single longest duration slow in the game to being tied for the longest duration slow in the game, and lowered the AD cut by 20%. They also buffed his base stats numerous times with one small nerf to them in early 2012, and his crit damage has remained completely unchanged.

He is best played as a splitpusher because he's an absolute monster at taking down turrets and can dive a lone defender extremely easily, which is why him being top alone generally forces 2+ enemy teammates to deal with him.

his ulti used to last 6 seconds his Q used to give him one stack on every attacks, each stacks increasing his AD by 8 and critical damage by 8%. it also used to heal 410, along with 64 AD and 64% critical damage.

with a rework, they reworked how the champ was he was also gaining 35% crit chance when he was at 1 hp making him two shoting you if he was under ulti. now he uses fury which is a big nerf.

besides, the 6 seconds ulti was really strong

DaenOct 22, 20151 votes

his Q used to give him one stack on every attacks, each stacks increasing his AD by 8 and critical damage by 8%. it also used to heal 410, along with 64 AD and 64% critical damage.

Do you have a source on the crit damage increase present as part of his Q?

now he uses fury which is a big nerf.

I'm confused, how is this a nerf exactly? His abilities don't cost any fury (other than his sustain, which is far more effectively balanced than the previous iteration), he just happens to get extra critical strike chance depending on his fury bar.

Overall, Riot overhauled him to be less bullshit with many of his mechanics while also giving him increased critical strike chance to help solidify his identity. I'm not entirely sure why you feel his rework was subpar, it moved him into a more balanceable and more consistent role rather than being completely binary.

KONO RUBICK DAOct 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Do you have a source on the crit damage increase present as part of his Q?

I'm confused, how is this a nerf exactly? His abilities don't cost any fury (other than his sustain, which is far more effectively balanced than the previous iteration), he just happens to get extra critical strike chance depending on his fury bar.

Overall, Riot overhauled him to be less bullshit with many of his mechanics while also giving him increased critical strike chance to help solidify his identity. I'm not entirely sure why you feel his rework was subpar, it moved him into a more balanceable and more consistent role rather than being completely binary.

my experiance, i play league since 2010. they didn't give him increased critical strike, he already had critical strike

more balanceable? not really, at this time he was played some time in pros (like rainman the old top laner of tsm) when he was nerfed, nobody understood why (at high elo) they nerfed him because he was stomping low elo so badly, he had something like 75% win rate in normals game, that's why he was nerfed in high elo everyone managed to outplay him and he wasn't a beast in early game as now.

Now you can stack up fury and kill someone at lvl 2, old tryndamere's critical strike was based on how much health he had.

DaenOct 22, 20151 votes

my experiance, i play league since 2010. they didn't give him increased critical strike, he already had critical strike

So...no source on this mechanic you keep saying used to be part of his kit?

not really, at this time he was played some time in pros (like rainman the old top laner of tsm) when he was nerfed, nobody understood why (at high elo) they nerfed him because he was stomping low elo so badly, he had something like 75% win rate in normals game, that's why he was nerfed in high elo everyone managed to outplay him and he wasn't a beast in early game as now.

Pre-rework, Tryndamere was almost never played in high ELO because he was far too gimmicky and reliant on his completely broken mechanics to succeed. Riot reworked him to simultaneously alleviate his profoundly negative impact on mid-low ELO players and make him more consistent for high level play, and a few months after the rework he was indeed being played some in high brackets.

KONO RUBICK DAOct 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So...no source on this mechanic you keep saying used to be part of his kit?

Pre-rework, Tryndamere was almost never played in high ELO because he was far too gimmicky and reliant on his completely broken mechanics to succeed. Riot reworked him to simultaneously alleviate his profoundly negative impact on mid-low ELO players and make him more consistent for high level play, and a few months after the rework he was indeed being played some in high brackets.

http://lol.fureur.org/dossier/guide-league-legends-guide-tryndamere-2-shot

this is a french guide to 2010 tryndamere, if you can translate the Q spell welp

tryndamere was played in high elo, infact look at this hotshotgg season one game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxLkNpYy1CM

tryndamere carried hotshotgg who was feeding with kog at 0.33 sec you can see the board

NautOct 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This is the opinion I expected to hear from most people on this subject, and the one that I personally resonate pretty strongly with.

