Zoe's W Should be reworked badly. Here is why.

Eternal Torment··25 votes·8,675 views

Honestly, Most people keep complaining about Zoe's Q-E Damage and synergy when that isn't even the biggest problem about her. Sure, her burst is stupidly frustrating AND safe, but if you were to ask me, I think her problem is her W.

Why?

Short version: It literally breaks the game

Long version: Within League of Legends, there are certain mechanical aspects that could be considered the Fundamental Laws of this game and how it works. They are always simple to understand, such as: If you have 0 HP, you are dead. Simple, and true in all cases. One such Fundamental Law is that Each Champion, or in other words Each Player, is restricted to two summoners of their choice, said choice made in the Champion Select.

So Someone here explain me who had the idea to smoke so much weed that they thought it was shits and giggles to BREAK A FUNDAMENTAL LAW OF LOLS GAMING MECHANICS AND INVENT A CHAMPION WITH THE CAPABILITY OF USING THE ENTIRE SUMMONER SPELLS ROSTER, OR 4 TO 10 FLASHES IN A ROW, IN A SINGLE GAME!! Because of Zoe's W she can straight up CHEAT Summoner spells cooldowns by randomly popping them from minions, or use the enemy's summoners because they were dumb enough to use it.

Summoner spells were meant to be high cooldown-high impact aces in the hole to empower YOUR temporary momentum. Instead, with Zoe, You go full Mark Fuhrman on that fact and use other's summoner spells against them. The very Idea that you, and very commonly I add, you can proc two ignites in a row for 8 seconds of constant true damage that demolish any healing you have is absurd and I daresay a legalized cheat. Worse if that is possible to do, and as said, highly common in early game.

Zoe's W Should be reworked on the spot, she is literally the first step to ACTUALLY BREAKING THIS GAME. No champion should be ALLOWED to cheat the game's core mechanics which are laws indiscriminatingly in effect for EVERY. SINGLE. PLAYER. EVER.

Why even script if you can just use zoe? Abuse Summoner spell spam and get away with it completely because guess what? Riot made it, so they allow it. Unconditionally no less.

And yes, I am aware that I sound, or in this case write, really fucking salty. It's because I am slowly but surely getting tired of people complainging about the right champions but over the wrong reasons.

43 Comments

Akali is SO HOT4 votes

I just want Cleanse and Exhaust to be removed from drops she can get. Those can be completely game changing during laning phase.

Eternal Torment5 votes

every summoner spell can become gamechanging to her. Imagine dropping 2 ignites, then probably also a redsmite on the enemy laner after the jungler miraculously fucks up the gank, which is not even a rarity. At lvl 3. No matter at what stage of the game and no matter which summoner spells it is, you can't fight zoe. ever. because of one single fucking spell.

VoraciousX2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eternal Torment,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ym2XAkHh,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-08-03T06:20:54.441+0000)

every summoner spell can become gamechanging to her. Imagine dropping 2 ignites, then probably also a redsmite on the enemy laner after the jungler miraculously fucks up the gank, which is not even a rarity. At lvl 3. No matter at what stage of the game and no matter which summoner spells it is, you can't fight zoe. ever. because of one single fucking spell.

I think you're severely overestimating Zoe. She has a 50% win rate, not a 100% win rate(meaning you can indeed fight her). You can stomp her into the ground as long as you don't get hit by bubbles, which isn't hard to avoid, and if you have a problem dodging them, you can take cleanse. I've played Zoe, had good games, had bad games. She has terrible early game damage outside of her W, which you can deny at that point because her waveclear sucks, unless she uses minion dematerializer(I was sucking with Zoe until I started using it like everyone else). So play safe for 6 cannon waves(or zone her away from the pickups that drop) after the first(because it's not available during the first) and you're good.

Eternal Torment1 votes

The problem isn't even primarily the power up she gets from it. it's the fact she can get summ spells beyond her own two to begin with. That is straight up a cheat in the system Riot legalizes and her Earlygame is halfway balanced around just it, the other half being a successful E-Q combo. One skill shouldn't be the entire A and O of someone's phase. That, if anything, underlines how bad of a balance the skill has.

