Shen. What do you have planned for him? The Worlds nerfs hit his jungling and laning quite a bit, and his tank stats are among the worst in the game.
I was wondering if somebody could shed some light on this.
Arakadia3 votesI was wondering if somebody could *Shen some light on this.
Fixed.
Im glad though others care about the Eye of Twilight, he's not the most popular.
Melledoneus2 votesNice one. And yeah, I'd give up that Q for tank stats any day.
Sahn Uzal2 votesRiver Shen has been dominating for multiple Seasons now, Riot simply had to do something about it. Sadly, Top, jungle, support and Midlane shen have become a victim of the results
AmetDeCrypt2 votesI dunno, I feel pretty tanky when I play him, and my damage is still pretty good.
Melledoneus3 votesHe doesn't stand a chance tank-wise compared to some juggernauts and other tanks. Nautilus and Poppy are tanks who are much more capable stat-wise and because of their bonuses. I shouldn't have to take scaling armor seals to be even competent armor-wise with Anivia on a tank who prioritizes HP and should naturally have scaling armor.
But sure, let's give a tank what is technically the single worst scaling armor in the game.
AmetDeCrypt3 votesjuggernauts aren't tanks, they're broken because riot hates duelists. poppy isn't a tank, she's an offtank initiator. nautilus is just broken and riot never deems it worth to actually nerf the bastard.
Melledoneus2 votesPoppy's a tank. Nautilus isn't broken, either...
AmetDeCrypt2 votespoppy is not a tank. she is an offtank, I don't know why I need to keep explaining this, tank poppy does 0 damage and needs to build several offensive items like maw and sheen to become relevant damage due to her limited situational cc and average base damages.
Ralanr2 votesWell tanks aren't exactly built to do damage or their damage is supposed to fall off late game. Poppy stays relevant as a Warden who stops dashes from engaging or disengaging from her team. A wall stun to keep targets in place or away from her carries. And the mother of all disengage ultimates.
The only tank that should do damage while being tanky (and by damage I mean a decent threat to everyone. Not just squishy marksmen) is Sion because everything he has is avoidable.
Poppy is a tank.
AmetDeCrypt2 votestanks are champions with natural base damage and crowd control for them to go full tank items and be a relevant threat to squishies lategame, because if they are just a brick they can just be ignored. the offtanks and bruisers have better scalings, lower base damages, and defensive steroids in order to make up for not building as tanky as a full tank. see Poppy's passive and w passive, jax ult, Irelia passive, olaf's ult passive and w, and even indirect things like gp orange, khazix ult, and shaco q/ult in terms of damage avoiding.
yes, poppy can be built as a full tank and it can work, but she then becomes a glorified support in terms of what she can actually do because she has no damage. Offtank poppy with a sheen and ad item like maw into full tank works just like olaf and his BC titanic hydra or frozen mallet into full tank, it's just far better in terms of efficiency and their impact on games.
Ralanr2 votesI'd argue with you, but I'll admit it's been hard as hell to play full tank poppy ever since her nerfs.
PermabannedGaren2 votestanks are champions with natural base damage and crowd control for them to go full tank items and be a relevant threat to squishies lategame, because if they are just a brick they can just be ignored. the offtanks and bruisers have better scalings, lower base damages, and defensive steroids in order to make up for not building as tanky as a full tank. see Poppy's passive and w passive, jax ult, Irelia passive, olaf's ult passive and w, and even indirect things like gp orange, khazix ult, and shaco q/ult in terms of damage avoiding.
yes, poppy can be built as a full tank and it can work, but she then becomes a glorified support in terms of what she can actually do because she has no damage. Offtank poppy with a sheen and ad item like maw into full tank works just like olaf and his BC titanic hydra or frozen mallet into full tank, it's just far better in terms of efficiency and their impact on games.
Very few tanks are a relevant threat to ADCs late game. They aren't even really significant threats to some mages. Tank damage almost always falls off.