To me personally, I don't necessarily have an issue with marksmen except for their relative monopoly over the duo lane carry position. It's possible that this would be meaningfully alleviated to me if marksmen didn't feel so "same-y" to play as/against (I know there are ad mains out there that will disagree wholly with this).

That said, the idea of bringing your tank, mage, or fighter as a duo lane farmer is definitely an exciting prospect, though I think we're a long way from that at the moment.

As an ADC main, I disagree wholly with this. That said, I think an interesting concept to expand upon is entirely non-burst, consistent damage mages in the bot lane. Think Azir in this, not Cassiopeia. Someone high range that isn't gated by cooldowns very much. It would also allow more AD mid laners in more team compositions. I personally have played Azir as an ADC in the bottom lane because my team had very little magic damage, and it worked out pretty well.

GinoSoldierOct 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That said, the idea of bringing your tank, mage, or fighter as a duo lane farmer is definitely an exciting prospect, though I think we're a long way from that at the moment.

Just make sure that some select ADCs can be performing healthily in other lanes, (Among candidates would be; Kindred, Kalista, Vayne jungle, Quinn, Vayne top, Ashe, Kalista, Kindred support, Varus, MF mid.) and that means the bot lane is freed for something less usual and probably more fun.

That said, AD champions still need a support item for gold. I've been using the Coin on Kindred and Ashe so far, and while it's definitely useful, i'd like to see something a bit more personalized for AD supports. Perhaps Murksphere with AD could be an option?

EeyoreOct 26, 20151 votes

I played Cassiopeia bot lane to fulfil the rework's dream of her having a "marksman" power curve and it was really fun up until the mana refund nerf - now she doesn't have enough mana to kill someone in lane, given the fact her costs also went up in one of the previous patches. I still try from time-to-time and it's still fun, but it's really hard now. I understand she was obnoxious top lane but I wish a sweet spot could be found.

I also play Vladimir not lane. It really is the best lane ever.

So far as I can identify, it's less about the power curve and more about having the resource management to survive duelling an auto-attacker - either you need the combo to do it once and win the lane, or the sustain to hack away and not be pushed out from one combo. Mana-vamp Cassiopeia, Vladimir and new Mordekaiser do this. Kennen could probably work as an AP bot laner, although most play him as an ADC.

EeyoreOct 26, 20151 votes

I also play Vladimir not lane. It really is the best lane ever.

DeynaTaggerungOct 22, 20151 votes

Well they all have something in common, but there's still different types of adcs. There's kitey/chase adcs (kalista, sivir), duelist adcs (draven, vayne) and wave clear/shoving adcs (trist, jinx). I'd say this is similar to how mid laners are generally assassins or mages. So while they could look to diversify the different roles Marksmen can fill I don't think making a "new" role that would fill their spot is necessarily the way to look at it.

MealReadytoEatOct 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Basically, it's unclear, to me at least, why exactly it's more ideal for marksmen to be less important. This may not be the perfect example, but football teams have quarterbacks on every team, and that seems to be perfectly satisfactory there.

I'm feeling a little lazy, so hear is copy-pasta of my thoughts on ADC from about a month ago that I think is quite relevant.

People complain about ADC's being weak right now (sans Vayne), but clearly they are still the dominant force in the league. They are the only champion class or itemization that each team has a minimum of one of. Bot lane itself is stagnant and boring, and I'd love to see change.

Kindred is one direction to take towards making more options bot lane, although I'd really like to see changes to make ADC's less of a necessity overall in the first place.

Even when ADC's are a class feel really unfun and boring (Right now, for the most part), so as long as they are a necessity for a functional team they are overpowered; No other class is irreplaceable or essential.