And Zoe doesn't have waveclear...up until lvl 5 where her Q starts to actually hit hard on it's own and with it's AoE she can demolish a minion lineup. Sure, it's not ideal by far but she can play around it just fine without needing a damn summoner spells to get her laning phase done.

Last but not least. Zoe's stats are winrates for games, not winrates for lanes. Zoe is made to win lane, and thats what she does. Whether the game is one is another story, but god fucking DAMNIT is it hard to lose lane when youre a Zoe player simply because of her W.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Play safe for 6 cannon waves. Every second wave is a cannon. 12 waves. 6 minutes of me not getting to play league of legends because zoe is a thing. Great design, no problem here.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

I think you're severely overestimating Zoe. She has a 50% win rate, not a 100% win rate(meaning you can indeed fight her). You can stomp her into the ground as long as you don't get hit by bubbles, which isn't hard to avoid, and if you have a problem dodging them, you can take cleanse. I've played Zoe, had good games, had bad games. She has terrible early game damage outside of her W, which you can deny at that point because her waveclear sucks, unless she uses minion dematerializer(I was sucking with Zoe until I started using it like everyone else). So play safe for 6 cannon waves(or zone her away from the pickups that drop) after the first(because it's not available during the first) and you're good.

OP is focused on W, they don't care about anything else because those are not her core issues (as u also seem to be getting at). Its not about her win rate. Its about a game breaking mechanic that needs to be changed.

VoraciousX1 votes

{quoted}

OP is focused on W, they don't care about anything else because those are not her core issues (as u also seem to be getting at). Its not about her win rate. Its about a game breaking mechanic that needs to be changed.

OP is saying that you cannot fight Zoe, which is untrue. Also, it's not a game breaking mechanic and his logic is flawed.

Long version: Within League of Legends, there are certain mechanical aspects that could be considered the Fundamental Laws of this game and >how it works. They are always simple to understand, such as: If you have 0 HP, you are dead. Simple, and true in all cases.

Sion, old Zyra, Karthus, Zilean ult, GA, etc.

One such Fundamental Law is that Each Champion, or in other words Each Player, is restricted to two summoners of their choice, said choice >made in the Champion Select.

Unsealed Spellbook.

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ym2XAkHh,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-08-03T18:32:32.388+0000)

I think the worst adpects about her W are.

  • The RNG of her drops
  • Not only turning you're summoners and actives against you, but also getting way more benefit from them.

Especially the second part imo is more than enough reason to remove the abillity from the game. Useing a sommoner spell is and always should be trading a big CD for an advantage, and everyone has acces to that. Vs Zoe, you don't, becuase if you use you're summoner against her, she will throw it back at you and on top of that gain a massive speedboost and solid extra damage, so useing summoners agaonst her puts me into a disasvantage which is the opposit of what should happen. Even worse, it's also stealing item actives the same way, so investing gold for that active ends up with you either not useing the active or giving Zoe an advantage over you. She makes you feel bad about getting any item with active just by her raw existance, and i have no idea how riot could ever allow something like that in the game.

I think maybe it's true that item actives shouldn't be part of the formula, but I feel like Riot did a really good thing with Zoe and flash. It makes people think twice about taking flash(even though people still do) vs her, because if you flash, she flashes, assuming she can get in range to pick it up without being pushed off of it. People complained about flash being so dominant, and Zoe offers a means to make it less dominant, but people still choose to take it despite knowing it'll give Zoe more of an advantage. I guess old habits die hard.

[{quoted}](name=Eternal Torment,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ym2XAkHh,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-03T12:13:53.947+0000)

The problem isn't even primarily the power up she gets from it. it's the fact she can get summ spells beyond her own two to begin with. That is straight up a cheat in the system Riot legalizes and her Earlygame is halfway balanced around just it, the other half being a successful E-Q combo. One skill shouldn't be the entire A and O of someone's phase. That, if anything, underlines how bad of a balance the skill has.