Also, plenty of tanks have defensive steroids. Malphite is a tank and has two.
Tanks are glorified supports past laning phase.
AmetDeCrypt1 votesI disagree highly. their damage is never meant to outright kill carries lategame, but champions like maokai are able to jump to a target and sit on them for quite a while, taking maybe 1k off their hp bar if he lands all his skills right. the combination of lockdown and enough damage to make the enemy take notice is what makes him a good tank. if he just did 0 damage there'd be no reason to try to peel him off and not just focus on the back line. before that endgame scenario but after the laning phase at around 2-3 items, maokai is incredibly scary to even 2-3 people at a time. their damage "falls of" yes, but that doesn't mean it's gone. old taric was a brick, the only reason you'd be scared of him in a fight was his stun. when it was down, he was easily ignored and he couldn't do anything. in short, he couldn't draw any aggro and was truly just a support lategame.
what you're arguing goes contradictory to most anyone else who complains on the forums that tanks do too much damage.
Melledoneus2 votesHer primary role is listed as "Tank."
AmetDeCrypt1 votesand yi's primay role is listed as assassin. your point?
Melledoneus3 votesTo be honest Yi is played like an assassin. He runs up to you with ludicrous attack speed and you melt in seconds. He has an untargetability move and dashes to his first opponent, and he gets resets upon kills. Sounds very assassin-like to me.
AmetDeCrypt2 votesreally? so aatrox is an assassin? yasuo is an assassin? the champs that run up to you and smack you around with swords and adc items until you die can hardly be called assassins, and even riot agrees they need to be reclassified.
Melledoneus3 votesAatrox doesn't have the extreme mobility or sticking potential to be considered an assassin.
Yasuo is technically an assassin with those crits, but Riot calls them "slayers."
AmetDeCrypt1 voteshe has a jump, a slow, and a knockup. I'd say that's some good mobility and sticking power. though I disagree that sticking power and mobility is an assassin only power. what they often have is situational mobility and outplay potential and good burst with their combos. YI's damage is definitely up there with the assassins as he was designed with that in mind, but it's all sunken into his auto attacks, adc itemisation, and tank stats he gets with his heal. what this means is that burst that was intended to only be short lived is now a consistent damage output giving him that infamous runaway penta potential that a true assassin can only dream of.
Melledoneus2 votesI mean, some assassins rely on autos. Attack speed Zed is still considered an assassin. Talon relies on getting off autos in his spell rotation. Nocturne is an assassin who autos, and so does Rengar.
Also, "infamous runaway penta potential" is not Yi-exclusive. Katarina is just as likely, if not more, to get a penta by cleaning up fights.
AmetDeCrypt1 votesbut do they rely on it 100% like yi does. yi has a passive that makes his autos better, a q that is reset on his auto attacks, a w that heals him and makes him tanky in the middle of a fight, and an e that he just presses and makes his autos better.
Melledoneus1 votesNocturne relies on his autos just as much as Yi does, and he's an assassin.
Ravenous Howls2 voteshe has a jump, a slow, and a knockup. I'd say that's some good mobility and sticking power. though I disagree that sticking power and mobility is an assassin only power. what they often have is situational mobility and outplay potential and good burst with their combos. YI's damage is definitely up there with the assassins as he was designed with that in mind, but it's all sunken into his auto attacks, adc itemisation, and tank stats he gets with his heal. what this means is that burst that was intended to only be short lived is now a consistent damage output giving him that infamous runaway penta potential that a true assassin can only dream of.
Assassin means they can jump in and out of a fight and kill a target with impunity. Aatrox doesn't fit that at all. He's a good diver and single target duelist with sustained damage but that's about it.
Yi can not be targeted in his alpha strike, deals absurd amounts of damage and is slow immune in his ult with kills giving him increased duration. He is also bursty as hell with a Shiv and IE. The hall marks of most Assassins are high mobility, damage and burst. Yi fits all of those and Aatrox none.
