ADC's without dashes should deal more damage than most Mobile adcs. [Long read]

SleepyLionCub··60 votes·9,004 views

This means that

Jinx
Sivir Ashe Varus Kog Miss Fortune Draven and Twitch

Should deal more damage than

Cait Corki Ezreal Graves Kalista Lucian Quinn Trist and Vayne.

For some of these champions this is actually accurate. Draven, Kog, Twitch, and Jinx deal a lot of damage to make up for their lack of responsive mobility. However all of these champions also have very effective ways of CC. Kog's aoe slow, Twitch aoe slow, Draven aoe slow and knockback, and jinx single target slow/ multi target snare. So for those champions I think they are fine, since they do good damage and are up to par with other adcs.

However that leaves: Sivir Ashe Miss fortune and Varus.

Ok, we all know these champions CAN carry if the circumstances are right. But its not about if a champion CAN carry, its about their overall performance when they are and when they aren't carrying.

Sivir, has tons of movementspeed buffs, however no dashes. Flash can solve this for her however, and her damage is respectively high. However her "gimmick" seems to be her shield. her shield that has an EXTREMELY long cooldown. At rank 1 it has a 22 second cooldown. 22 seconds is very high for a regular ability. However looking at her ult... her ult is simply a dash that affects teammates near her. Yet it has a 120/100/80 cooldown. Again, REALLY high for early game. That being said, her Q and W are very good for waveclear, making her normally a fair champion with some weaknesses. Except that she also has 500 autoattack range. This makes sivirs laning phase one of the worst of all the adcs. on top of her extremely high earlygame cooldowns, she also has to deal with the lowest range of all adcs.

Ashe, is fabled for having a horrible passive, everyone knows and somewhat accepts it. Since everyone already knows its horrible I wont talk about it further. her Q lets her slow enemies down. Very useful when proced with her W as well. However she has the absolute lowest AD scaling for any ADC. She pretty much deals the lowest damage too. I know she CAN deal good damage when fed. But every adc can deal good damage when fed. Her W has GREAT AD scaling, but horrible base damage. And since ashe herself has horrible AD scaling, her W wont ever really deal a good amount of damage. Speaking of her W it also have very extreme cooldowns for early game. it starts with 16, but ends up at being 4 seconds? Thats kinda crazy. Evening that out will make her better, while also giving her more mana, so she can actually use those W's. Her ult seems like her bread and butter move, which is great. However AGAIN it deals no damage. it seems like nothing ashe ever does actually deals damage. It makes her feel really weird as an adc.

Miss Fortune, She was recently buffed to deal extremely high damage. Compared to the other dashless adc's she probably does the most. However. That being said, her late game is not very good. No dashes means she cant kite, and very little cc doesnt let her actively DPS in teamfights that would otherwise be safe for other adcs. However, this being said. The only thing I would change about her would make her passive activate in 3 seconds. Not 5.

Finally Varus. He is the least mobile/cc champion on this list. however he does have good aoe and burst damage. However he is another one of the adc's that have really weird AP scaling in their kit that they never build for. Make his W scale with AD, and increase his base movespeed by 5 and he will be on par with newer adcs.

TLDR; Ashe, Sivir, Miss Fortune, and Varus are slightly underpowered atm and could use some help because their pick/win rates are falling way behind with all these new mobile champions shining over them.

113 Comments

Talamare12 votes

Imagine how broken it would be if there was a champion who basically could dash without cooldown, like literally after every attack

SleepyLionCub7 votes

Imagine how broken it would be if there was a champion who basically could dash without cooldown, like literally after every attack

Kinda my point. Lol. New ADCs have dashes built in for no good reason. And it's making the older immobile champs less viable. With the exception of Jinx. However, she is a damage powerhouse. Her ult nukes teams in teamfights, and she has AOE damage on her aa. She is a perfect model for a immobile adc.

Narasimha4 votes

Now imagine if that champion did less damage than 90% of everyone else in her role. That would be a great way to balance such a champion.

OverpoweredSoap9 votes

Ashe's Ult does some decent/good burst damage early game imo.