And Zoe doesn't have waveclear...up until lvl 5 where her Q starts to actually hit hard on it's own and with it's AoE she can demolish a minion lineup. Sure, it's not ideal by far but she can play around it just fine without needing a damn summoner spells to get her laning phase done.

Last but not least. Zoe's stats are winrates for games, not winrates for lanes. Zoe is made to win lane, and thats what she does. Whether the game is one is another story, but god fucking DAMNIT is it hard to lose lane when youre a Zoe player simply because of her W.

Is it now? Aurelion Sol seems to dumpster her pretty hard, as does Wukong(although not a traditional mid laner), Kled(same as before), Malzahar, Annie, Anivia, Lux, Swain, Zilean, Fizz, Pantheon, and several others. She has a positive win rate vs 15 champions, and a negative win rate(going down as far as 40%) vs the other 30 listed for mid laners. Out of those, quite a few stay in the lead for the whole game, or at least surpass her by the 10 minute mark.

{quoted}

Play safe for 6 cannon waves. Every second wave is a cannon. 12 waves. 6 minutes of me not getting to play league of legends because zoe is a thing. Great design, no problem here.

Did you miss the part of "Or zone her away from the pickups"? Zoe can't even come near you in the laning phase until 6 without flash, and if she flashes you can cleanse. If she has ignite you can both cleanse her bubble and her ignite for a 2 for 1 negating a ton of damage. Zoe's weak af early. Maybe she is a problem when she uses electrocute. Most use Aery, so I wouldn't know, but everyone who uses electrocute is a problem because it's a crutch rune designed for assassins to win the laning phase.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

I think u make good points, i for one just think it could be tweaked a bit, like no active/summoners drops from Minions, just the simple base spell if they must keep the minion drop. They should allow enemy champions to step on the shards for a duration to destroy them (as not every champion is good at effectively zoning an area) They could weaken the effects of the actives/summoners Zoe steals, and let casting her own summoners activate the W as well They could put a unit CD on each champion that uses actives/summoners near Zoe.

VoraciousX1 votes

{quoted}

I think u make good points, i for one just think it could be tweaked a bit, like no active/summoners drops from Minions, just the simple base spell if they must keep the minion drop. They should allow enemy champions to step on the shards for a duration to destroy them (as not every champion is good at effectively zoning an area) They could weaken the effects of the actives/summoners Zoe steals, and let casting her own summoners activate the W as well They could put a unit CD on each champion that uses actives/summoners near Zoe.

I think if we were to allow enemies of Zoe to completely deny an ability of another champion, that'd be bad design. Zoe's gonna need her W in fights in most occasions unless she's fed. I suppose there could be a counterplayable solution though such as making people be up close to the summoner, and having them right click it and go into a channel for 1.5 seconds before it's destroyed so they're at least vulnerable. Zoe's waveclear is god awful early game, making it already hard to get minion procs without minion dematerializer. So if you deny her a summoner from minion dematerializer procs, you'd basically be denying her early game, forcing her to starve and making her useless late game. There'd need to be high risk involved with that in my opinion. It's no fun Qing a whole minion wave later in the game and having every single caster minion have a sliver of health left where everyone else is one shotting them.

I think people just need to play her more so they can exploit her weaknesses(and possibly stop being stupid and taking ignite because they're damage whores). I don't find many problems fighting Zoe.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

Poppy, Zyra, Rek'Sai and Bard have abilities that rely on objects on the ground that can be stepped on to destroy to name a few. But perhaps Zoe is a slightly different case, that can be debated. In terms of being vunerable to destroy the spell shard, Rek'sai is a good example, because enemies have to stand on the Tunnel for 2 sec to destroy them which makes it easy for Rek'sai to use Q or use the Tunnel b4 its destroyed.

Anyways i feel like W would be MUCH better if it just didn't give active/summoners for minion drops, and in fact it could be argued that its OK for enemy champions to NOT have a way to destroy them if Zoe can ONLY get actives/summoners from enemies, because then its up to the enemy to either decided where and when to use an active/summer and how they will protect it, and its no longer up to the RNG of a minion and a random shard drop which seems unfair and puts more power into Zoe's hand than the opponents depending on the shard drop type.