Right now, ADC's serve two irreplaceable purposes - to force enemies to build armor, as HP alone is not enough to tank ADC's but is usually enough against bruisers and AD assassins, and to take defended towers safely. Neither of these are particularly satisfying elements of play for an ADC, but so as long as no one else can do it, this ends up being their primary point of balance.

If these were no longer an essential parts of a functional team regardless of strategy, like if Ohm Wrecker became a real item for sieging towers, or with more effective physical DPS options for assassins and bruisers (I think the Juggernauts are awesome because they fill this niche) ADC's could have real differences in play style and itemization, rather than building and playing for more or less identical tower-taking and tank-busting roles.

As far as Ohm Wrecker goes, I think it needs to be oriented towards mid to late game 5 man tower dives. It shouldn't be "that item that junglers rush to dive towers early game" but an item for late game 5 man dives for towers defended by ranged wave clear. I'd love to get involved in a conversation of how to accomplish this.

KONO RUBICK DAOct 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'm feeling a little lazy, so hear is copy-pasta of my thoughts on ADC from about a month ago that I think is quite relevant.

People complain about ADC's being weak right now (sans Vayne), but clearly they are still the dominant force in the league. They are the only champion class or itemization that each team has a minimum of one of. Bot lane itself is stagnant and boring, and I'd love to see change.

Kindred is one direction to take towards making more options bot lane, although I'd really like to see changes to make ADC's less of a necessity overall in the first place.

Even when ADC's are a class feel really unfun and boring (Right now, for the most part), so as long as they are a necessity for a functional team they are overpowered; No other class is irreplaceable or essential.

Right now, ADC's serve two irreplaceable purposes - to force enemies to build armor, as HP alone is not enough to tank ADC's but is usually enough against bruisers and AD assassins, and to take defended towers safely. Neither of these are particularly satisfying elements of play for an ADC, but so as long as no one else can do it, this ends up being their primary point of balance.

If these were no longer an essential parts of a functional team regardless of strategy, like if Ohm Wrecker became a real item for sieging towers, or with more effective physical DPS options for assassins and bruisers (I think the Juggernauts are awesome because they fill this niche) ADC's could have real differences in play style and itemization, rather than building and playing for more or less identical tower-taking and tank-busting roles.

As far as Ohm Wrecker goes, I think it needs to be oriented towards mid to late game 5 man tower dives. It shouldn't be "that item that junglers rush to dive towers early game" but an item for late game 5 man dives for towers defended by ranged wave clear. I'd love to get involved in a conversation of how to accomplish this.

wow, great post

TaigongwangOct 22, 20153 votes

Its more of the fact that Ranged ADC's are REQUIRED after a certain skill level in the game. They bring ranged siege damage while having extremely high single target damage themselves. This is mainly in part of the fact that VERY few classes generally have access to the same siege potential, either because of safety reasons or lack of options for it. Banner, Ohmwrecker, and Portal all were to help with this, but end up being lack luster because of them not being efficient on many champions. Even the classes that have access to similar siege potential, dont offer the single target damage RADC's do. Marksmen as they are called just give so much in one package for high level play in the current game.

It becomes stale and boring very quickly, which is why I think people are asking for them to become less necessary. I used to play bot lane constantly, but I stopped because it got VERY boring.

Talith PAOct 22, 20151 votes

If you look at the Meddler thread, the only solution they have for that is RNG based crits. Because if you don't have that random factor decide the game for you every once in a while then why even play? You would already know the outcome since its so predictable.

TaigongwangOct 22, 20151 votes

What that tells me is that people are too used to RNG crits. Dota carries dont NEED crit to carry. HoTS carries dont either. Other mobas have either gotten rid of crit, or made it OPTIONAL. In league, it isnt optional as a carry. If you dont have crit, you have at most half the dps of the carry who does. And yes, Crit exists in DoTA. But do you see every carry in the game rushing that big crit item in DoTA? Nope. You see them get it late game. There are other options for DPS than crit, something league lacks in dump truck loads for carries.