Like a Mini Jinx ult ult, I guess.

Ashe's problem is that she pretty much started the whole "kits need dashes" thing, because she could easily keep people away from her while dealing a good amount of damage. That being said though, I think a new passive, depending on what it would be, could help her out A LOT.

Imo, Sivir just needs a slight range increase, because who the hell wants to play Sivir with that range when Lucian is more mobile than she is yet provides arguably the same amount of waveclear and being safer. A range increase could give her a buff while keeping intact her different kit points, such as her shield and her ult.

Miss Fortune just kind of needs her ult to be kinda better late game, otherwise she sort of serves her purpose as bully adc even without it.

Varus is in the same boat as Ashe, it's scary to give them buffs because they bring a good amount of AoE utility while bringing damage to the table.

Yet riot for some reason has no problem giving mobile ADCs power even if they can fly all over the place or easily escape.

AbodyHUN6662 votes

I agree with you on MF. I win lane with her every time, but I can't really ult in teamfights for more than a sec and her lategame duelling is quite weak.

BallisticMouse4 votes

"Like a Mini Jinx ult ult, I guess."

Literally describes why you should pick Jinx over Ashe, R-wise atleast.

Skyhawke6 votes

Um. Ashe's ult is much better than Jinx's ult. Ashe's ult is so strong that it warps the rest of her kit.

Skyhawke2 votes

Personally, I feel like all the champions he mentioned are in a pretty decent spot, really. They might only need a nudge here or there. You covered this pretty well with your post.

It wasn't too long ago that **Ashe **was being used in competitive play. Her utility is top-notch and giving her more damage would probably just break her.

You mention a **Sivir **range increase, but I really don't think that's all that necessary. Sivir still sees the occasional professional play because her wave clear is amazing (without using an ult like the Culling) and her ult can be great in the right team comp. I like that she is more of a niche champion that is used to fit certain comps.

**Miss Fortune **could probably use a slight buff somewhere, but she has pretty good damage and is a good lane bully.

I agree with you on Varus. Buffing him could be a bad idea, because his utility and burst (followed by sustained damage 'cuz he's an adc) is really strong.

bad manner kid9 votes

Miss Fortune/Draven/Twitch have more mobility than Quinn. If you chase her into a thin wall at the right angle you deserve to get fliptricked.

Thunder Dreamss5 votes

That is exactly what I was thinking. Quinn's real mobility is on her ult but if that makes her a "mobile adc" then Sivir should be as well and doubly so since Sivir can mobile her whole team.

AbodyHUN6664 votes

Draven too, if he has the mana he can just run around at the speed of Jinx 3 shotting everyone.

I Main Swain1 votes

draven's movement speed boost is very brief and he is one of the most vulnerable champs in the game, and the hardest adc to play.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Hardest I agree but I think he is the Zed of adcs. I just can't deal with him.

Kobila20001 votes

Uh, aoe knockback + slow and speed boost? Most adc get a slow or, if they're lucky, a delayed root.

ccseancc1437 votes

Twitches AOE slow is ass. Pretty much only useful in terms of getting stacks on people early game. That why alot of Twitch players save BoTRK for a disengage. Also Ashe and Varus have heavy CC ultimates which can change team fights.

SmokingPuffin6 votes

Sivir is dangerous to buff. When bruisers are strong, she's a force multiplier that makes them impossible to peel and it's super scary. Right now bruisers are weak, so she is weak.

Ashe is honestly pretty good right now. I'm not against giving her a more useful passive, but large buffs aren't possible.

Varus really needs attention. His all-skillshot gameplay has gotten tons harder with League of Mobility, but he doesn't get the rewards an immobile ADC should get for having relatively high risk damage output.

MissFortune seems destined to be a pubstomper. Really good laning phase, really weak teamfighting. Generally feels trumped by Lucian, as their kits do similar things but he's mobile and she isn't.

