"Mechanically difficult champions are forgiving and thus remove strategy"

Mira Arya Enthe··6 votes·1,344 views

First of all wut? Second of all, I get what you are attempting to say, because a champion is mechanically challenging, they have more options to get out of situations they created. And while true, this is far from removing strategy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7IJVXL9Xm4

Here is a coaching of a Silver Riven vs a Pantheon with exhaust. Listen how much the coach talks about stats, map awareness, wave control, strategy, items, summoners spells. And how little he talks about actual mechanics.

Also there is a coaching by LS of a Riven vs Tryndamere, where again, all he talks about is wave control, when to engage, how not to get caught out, warding, TP ganks and so forth. And the only mention of mechanics is "Try to work on your cancels in a custom."

Why? Because excelling at League is mostly about overall strategy, understanding, numbers and control. Mechanics are just a way to play around your opponent, and every champion has them. Some are just harder to learn their mechanics, while others are easier.

My main Shyvana, has very little in terms of mechanical difficulty, but is viable from Bronze to Challenger, and can kill people like Riven just as easily, often easier, than Yasuo could. I play her because not mastering mechanics leaves me more space to master other aspects of the game, such as strategy, calculations, map awareness and itemization. If I played a champion like Riven, I am burdening myself with an extra challenge, mastering mechanics as well, but the strategy, calculations, map awareness and itemization are no less important than on Shyvana.

Just as much as Shyvana getting a Titanic Hydra is much better than a Ravenous Hydra and changes how you play with her. Getting a BC on Riven is much better than rushing a Ravenous Hydra and affects how you play her.

Matchups matter MORE on Riven than Shyvana. Shyvana only has 2 mostly "lost" matchups. And map awareness is important for every single role, champion and player.

I am posting this specifically in reaction to boards threads that pretend mechanics champions are specifically overpowered(meanwhile Hecarim, Vi and Shyvana are OP at the moment) and require zero sense of build or strategy. And are especially forgiving when in fact, they tend to be much less forgiving than champions like Shyvana. They don't suggest Garen and Ashe for newcomers because Vayne and Yasuo are easier to play and more forgiving. They suggest Garen and Ashe because their mechanical ease allows focus on more important factors of League first, before getting into matters of complex mechanics on unforgiving, feast or famine champions.

Now, this post in no way takes account for current number balancing. Only a concept. So comments like "But Vayne is overtuned thus easy" or whatever, are not necessary. This is about a general idea.

Thank you, Sincerely - Dragon Lady.

28 Comments

dunder kill5 votes

If you pick a bad fight with Zed or LB, you have a much higher chance of getting back out and salvaging your bad decision. If you pick a bad fight with Diana however, you're dead. The only way you're getting back out is if the enemy lets you walk away. Thats the difference. You don't have to plan as much and aren't punished for your bad decisions as hard as others. Thus removing some strategical decision making because you can make poor decisions and not get punished as hard

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Zed and LeBlanc can get out easier but are squishier and don't have a shield. ._. Meaning they get punished harder if they don't get out.

Dominick Destine2 votes

Yasuo LeeSin are braindead easy faceroll OP champs.

Manaless , ultra high base stats (Including MS) and multiple escape mechanisms... yes, they are incredibly forgiving.

Raiku Kawisa3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YhNzA2h5,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-17T16:05:26.601+0000)

Yasuo LeeSin are braindead easy faceroll OP champs.

Manaless , ultra high base stats (Including MS) and multiple escape mechanisms... yes, they are incredibly forgiving.

Ok, upload a video of you 20+/0 on Lee Sin. He is so easy that this should not be a problem right?

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raiku Kawisa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YhNzA2h5,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-17T18:34:00.653+0000)

upload a video of you 20+/0 on Lee Sin. He is so easy that this should not be a problem

And if I do this, you will admit you were completely wrong, are a terrible judge of balance and be forever subservient to me?

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Can you remove the subservient part? I am scared to ask what you'll make him do. Maybe you'll make him your dentist assistant and make him clean the dirtiest teeth. shudders

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Can you remove the subservient part? I am scared to ask what you'll make him do. Maybe you'll make him your dentist assistant and make him clean the dirtiest teeth.

The joke is not lost.

However, let me explain; Dental assistants do not perform cleanings. You're thinking of dental hygenists... and while there certainly is (a LOT of) overlap, they are not the same thing.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Ah.

Then for purely hypothetical thinking, what would you have him do?

Raiku Kawisa2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YhNzA2h5,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-17T20:47:17.811+0000)

And if I do this, you will admit you were completely wrong, are a terrible judge of balance and be forever subservient to me?