AMYS GRAVEOct 22, 20154 votes

For instance, they could want this so that they can lane less traditional champions in a duo lane. They could want us to make a large number of other characters really powerful turret killers. They could want a bunch sustained physical damage casters (like physical damage Karthus or something). Or it could be any of a number of other reasons.

All of the above. Have you considered an "increased damage to structures" passive on some champion(s)?

I'm just not sure I understand what the intended outcome is, and why that outcome is more desirable.

imagine a meta where an assassin had to be on every team. Then the assassins would have to be nerfed or their counters would have to be buffed to increase diversity. This is what we saw in the "tank meta". One class was pushing others out (assassins at the time) so when their counters got buffed (enter the tank meta) we saw more diversity across the board. Tanks were too strong for a patch or two but then we saw far more interesting picks everywhere. Keeping the game fresh is why it is potentially more desirable.

Talith PAOct 22, 20151 votes

There was a tower destroying passive on a melee, Alistar. Tower Hunter Alister used to be a thing and they killed it.

Sire HippingtonOct 22, 20155 votes

well, in theorie, alis passive still deals damage to towers, so does Rammus ult and Ziggs passive, but their damage vs buildings is rather undertuned compared to the conditions(besides ziggs maybe).

Talith PAOct 22, 20152 votes

It's not the 60% bonus damage to towers on a champion with a self heal and massive % damage reduction though. It was like every time his ult and youmuu's was ready he would take a tower np

disregardableOct 22, 20154 votes

I know you've gotten a lot of responses already, but I agree with the statement that bottom lane is really boring. I think bottom lane would be a lot more interesting if champions that could actually be aggressive and survive 4 man ganks played there- like Lissandra. As a marksmen main I obviously don't want ADs to be less important, but having the class that just sits under turret bottom lane is depressing. Imagine making even more carries like Morde that rely on their allies. The balance team's current response to high vitality, aggressive champions is to nerf them. But why not buff marksmen? Not so they can compete with a Maokai+Mordekaiser bot lane, but so they can take their farm game to top lane: defensive options that are basically limited to avoiding ganks and avoiding 1 shots. ADs consistently going top will effectively force tanky playmaking champions down to bottom, which (if you made more ally reliant carries morde) would be even more fun! It creates an interesting space for melee carries in the meta, too- they'd be the "we need to end before 30 minutes" marksmen.

The whole result of this theory crafting is earlier, more fun teamfights and an even stronger reinforcement of top lane as an island - where farm reliant carries can just farm- and ADs as lategame turret takers.

Jag basically said it's impossible, though. But if I were to change league of legends, I'd like to at least try it out.

StephenizgodOct 22, 20155 votes

Well it would be nice if Marksmen also didnt excel at murdering champions AND pushing turrets. I think this is more abouts what the issue is, there are great turret killers but not all of them can perform so reliably in a teamfight like a Marksmen, they don't bring the DPS and they dont usually have the range.

The Bearded BardOct 22, 20153 votes

I think you should make it harder for AD champions to take towers, especially in the early game. As it is now, if you get killed bot lane by a jinx or trist, your tower's gone. If you get ganked top lane and die to an ad top laner and jungle, your tower is gone. Late game any AD champ can take a tower before anything meaningful can happen while your team lacks their main damage dealer.

Personally I don't find the marksman role to be mandatory. I've done just fine with an APC paired with a support when my team's gone a bit crazy with the ad top, mid, and jungle. The issue is that everyone else does and that's where you lose the variety. There's definitely more duo lane combinations than just support + adc, people just don't want to give them a chance outside of goofing off in normals.

pripustasOct 22, 20155 votes

The problem is, that Marksmen are in 100% of the games (except when Mord is not banned) That means we need AP mid laners. You can't go AD mid if you don't have AP top, or you'll get flamed by your team, because we are now full AD comp, and ff@20 spam. Why can you pick Marksmen in every single game and it's ok, but you can't pick AD mids? That's the problem, some champions are viable in 100% of the games, and others are left for sometimes. So either give us more gold and easier clears in jungle, so we can pick our favorite assassins there, or make AP bot laners viable.