Arkna5 votes

The immobile ADCs who don't deal massive amounts of damage have insane utility instead. Sivir has her ult and amazing wave clear, and Ashe has a permaslow and a stun. Varus may not reach Kog tiers of damage, but his W is a really strong steriod, AND he has hard CC. MF has her passive and an extremely strong mid game as well.

FyshinaTux4 votes

Plot Twist, I think all champions should be reworked to have a dash of some sort... Riot has already shown that they don't care about Mobility Creep so... why not?

EDIT: Suppose I need a /s at the end of this... didn't realise people wouldn't get the sarcasm...

SleepyLionCub17 votes

Plot Twist, I think all champions should be reworked to have a dash of some sort... Riot has already shown that they don't care about Mobility Creep so... why not?

I dont think EVERY champion needs a dash. However I do think that the ones without dashes should be viable by being able to cc or deal more damage than mobile champions.

Pikmints10 votes

50 hue's of uno Mordekaiser

MrSlowDie2 votes

Plot Twist, I think all champions should be reworked to have a dash of some sort... Riot has already shown that they don't care about Mobility Creep so... why not?

NO !! one of the reason I play cait and twitch because there's a good feeling about being immobile ADC. Ok cait has a dash, but it's the only button to save life, and has high CD. Jinx has way better escape mech than cait

Orbv3 votes

Um....Cait is THE SECOND safest ADC after Tristana (late game only). She has the longest range until 15min in. Her net is not only a dash that can go through walls, but it has a heavy slow on it to punish chasing. Her Q has great wave clear so she can't be pushed against her will. She has the ability to place 3 traps that snare, and they can't be destroyed and have a long duration. Caitlin is partially the reason (along with Ashe) that ADC's need dashes, because they couldn't compete otherwise.

MrSlowDie2 votes

Um....Cait is THE SECOND safest ADC after Tristana (late game only). She has the longest range until 15min in. Her net is not only a dash that can go through walls, but it has a heavy slow on it to punish chasing. Her Q has great wave clear so she can't be pushed against her will. She has the ability to place 3 traps that snare, and they can't be destroyed and have a long duration. Caitlin is partially the reason (along with Ashe) that ADC's need dashes, because they couldn't compete otherwise.

yes, I said about ADC being immobile, not being safe

Orbv3 votes

Yes and mobility mixed with generally safe laning is slightly broken. Cait is one of the worst offenders. Her dash can't be interrupted mid-motion like Corki/Tristana

MrSlowDie3 votes

Yes and mobility mixed with generally safe laning is slightly broken. Cait is one of the worst offenders. Her dash can't be interrupted mid-motion like Corki/Tristana

do I even care if she's broken or not? you came out of nowhere and "oh.. he loves playing cait, I'll tell him how op cait is",

manbearswine1 votes

Yes and mobility mixed with generally safe laning is slightly broken. Cait is one of the worst offenders. Her dash can't be interrupted mid-motion like Corki/Tristana

do I even care if she's broken or not? you came out of nowhere and "oh.. he loves playing cait, I'll tell him how op cait is",

Well,Cait is pretty shit right now imo.

PatMcGroyn2 votes

Well,Cait is pretty shit right now imo.

Cait is definitely not shit. She has good AD scaling, ridiculous AA range, mobility, and cc. She might not have the same DPS of other hypercarries, but to say that Cait is shit is ridiculous.

Orbv2 votes

You literally came to say that you like immobile ad carries and proceeded to list one of the mobile ones. I wouldn't say "out of nowhere" when your comment was completely contradictory.

MrSlowDie1 votes

You literally came to say that you like immobile ad carries and proceeded to list one of the mobile ones. I wouldn't say "out of nowhere" when your comment was completely contradictory.

yes and it's ONLY her DASH, her E !! and I said it BEFORE, are you trying to say SAFE, LONG RANGE, POKE, SNARE, SLOW counted as MOBILE ?? varus is mobile then,

A: l like immobile, bla2 cait, ok, she has a dash, but long cd B: cait has safe laning, longe range, slow, snare, A: yes, but she still immobile B: she's broken A: do I even care? B: you said you like immobile adc, but you listed mobile one

Orbv3 votes

How many mobile abilities do you see ranged carries having?