VoraciousX1 votes

{quoted}

Poppy, Zyra, Rek'Sai and Bard have abilities that rely on objects on the ground that can be stepped on to destroy to name a few. But perhaps Zoe is a slightly different case, that can be debated. In terms of being vunerable to destroy the spell shard, Rek'sai is a good example, because enemies have to stand on the Tunnel for 2 sec to destroy them which makes it easy for Rek'sai to use Q or use the Tunnel b4 its destroyed.

Anyways i feel like W would be MUCH better if it just didn't give active/summoners for minion drops, and in fact it could be argued that its OK for enemy champions to NOT have a way to destroy them if Zoe can ONLY get actives/summoners from enemies, because then its up to the enemy to either decided where and when to use an active/summer and how they will protect it, and its no longer up to the RNG of a minion and a random shard drop which seems unfair and puts more power into Zoe's hand than the opponents depending on the shard drop type.

Context is important though. Zyra places her abilities where she wants, and can activate them at any time, Bard does as well, and will usually place them out of reach of the enemy, and Poppy's shield only drops if she doesn't kill a minion with it, or hits an enemy champion, and in those cases it always flies AWAY from the enemy TOWARD Poppy, which honestly is just another gimmick to make the enemy vulnerable. Zoe cannot choose where it drops, and most of the time it's dropped away from Zoe in a position that she has to make herself vulnerable to pick it up, which is unlike any of the champions you mentioned.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

Context is important though. Zyra places her abilities where she wants, and can activate them at any time, Bard does as well, and will usually place them out of reach of the enemy, and Poppy's shield only drops if she doesn't kill a minion with it, or hits an enemy champion, and in those cases it always flies AWAY from the enemy TOWARD Poppy, which honestly is just another gimmick to make the enemy vulnerable. Zoe cannot choose where it drops, and most of the time it's dropped away from Zoe in a position that she has to make herself vulnerable to pick it up, which is unlike any of the champions you mentioned.

u make good points, whats ur opinion on letting minions drop actives/summoners vs just a normal W activate?

VoraciousX1 votes

{quoted}

u make good points, whats ur opinion on letting minions drop actives/summoners vs just a normal W activate?

I feel like if Zoe could activate her W at will it'd make her land her Es too easily, and remove a high moment from Zoe, and I feel like if she had to kill minions to proc a regular W, it wouldn't make any sense as no other champion in the game has to kill a minion to be able to use their abilities, nor should they. It'd also need to be buffed considerably because a large part of W is that the more ranks in W, the more often the balloons appear in my experience. They'd also have to give it a mana cost, which would make it need another buff on top of buffing it for the loss of the summoners/item actives. I think if Zoe needed some form of considerable nerf(I don't feel like she needs to be nerfed though, as I said she only has a similar amount of counters to other burst mages and her biggest counters actually have a higher win rate vs her than other burst mage counters and they have a less amount of bigger counters), it should maybe be a nerf to the cooldown on her ultimate. You can't nerf a burst mage's damage to where it doesn't burst and her damage has been steadily nerfed time and time again.

Honestly I didn't feel Zoe was that ridiculous before all her consistent nerfs, aside from her E cooldown being too low, and my suggestion to that was to increase her E cooldown to like 20 seconds at rank 1 and lower it to like 16 seconds at max rank, and to increase the cooldown reduction when she hit her E by like 60% so it'd be a little bit less than what it was at the time so she'd be more relegated to requiring to land her E's, and be punished way harder when she missed one, and that would make her risk/reward aspect much easier to exploit. Of course no one listened though and now she feels bad to play early, has terrible waveclear unless she has minion dematerializer and is ahead, and people still complain about her one shotting them. What's worse, some Zoe's are taking Electrocute now apparently, and it has a higher win rate than Aery(albeit with a lower sample size), and that's making people cry that she's busted again, without looking at the fact that Electrocute is being nerfed, as is Celerity, as is sudden impact, all of which she uses in her electrocute rune setup. Keep in mind I don't actually play Zoe very much, but I know enough about her to know she's pretty balanced. She may not feel like it when she's strong, but she is. She's also deceptively immobile which can be used against her, and very telegraphed. You know how you can stand on a Leblanc W so when she goes back to it you can get her? Well Zoe's like that, but she's ALWAYS gonna go back to her original position and you can just walk straight toward her because she can't move away while casting it.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