TLDR Some champions can be viably picked in every single game, while others cannot, due to the team comp/team harass. That is discrimination.

ShénzhìOct 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

We don't currently have definitive plans to make marksmen less necessary. I know players seem to want this, but it's actually not clear to me exactly how they want it.

just not sure I understand what the intended outcome is, and why that outcome is more desirable.

I think an ultimate goal expands from 'Marksman Update'. The outcome I'd want asks for radical change. Radical change needs to be prepared and accepted in avid LoL players (propaganda still works today).

Starting with Marksmen I suppose may be a first-step though the radical suggestion I preach requires all 'balance changes' to weave a focus to the ultimate redevelopment. I have no idea what's been focused upon over 6 years but it's about time something was made clear: A CLEAR LONG-TERM VISION FOR A CONSISTENT & STABLE PRODUCT.

If Kit were made more important than Items (Kit > Items):

Simplified Items: Abilities come strictly from Kit and not from Items (Items become 'salt & pepper' instead of a 'side order'). Items will not allow for significant unique abilities like Actives (e.g. Zhonya's). In redevelopment, Item's role would simply become steroids reflecting team's progression without adverse effects against enemy. Adversity comes from player's and team's ability to perform extraordinarily. Dependency on Item's decreased; Reliance on player activity is increased. (I understand this may not make sense. It's a radical suggestion)
Equalizer Items: Champion compositions made less incompatible with or against each other as Items are repurposed for seemingly poor champion compositions (Kit) made bearable in almost any match (Items). Versatility. Intended things: confidence in team comp. and champ-select, and clarifying item decisions: For Me, For Team, ~~For Both~~.
Defined Roles: With Kits becoming the priority their roles are refined. The excessive learning of the this game is reduced from which players will excel quicker and further. These Kits offer clear options at champ-select: pre-game becomes easier, quicker and with confidence!

If Items were made more important than Kit (Items > Kit):

Kit Value: Redundancy may happen when Items continue to show more importance than Kit. This sounds like old ADC, doesn't it? Confidence in champion-select becomes difficult when Items builds manipulate too much. The excess here causes several problems, I think. Kits may offer advantages allowing Items to work better but why should we think so hard about these when most of the gameplay is about combat, tactics and strategy? More thinking; less playing: Kit is not enough. Imagine trying to walk in quicksand. This is LoL.
Last Hit: Game is to destroy the Nexus by having control over lanes. Not last hit monotony. Item dependency falls onto Gold Income and Last Hit dependency. Last Hit is inconsistent in all parts of the game and causes tension against strong champ-counters. Even the guessing part when to right-click is so fucking frustrating. Current system may remain for what it may do ..but updated to keep both teams equally competitive through-out entire match (Item purchases happen at relatively same time between teams).
Chaos Theory: Hemorrhage. Where confidence in a decision and action should deliver it is constantly tested or inhibited instead. Why? Too much stuff going on, maybe?

Like with Black Market Brawlers, as a separate game-type we could have Items with outstanding effects. This way, the real game is kept fair and tolerant while the other game-type is there for people to just 'over-indulge' peaking those fun levels. Though this segregates casual and genuine players they are both appeased. In my mind, it would also form cohesion between 'pro' and 'real' players. This additional idea puts this post's message into perspective.

Two game-types: Normal & Gravy.