Tristana has 1 Jump Corki has 1 Jump Ezreal has 1 Jump Sivir has 1 Haste Graves has 1 Dash Lucian has 1 Dash

Your example of Varus is actually still incorrect lol. He has bad range, his Q requires charging and hinders movement. That actually makes him pretty UNSAFE.

In your first post you said that JINX Jinx Jinx Jinx has a BETTER escape mechanism than Caitlyn !? LMFAO. Do you understand what you've been saying? Jinx is considered an IMMOBILE AD carry.

NO !! one of the reason I play cait and twitch because there's a good feeling about being immobile ADC. Ok cait has a dash, but it's the only button to save life, and has high CD. Jinx has way better escape mech than cait

You are wrong in that it's the ONLY button to safe her life, no it's not. She has 3 placeable snares. She gets three tries to snare and then she can back away WITH a slow at the same time.

Caitlin has NEVER been considered an IMMOBILE ad carry. You are completely wrong.

http://toychestsnarker.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/tumblr_m7yf6tmogf1qcq7id.gif

MrSlowDie1 votes

How many mobile abilities do you see ranged carries having?

Tristana has 1 Jump Corki has 1 Jump Ezreal has 1 Jump Sivir has 1 Haste Graves has 1 Dash Lucian has 1 Dash

Your example of Varus is actually still incorrect lol. He has bad range, his Q requires charging and hinders movement. That actually makes him pretty UNSAFE.

In your first post you said that JINX Jinx Jinx Jinx has a BETTER escape mechanism than Caitlyn !? LMFAO. Do you understand what you've been saying? Jinx is considered an IMMOBILE AD carry.

NO !! one of the reason I play cait and twitch because there's a good feeling about being immobile ADC. Ok cait has a dash, but it's the only button to save life, and has high CD. Jinx has way better escape mech than cait

You are wrong in that it's the ONLY button to safe her life, no it's not. She has 3 placeable snares. She gets three tries to snare and then she can back away WITH a slow at the same time.

Caitlin has NEVER been considered an IMMOBILE ad carry. You are completely wrong.

http://toychestsnarker.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/tumblr_m7yf6tmogf1qcq7id.gif

oh yeah tristana !! one dash, let's forget about CD reset !! or AD KASSADIN with no mana cost !! and I forget ezreal has a JUMP !! or graves, longer CD than cait, and he can't reduce his CD or an +AS in one skill !!

oh yeah, varus is unsafe.. it's mean he's immobile !! let's say cait mobile because she's SAFE, LONG RANGE, POKE, SNARE, SLOW!! And varus not because he's PRETTY unfase with a poke that doesn't need to charge in 1 second.

and CAIT has a 3 placeable snares !! jinx doesn't have 3 snare in a LINE and in a single CAST and in lower CAST TIME. or a SLOW !! or a insane ms boost !! she has no dash, she's immobile, it's mean she has more shit in escape mech !!

you are right !! YOU ARE GOD !! JESUS !! what a perfect argument. I am contradicting my self. Thank you for your words GOD

kyrakuu2 votes

You need to calm down. Hes right you know, Cait is a mobile carry, and a VERY safe pick for all those reasons.

It's because any good player (not even ADC) manages with the high cool down times by using them at the opportune moment rather than spamming it, and should be able to actually dodge skill shot cc such as thresh hook and blitz grab without having to use their dash

Being able to do this allows Cait to use her dash as an escape very easily, as it should always be up whenever shes in danger, almost NEVER as an engage as she already has high range to cover for not using dash. Unless of course its a sure kill, which if it is, she can usually just ult the person anyways.

High cool down times or not, any good cait player would have their dash ready during a team fight should they ever really need it to escape, or if their team is winning the fight she can dash forward for a sure kill.

Because Cait has a very high auto attack range, good DPS and a very good hard poking long range wide band of damage Q, and a good passive in comparison to other ADC's that shows presence in game as well as in stats, is why shes a VERY safe pick as it is hard to play against her, as she suppresses most other ADC's with her abilities in the early game laning phase.