I feel like if Zoe could activate her W at will it'd make her land her Es too easily, and remove a high moment from Zoe, and I feel like if she had to kill minions to proc a regular W, it wouldn't make any sense as no other champion in the game has to kill a minion to be able to use their abilities, nor should they. It'd also need to be buffed considerably because a large part of W is that the more ranks in W, the more often the balloons appear in my experience. They'd also have to give it a mana cost, which would make it need another buff on top of buffing it for the loss of the summoners/item actives. I think if Zoe needed some form of considerable nerf(I don't feel like she needs to be nerfed though, as I said she only has a similar amount of counters to other burst mages and her biggest counters actually have a higher win rate vs her than other burst mage counters and they have a less amount of bigger counters), it should maybe be a nerf to the cooldown on her ultimate. You can't nerf a burst mage's damage to where it doesn't burst and her damage has been steadily nerfed time and time again.

Honestly I didn't feel Zoe was that ridiculous before all her consistent nerfs, aside from her E cooldown being too low, and my suggestion to that was to increase her E cooldown to like 20 seconds at rank 1 and lower it to like 16 seconds at max rank, and to increase the cooldown reduction when she hit her E by like 60% so it'd be a little bit less than what it was at the time so she'd be more relegated to requiring to land her E's, and be punished way harder when she missed one, and that would make her risk/reward aspect much easier to exploit. Of course no one listened though and now she feels bad to play early, has terrible waveclear unless she has minion dematerializer and is ahead, and people still complain about her one shotting them. What's worse, some Zoe's are taking Electrocute now apparently, and it has a higher win rate than Aery(albeit with a lower sample size), and that's making people cry that she's busted again, without looking at the fact that Electrocute is being nerfed, as is Celerity, as is sudden impact, all of which she uses in her electrocute rune setup. Keep in mind I don't actually play Zoe very much, but I know enough about her to know she's pretty balanced. She may not feel like it when she's strong, but she is. She's also deceptively immobile which can be used against her, and very telegraphed. You know how you can stand on a Leblanc W so when she goes back to it you can get her? Well Zoe's like that, but she's ALWAYS gonna go back to her original position and you can just walk straight toward her because she can't move away while casting it.

i just feel like its not ok to take a certain amount of power out of the opponents hands and have them play with Zoe's minion balloon game with the sorts of stuff she can pull out. What if they made it like Klepto then? where the Minion balloons give smaller types of stuff?

VoraciousX1 votes

{quoted}

i just feel like its not ok to take a certain amount of power out of the opponents hands and have them play with Zoe's minion balloon game with the sorts of stuff she can pull out. What if they made it like Klepto then? where the Minion balloons give smaller types of stuff?

Klepto's things that it gives are anything but small, and Klepto also gives bonus gold. And the power is in their hands. Make Zoe miss the minion. She can only use minion dematerializer 6 times total in a game. The key to beating Zoe isn't to stand passively back and stall out the laning phase until you get your items. You need to play aggressively vs her. There are plenty of aggressive champions in League to counter her. Why do you think she has a 40% win rate vs Wukong and Kled? Hell she has a 43% win rate vs Annie.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

Klepto's things that it gives are anything but small, and Klepto also gives bonus gold. And the power is in their hands. Make Zoe miss the minion. She can only use minion dematerializer 6 times total in a game. The key to beating Zoe isn't to stand passively back and stall out the laning phase until you get your items. You need to play aggressively vs her. There are plenty of aggressive champions in League to counter her. Why do you think she has a 40% win rate vs Wukong and Kled? Hell she has a 43% win rate vs Annie.

idk, just give her small random consumables (not gold) that don't impact the game that much from minions

Akali is SO HOT3 votes

Her getting a free Summoner Spell is already super powerful on it's own, but I think that Cleanse and Exhaust especially are super busted. Teleport was removed from drops for a good reason and I think those 2 should be as well. Her getting a free ignite from a drop is also super annoying, but I don't think it's that busted.