AmetDeCrypt1 votessure. but he also continues on after that burst to do high consistent damage, something other assassins can not do. and he usually builds several tank items and or lifesteal in order to stay in those fights for extended periods of time. my point in bringing him up is yi is very much like aatrox, sustained diving duelists. xin zhao can also jump on a target and pretty much melt them in seconds but he isn't an assassin either.
Ralanr1 votesThat's cause Xin is a diver.
Yi is probably more of a skirmisher than slayer imo.
Ravenous Howls1 votesI don't think I've ever seen a tank Yi like we've seen a tank Yasuo. Yi builds LS yes but at most his defenses would be from TF for the health, tabi's for some armor, Maw or Mercurial for some MR but that's it. Aatrox has to build tanky b/c he has no natural defenses in his Kit outside of his LS every third hit which is not consistent without a truck load of AS or his passive which makes him a good initiator but a poor assasin.
Comparing Yi and Aatrox is a grasping metaphor that doesn't really resonate. Yi has true damage, sustain and high mobility that allows him to go in and assassinate a high priority target or 5 and then take two towers. Aatrox can duel 1v1 but has poor team fight presence. His Dark Flight is interrupted easily, his slow is easy to avoid and he's not that hard to kite.
If you ask me Yi fills too many roles in his kit. Burst, sustained and true damge, sustain, AA resets, no targeting abilities and high mobility and slow immunity. The only thing that saves him from true OP status is that he's got a bad early game and if he get's starved from kills then he's useless. Those are big if's in my opinion.
Aatrox is not even comparable nor Xin. Neither of them do the amount of thing's Yi can do.
AmetDeCrypt1 votescause they nerfed tank yi the right way by making his damage dependent on actually building damage. I don't disagree yi does too much, but they're pretty similar in my opinion, xin and aatrox can be pretty bursty especially if they've gotten any kills, and aatrox in teamfights merely needs to pop his ult like yi, take all that damage for his passive and come back when his disruption has done its part.
Hyperiön2 votesPoppy is a Vanguard
DunkinNoobs2 votesShen has finally fulfilled his fantasy as a ninja and become unseen in my games. And I couldn't be happier.
Akali is SO HOT1 votesWhy can't the elephant be orange you jerk
lightdragoon881 votesIf I remember correctly Riot stating that they will do another rework of him sometime next season.
Melledoneus1 votesWait, really? I'd like to see that, this is the first I'm hearing of it.
lightdragoon881 votesAt the moment we don't have any plans to work on Shen because we believe we'd get bigger overall improvements to the game by putting that time into other champions in need (e.g. the Yorick rework that will be the next full update after Taric). It doesn't feel great leaving an update with some clear thematic issues like that, but going back to Shen would have to come at the expense of work on another champion so we had to make a priority call.
I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say we'd never make changes to Shen. It's entirely possible there's a point in which it does make sense to do further art impacting work on him. I don't believe that will be any time soon though, so wanted to be open about that. I also wanted to acknowledge that we weren't completely happy with Shen either, and felt there was a good reminder for us about theme in champion updates from his rework.
Ravenous Howls1 votesTo the OP.
I believe that they are planning on reverting the nerfs to Shen after worlds. But Shen actually makes for a very effective tank still and his kit has a lot of effective health built into it.
His passive gives him a shield and it's up pretty frequently as Twilight Assault and Shadow Dash both reduce it's cool down by a large amount.
His W is great at negating damage and if you time abilities well you can proc your passive shield multiple times in a single trade.
The damage on his Q is fantastic and allows him to do decent damage to other tanks later in the game even if you go full tank or if you build him more bruiser like (my favorite personally) he hit's like a truck.
I agree his base stats don't look that good next to other tank's but if you look at all the effective health and safety that is built into his kit I think you'll find he's not that bad off either.