You're not contradicting yourself, you just don't seem to know enough. I've just explained in full detail why Cait is a safe mobile pick. If you want to make a good counter argument, explain in detail why shes not.

If you cannot explain why, just accept the fact that shes pretty strong as a champion that in most cases is easy to get fed with. Instead of thinking that Cait's bad and that you won all your games with her because you're good.

If you want to feel good about demolishing with an ADC champion that's bad, play Urgot. Destroy and carry with him and you'll definitely get props from your team.

Lost In Time4 votes

People say the same thing about mobile and non-mobile mages.

The thing is - people will complaining when they do TOO much damage, even with a lack of an escape - i.e. Brand, Zyra (RIP), old Xerath, Malzahar, etc.

Buff these guys and the boards will be filled with tears - just like if you did that with ADCs - people already think Ezreal is extremely weak and Ashe needs to be looked at (lowest base AD for an ADC with zero steroids)

Sammystorm3 votes

To be absolutely fair release zyra was absurd. But the others I agree on.

MattAkhavan4 votes

I think the idea that those champions need some buffs are valid, but the reason being that they don't have dashes is not correct.

The Soulforged3 votes

Ashe w has great ad scaling? It has 1 ad scaling, which is the same as an auto attack except it cannot crit.

Champion Skin3 votes

Ashe w has great ad scaling? It has 1 ad scaling, which is the same as an auto attack except it cannot crit.

It also has longer range and can hit more then 1 target

Sammystorm7 votes

Ashe has the best level 1 out of all ad carries.

Champion Skin2 votes

Ashe has the best level 1 out of all ad carries.

Draven doesn't exactly have a bad level 1 either (it was totally insane before when he had that bleed on axes or crits)

Dromeas3 votes

I think the key thing to note is that the 4 ADC's you mentioned have things to make up for their lack of mobility. They have a ton of utility, more than any other ADC. You cannot expect every ADC to be equal, that would make the game stale.

Ashe: Has single target slows (AA+Q), Multitarget slows (W), Vision (E), and a Stun (R) On top of doing a decent amount of dmg. MF: Best team Fighter ADC, Q deals dmg twice, E is a area slow + dmg, R is amazing for wombos Varus: Long range Q for poke with high dmg, W allows him to deal %helath magic dmg , E is area slow, R is single/multi target stun Sivir: Q is long range and high dmg poke, W allows for great waverclear and good team fight dmg, E is amazing against CC, R is best offensive AND defensive tool.

Instead of increasing the dmgs on these ADC i would rather have their utility increased.

TL;DR they are not meant to be play like high dmg adcs, they are UTILITY, POCKET PICKS, TEAM COMP FOCUS ADC's

Hayaishi2 votes

I think the key thing to note is that the 4 ADC's you mentioned have things to make up for their lack of mobility. They have a ton of utility, more than any other ADC. You cannot expect every ADC to be equal, that would make the game stale.

Ashe: Has single target slows (AA+Q), Multitarget slows (W), Vision (E), and a Stun (R) On top of doing a decent amount of dmg. MF: Best team Fighter ADC, Q deals dmg twice, E is a area slow + dmg, R is amazing for wombos Varus: Long range Q for poke with high dmg, W allows him to deal %helath magic dmg , E is area slow, R is single/multi target stun Sivir: Q is long range and high dmg poke, W allows for great waverclear and good team fight dmg, E is amazing against CC, R is best offensive AND defensive tool.

Instead of increasing the dmgs on these ADC i would rather have their utility increased.

****TL;DR they are not meant to be play like high dmg adcs, they are UTILITY, POCKET PICKS, TEAM COMP FOCUS ADC's

Im just going to answer to the last part.

"They are not meant to play like high damage adcs" this is bullshit, as long as we keep having this logic there's no reason to play any immobile adc that isnt Jinx and it will continue to be like this.