Sirsir1 votes

Don't forget redemption

LeftyRaydy1 votes

This happened to me 2 ignites....... lvl 2 she used hers at the start of the trade and then picked one up to finish me off....

Jefftiffy2 votes

Me personally: Make ignite through her W do half damage or half duration and have redemption no longer drop from minions.

HonestJohnTheCon2 votes

Actually, why target Ignite specifically? Just halve her damage/healing/cc duration from summoner spells. Make it sort of like Kleptomancy, where you can get a lot of stuff but it's mostly pretty small. Small things can still tilt the game in your favor if used correctly, so why is every summoner/item active drop at full power?

Psyrix2 votes

Honestly.. im fine keeping the summoner spell steal gimmick.. what needs to change is the huge amt of movespeed she gets.. up to 70% is busted.. maximum of 30-50% should be the caveat... she should also get slightly nerfed versions of the summoners, i think that would in the end balance her.

RainXBlade2 votes

Just delete Zoe in general. Her entire kit is oppressive to deal with.

HolyJellyMate1 votes

I think ignite and redemption are the main spells/item actives that should be removed from the W. And she should only be able to get one other flash (for a certain amount of time). I honestly think that's one good step to balancing Zoe, she wouldn't be gutted and she would stop being so annoying.

Eternal Torment2 votes

Yeah, her W ideally shouldn't pick up summoner spells at all. If anything, it should just be the main spell in itself. the 3 ahri-copypasta spheres that do damage and a movement speed buff. That already is more than enough and it synergizes well with her kit as well

AirKingNeo1 votes

heck if they wanna make it have some RNG still, change it so 3 orbs dealing damage and all allies around you gain 1 of 3 effects: 1) 20%/22.5%/25%/27.5%/30% movement speed for 2 seconds. 2) 10%/12.5%/15%/17.5%/20% missing health as a shield. 3) Have their next instance of damage deal an additional 5/10/15/20/25 (+20% bonus AD)(+10% AP) as damage over 5 seconds.

Still RNG, but less cancerous and not really enemy painful.

HonestJohnTheCon2 votes

Her W with just the spheres would feel really bad though, because it 1) makes no sense thematically and 2) feels bad to use, as many Ahri players will attest to.

Her W should still deliver on the feeling of her being a trickster after the change, even if it's in a less game-breaking way. But if it was just the orbs, she'd just be another combo burst mage. Which feels pretty bad as a Zoe player.

Vlada Cut1 votes

{quoted}

I think ignite and redemption are the main spells/item actives that should be removed from the W. And she should only be able to get one other flash (for a certain amount of time). I honestly think that's one good step to balancing Zoe, she wouldn't be gutted and she would stop being so annoying.

They already gutted her W by decreasing the numbers and removing TP from it.

Flashes1 votes

{quoted}

I think ignite and redemption are the main spells/item actives that should be removed from the W. And she should only be able to get one other flash (for a certain amount of time). I honestly think that's one good step to balancing Zoe, she wouldn't be gutted and she would stop being so annoying.

Redemption is extremely overpowered not because of the ability in using it during lane, but the ability to help bot lane with a hefty 150 hp heal along with potential damage to the enemy champs, in addition to helping them push a wave.

It's ridiculous.

VoraciousX1 votes

Zoe has no damage early game, without those spells she can't get ahead and her W is not really that strong without the summoner spell included. It gives her movement speed and a tiny bit of damage, but nowhere near enough to kill someone with a full combo unless you were fed.

Eternal Torment2 votes

She has no damage earlygame but can take 2/3 of your health at lvl 2 with a Q-E and one AA combo.

that damage excludes the bonus from electrocute.

Her W if anything should serve as utility to help her position by giving her faster movement speed. Her W in the hands of a skilled man make every difference between hitting and missing her E without walls to use.