[Normal gametype]: After many changes including Items, 'normal' game is defined and sanitized. (Fair Game; Kits)
[Gravy gametype]: On top of a redeveloped game, insanity is kept with additional excessive old and new crazy items. (Fun Game; Items)

Sire HippingtonOct 22, 20155 votes

For me, the intended outcome would be that you can play a teamcomp without marksman(regardless of position) without haveing to win befor the 40min mark. Marksmen just run supreme in the lategame, while som other classes totally crumble lategame. I'm totally fine with certain champs beeing powerfull late, and some beeing powerfull early-mid, but haveing that destinct powercurve for an entire class is a bit annoying. i'd like to play and real ad-caster and feel good lategame, or a bruiser, or maybe pick an adc and feel great early-mid(though thats already possible, since adc don't really have a weak time, which is part of my problem with them)

I often play wothout adc in premade normals, and it usually goes pretty well and are fun games, but the basis is always snowballing early and finish~30-35min or earlyer. If the game ever goes long enough for the opposing carry to get 5+items, or if your lead ever diminishes to a point where you no longer clearly win open fights around drake/baron, you simply loose. An 5item adc is a superior force in any fight unless you manage to get a great flank and instantly take him out, and siegeing down towers is really hard, even with champs like ziggs, if you don't have an adc. If you loose a fight vs jinx after the 40min mark, you can be assured that most off your base is gone afterwards, if you loose it to a no-adc, maybe one tower will fall...

Besides that, i hate the fact that the entier absurd scaleing off adc is on their AAs via crit. Not only is their major damage point n click and rng-based, it also means that leategame, you have not akot difference between how they play, other than positioning with mobillity/range differences. A graves come lategame will do more damage with a singl crit than he does with his ult, and i wish that was overexaggerated, but it isn't. The destinct kits, especially for more caster based carrys, falls totally short come to lategame, as it's all about the rightclick-rng.

Earl EulrichOct 22, 20155 votes

removing crit would be a good start i´d reckon...

ShénzhìOct 22, 20153 votes

#+1 [~~Removing~~ Replacing Critical] Unfortunately, not likely to happen.

Earl EulrichOct 22, 20153 votes

well yea, replacing - but not necessarily with the same impact. Right now Marksmen are a lot too focused on their auto-attacks, dimishing the differences between them to a point where it just doesn´t matter if they´d be burst/utility focused or just hyper-lategame...all that matters is that they get their IE and start criting.

KONO RUBICK DAOct 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YprrjAGg,comment-id=0005000e00000000,timestamp=2015-10-22T15:13:39.794+0000)

well yea, replacing - but not necessarily with the same impact. Right now Marksmen are a lot too focused on their auto-attacks, dimishing the differences between them to a point where it just doesn´t matter if they´d be burst/utility focused or just hyper-lategame...all that matters is that they get their IE and start criting.

i wonder how dota 2 makes carry different and viable without making crit mandatory. Literally only 2 or 3 champs buy IE in dota 2, after 2 years i don't know how.

Sightless66Oct 22, 20152 votes

Carries can get a ton of base damage from their kit, and the form of that base damage may work best with non-crit damage stroids. You will see that many carries who get straight autoattack damage from their kit still buy daedalus very regularly. Carries also have to buy tank items in dota. A carry can easily put out half their team's damage while also being impossible to kill. That would not be allowed in league unless it was someone extremely immobile like darius.

Pika310Oct 22, 20151 votes

I'll be honest. This is the first Riot post I've up-voted in a very long time.

Old Man TeetoOct 22, 20152 votes

Jungler's are 100% needed in the game.

Supports are 100% needed in the game.

"But I can bring a tank or a mage as support!"

They put a SINGLE champion in place of ADC -- Mordekaiser, and the player base flips their shit.

We just got our FIRST working ADC Jungler as well.

Very few champions that aren't ADC work RELIABLY in a duo lane, since mages/tanks/bruisers really need levels, and others can't lane against range too well particularly when a second champion is there.

Additionally, different ADC's bring different strategies.

Varus was picked and played in the bottom lane and used as a poke with manamune.

Ashe was being used as her team's primary engage.

Fnatic used Kennen ADC as a utility/early game carry.