Dromeas3 votes

I disagree, the idea that YOU HAVE TO PLAY a high damage adc with high mobility is what causes them to not be played. In solo queue, people don't trust others to play well therefore you have to play a high damage, mobile carry, so that you can carry your game. <-- This idea is what causes picks like Varus, Ashe, MF and Sivir to be picked less frequently. If you didn't change their kits, you would have to sacrifice their utility, for higher damage, which makes for boring, stale ADC's.

I'm not saying that these champs are PERFECTLY balanced in terms of the utility-damage ratio, some of them could use some love to bring them to S5 properly (Ashe needs new passive, Varus needs a better steroid, they probably all could have some better scaling or base damage). My point is they should be in the bottom tier when it comes to damage, equalizing their damage to Draven, Graves, Jinx etc... would make them instant picks. Contrast them with champions that have little utility, (Vayne,Twitch, Tristiana) they have some of the best late game mechanics (Silver Bolts, Ratatat, Draw a Bead) to compensate.

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

Um, don't know if you play Quinn or not, but she is NOT a mobile ADC. Her only real mobility is her 80 sec cooldown at max rank ult, and if you are counting ults, then stick Sivir in there too. Also, Miss Fortune has a lot more mobility than Quinn. Her passive grants massive MS, and she has a slow as a basic part of her kit. It's nearly impossible to catch a MF as Quinn without using Tag Team

ProfDrDeath7 votes

Quinn is quite mobile, just not necessarily in every direction as some of the other AD carries.

310 base MS, Flat MS boost, dash, and the ult.

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

the dash....isn't really a dash unless you are Valor. As Quinn, it throws you in and then back out again. I agree that you can use it to hop over some walls if you are in the right position, but it's not really possible considering all the conditions that have to be met in order for it to work

Black Star 12995 votes

Really useful for that

Xin, Akali, Amumu, Jarvan, Lee sin, Riven, Zed, Khazix, Volibear, Kat, Talon, Rengar, Sejuani, Shyvana, Shen, Vi, Shaco, and all other melee champs that jump onto you though, it's one of the best escapes for situations like those.

Her E is a really weird ability, it helps her escape, engage, disengage, proc passive for damage, jump walls, Channel interrupts (Watch the katarina ult fails) all in one ability. Only thing is, its not used for escaping ranged, and dodging skillshots (Maybe if you are at the right angle) Still pretty darn useful for one ability.

Its just buggy and a little hard to use, but it is one of the most darn useful dashes in game.

Kuroi861 votes

I can't speak for MF, though I've heard she is surprisingly strong.

Sivir is just awkward from what I've seen.

Ashe needs a better passive that acts and possibly a stronger steroid in her kit to help her scale a bit better.

Varus suffers from an awkward kit that really doesn't have a good build path for. If there was a good build path, he'd be the most monstrous ADC in the game, but as it is the strongest ADC build is really not good on him and he has to rely on his range and poking with his Q for the most effectiveness.

The Soulforged3 votes

I can't speak for MF, though I've heard she is surprisingly strong.

Sivir is just awkward from what I've seen.

Ashe needs a better passive that acts and possibly a stronger steroid in her kit to help her scale a bit better.

Varus suffers from an awkward kit that really doesn't have a good build path for. If there was a good build path, he'd be the most monstrous ADC in the game, but as it is the strongest ADC build is really not good on him and he has to rely on his range and poking with his Q for the most effectiveness.

Varus's problem is not being able to have a good build path. The current build path is actually fine for him, and does decent dmg.

KzooCrasher1 votes

I think this idea is kind of funny.... I mean Varus has a slow and aoe snare which is his substitute for an escape also didn't he get played at worlds? Sivir's spell shield isn't an escape but it negates cc and then she can run at the speed of light with her ult (also sivir gets played at the professional level so its hard to call her weak since they tend to play strong champions since their lively hood depends on winning. MF I agree with. And ashe can get a dash when she doesn't infinitely kite.....

Stars Shaper4 votes

Varus has a really unreilable steroid and his root is a linear skillshot that drains a hella lot of mana as well as his E. Plus he is forced to AA you a lot before shooting a skill compared to other Marks.

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