Sirsir1 votes

It doesn't even feel right in her kit. Its a support ability, with a forced damage aspect, on a burst mage. THAT ALSO takes up a skill slot which means she has all her main damage on 2 skills.

I swear CertainlyT designs champs just by taking "It'd be cool if" statements and balloon-animaling them into a champion

hhaavviikk1 votes

don't rework zoe's W, just rework zoe, she's a failure, riot hated old nidalee who sits back and spams Q so they kept nerfing it then they create a champions who's litteral design it is to sit back and spam q/e like come on riot, I know you let CertainlyT do whatever the balls he wants but you should have known better

Teridax681 votes

Agreed. For all the unreliability tied to RNG summoner spells, the fundamental problem is that almost every single summoner spell and item active is designed to be used reliably. Ignite is a prime example of an effect whose high, reliable damage is meant to be counterbalanced by its high cooldown. When a champion is incentivized to use such an effect as soon as possible, with no real cost or cooldown to speak of (Zoe can quickly get another bubble to play with), nothing good comes of it, especially in lane. I feel it might help to switch her W and R around, just so that she can avoid having that kind of unhealthy mechanic in lane for too long. In the meantime, her innate needs to be adjusted so that it doesn't deal as much damage, as it's also too reliable for a champion whose kill potential is meant to revolve around her Q.

mack91121 votes

It definitely feels a little too cherry on top l

Call Me Nana1 votes

Zoe can never use 10 flashes in a row, the maximum she could use would be 6 including her own. She doesn't pick up ALLIED spells, only enemy spells.

Just an fyi.

Sire Hippington1 votes

I think the worst adpects about her W are.

  • The RNG of her drops
  • Not only turning you're summoners and actives against you, but also getting way more benefit from them.

Especially the second part imo is more than enough reason to remove the abillity from the game. Useing a sommoner spell is and always should be trading a big CD for an advantage, and everyone has acces to that. Vs Zoe, you don't, becuase if you use you're summoner against her, she will throw it back at you and on top of that gain a massive speedboost and solid extra damage, so useing summoners agaonst her puts me into a disasvantage which is the opposit of what should happen. Even worse, it's also stealing item actives the same way, so investing gold for that active ends up with you either not useing the active or giving Zoe an advantage over you. She makes you feel bad about getting any item with active just by her raw existance, and i have no idea how riot could ever allow something like that in the game.

JoeAnarchy1 votes

just make her W cast redemption. heals your team, harms enemy team, but only for a scaling amount based on ranks in the skill. get rid of all the other trash parts of it. it would go more with her character, the last Twilight aspect taught mortals how to imprison the darkin. she hurt the darkin and helped everyone else. her W would reflect that action in her story. (yes i know Zoe isn't the exact same character, but still host the same aspect)

Mister Modesty1 votes

My largest concern with Zoe is her Ult. She's the ONLY champion allowed to move after being hit with a Bard Ult. Nothing stops her from teleporting back except for dying.

FurriesAreHot1 votes

She also moves at mach 5 when she uses it

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

They need the remove actives from minions and just make the base spell drop from minions (if they MUST keep the minion balloons) they need to reduced the effectiveness of stolen spells they need to allow enemy champions to stand on spell shards for a short duration to destroy them

They could also add an unit CD for each champion that drops a shard. So until the unit CD on the champion runs down they can use actives and summoner spells and they won't drop a shard. This allows opponents to try to be smart about what active/summoner spell they use 1st so they can deny Zoe a 2nd spell shard soon after.

ImGodlyatYasuo1 votes

LOL BUT IF YOU BUFF THE PARTS OF HER THAT ARENT HER W AFTER THESE NERFS YALL GONNA BE HOPPING ON THE W WAS NEVER A PROBLEM CHAIN..

zaire901 votes

You say when a champs hp hits zero they die and thats a fundamental law but that law has been broken already by items and by champs. Hell revive used to be a thing. And the other is not every champ gets 2 summoner spells because theres key stone that lets them swap through every summoner spell in the game

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