Yes, to all but the last of those. Got to pay for that one.

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raiku Kawisa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YhNzA2h5,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2017-01-18T00:37:20.340+0000)

Yes, to all but the last of those.

Then no deal.

If you make an unreasonable demand, expect to pay an unreasonable price.

Incarceration3 votes

Lul, the guy saying this plays support. A bit hypocritical that you call some of the hardest champions faceroll when all you do press that occasional ability, and use your ridiculous actives.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Lul, the guy saying this plays support. A bit hypocritical that you call some of the hardest champions faceroll when all you do press that occasional ability, and use your ridiculous actives.

https://media.giphy.com/media/o14YPU6vooy0o/giphy.gif

http://na.op.gg/summoner/champions/userName=dominickdestine

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Factually wrong. They have the largest skill growth curves in League. Argument over.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

The ironic thing is that he mains Eve yet calls Lee and Yas braindead.

Not saying that Eve is braindead, but she is much simpler than Yas or Lee.

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

The ironic thing is that he mains Eve yet calls Lee and Yas braindead.

Not saying that Eve is braindead, but she is much simpler than Yas or Lee.

Actually in terms of positioning and timing Evelynn is far more difficult and unforgiving than Captain Faceroll and Admiral Safe-champ.

You actually have to make risk assessment with Evelynn, you have mana limitations and limited scaling with trade-offs. The other two do not.

Incarceration3 votes

"Mana limitations." Lul.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

"Mana limitations."

Yes.

Ironically, though you may fail at understanding this, Evelynn was specifically given mana limitations over the course of multiple years by raising the mana costs of everything, including Hate Spike in conjunction with reducing the mana regeneration of Shadow Walk/adding mana cost to Dark Frenzy. That was the whole point.

Basically your implication only reveals your failure, sir.

Incarceration2 votes

Failure at what, proving that Evelynn doesn't take skill? I'm not implying she doesn't take skill, I'm just implying that's it's a bit hypocritical calling two of the most hardest champions to master braindead. You even went further to prove your point by listing the things you have to manage, and I'm saying that what you are listing doesn't prove shit.

She jungles, she probably has blue buff, and she will rarely run out of mana. I've played Evelynn, and she doesn't run out of mana.

Yasuo is one of the most riskiest champions to play while Lee also has the worst of "limited scaling with trade offs".

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Failure at what [?]

At presenting a coherent argument.

The mana limitations of Evelynn have been built-in and reinforced quite hard. Your argument was atrocious.

calling two of the most hardest champions

AHAHAHAHAHA.

Captain Faceroll and Admiral Safe-champ are not "hard" champions.

Incarceration2 votes

You expected me to make a coherent argument with two words?

What is hard then?

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YhNzA2h5,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-01-18T01:14:36.305+0000)

They have the largest skill

AHAHAHAHAHAHA.

The two easiest champs in the game do not require the most skill. They are far too forgiving for that... manaless with huge base stats and scaling beyond any other champ.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YhNzA2h5,comment-id=000000010001,timestamp=2017-01-18T01:56:08.145+0000)

huge base stats

It's when he applied this one to Yasuo, of any melee carry and most melee champions in general, that he exposed himself as either an incredibly bad troll or dangerously south of average intelligence.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

It's when he applied this one to Yasuo

Stopped reading right there.

Stats don't lie. Compare Yasuo to any/every other mid or most tops aside from juggernauts, you fail.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

I dunno, according to the stats Yasuo has among the lowest AP of all midlaners. :^)

Salron3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YhNzA2h5,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-17T16:05:26.601+0000)

Yasuo

ultra high base stats

Elegiggle

Titanium702 votes

Well... Riven isnt actually the best example most people are arguing about.

Sure she is hard to play - but she has enough space to completely screw up and die for it. If she engages with a JGL nearby - she's dead.

The problem of Riven is her balance state. Riot tries to keep her balanced around all of her unintended cancels and calls this 'skill-cap' - that's what people hate so much about her.

The problem of removing startegy in favor of flashy games is still huge currently.

To much snowball, FAR to much DMG from everyone, resulting in most games becoming a huge clownfiesta 8-10 minutes in.


"WhoIsThisDude"s comment explains the rest of problem I didn't mention here.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

No it doesn't. Zed can disengage easier than Garen because he is also squishy af. So he is punished HARDER if he doesn't get out. As he cannot take more than a hit or two. He has disengage because he is an assasin. Gasp.

Big Lincoln1 votes

buff garen

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