Did the balance/design team just get paid for nothing?

2yordles1cupcake·Dec 19, 2015·9 votes·857 views

http://i.imgur.com/nx8Tzz5.jpg We all know mf will soon join them with nerfs that are lurking over her. http://i.imgur.com/JdLtAVD.jpg We're back to square uno with morde and skarner. While we're at it, why not put a gold crown on top of lee sin's head? Lee is pretty much cancer across all elo in term of popularity.

Are those champ's kits badly designed which is why they fail miserably with every rework, or is it that king lee sin and queen vayne are forbidden from getting dethroned? What was the purpose of the reworks?

19 Comments

Malicious MetalDec 19, 20157 votes

The moment where you love playing 4 of the least picked champions and despise all of the most picked ones >_>

The MechEDec 19, 20156 votes

Are you talking about popularity or win rate? Popularity can be an indicator of imbalance (emphasis on can), but isn't definitive of anything. Popularity could also mean that those champions are more fun to play. Seems people keep playing Lee even with a sub 50% win rate.

BluePolarizerDec 19, 20151 votes

Vayne is the most popular champ in the game and with a >52% win rate. That means Vayne is almost an autowin as long as your team is mediocre while you have to be way better than your elo to climb with any other champ.

ModKnightsKemplarDec 19, 20154 votes

Um, wut?

52% is not auto-win, dude. That's 52/100 games. C'mon. Please math, at least a little.

Malix FarwinDec 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Vayne is the most popular champ in the game and with a >52% win rate. That means Vayne is almost an autowin as long as your team is mediocre while you have to be way better than your elo to climb with any other champ.

52% is almost autowin? thats new to me.

l Helios lDec 19, 20154 votes

"Lee is pretty much cancer across all elo in terms of popularity"

On what basis mate? Can you explain?

Also, as an aside: popularity =/= strong or weak

Specter027Dec 19, 20151 votes

Yea, if anything Lee needs buffs judging by his winning %.

Faded LichDec 19, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Yea, if anything Lee needs buffs judging by his winning %.

Lee needs a rework so he is able to balanced before that happens.

l Helios lDec 19, 20151 votes

"...to *be balanced..."

He doesn't need a rework. His kit is unique. What is fundamentally wrong with his kit that requires a rework?

Faded LichDec 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

"...to *be balanced..."

He doesn't need a rework. His kit is unique. What is fundamentally wrong with his kit that requires a rework?

The fact it is extremely bloated, does way too much and has inherinetly very, very few weaknesses which leads to what is currently the case of him being either way too strong or down right ignorable with no room for a middle ground.

l Helios lDec 20, 20151 votes

"...downright ignorable..."

By who? Your problem is something that is directed towards a specific group of people, not the community as a whole. Lee is frequently played at higher Elo's because his kit gives him a lot of tools to work with, and the specific players are capable of using it appropriately. At the same time, players at higher Elo's know exactly how to deal with him. This is not always the case at lower Elo's.

"...extremely bloated, does way too much..."

Compared to who? This comparing two champions to each other, or comparing Lee to some concept that champions ought to fight X mold. That's not the purpose of the game; it's not to create champions who can all do the same things, but rather to create a unique diversity among the champions that allows intricate plays to be made on a game-to-game basis. Compared to Trundle yes, Lee does a lot more; however, the same principle doesn't extend to someone like a LeBlanc or a Zed who can outplay as well. Is outplay unhealthy for the game? Personally, I don't think it is.

"...very, very few weaknesses..."

Ask any player what Lee's weaknesses are, and I'm positive you will have a slew of responses.

Lee has good early game damage that can be matched by other early game junglers like Elise
Lee has a lot of skill attached to his kit that requires at least some knowledge of how the kit works to be successful or even average.
Lee falls off late game into being nothing more than a peel machine and an dive fighter.
Poor management of your energy and passive = lose And that's just the few off the top of my head.

So no, I don't think his kit is bloated or unfair in any manner. I think players just need to figure out how to deal with him and learn what they need to do to deal with him.

Pika310Dec 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Faded Lich,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YhLJt3Y8,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-12-19T23:09:32.727+0000)

Lee needs a rework so he is able to balanced before that happens.

Sad thing is, Rito already had a complete Lee sWin rework ready to roll out. Unfortunately, there was "community outcry" and so the entire thing was scrapped. One of the very few times Rito has actually "listened" to the players, it was for a champ they themselves blatantly show bias towards. Meanwhile, countless other occasions of community outrage fell completely on deaf ears and still do to this day:

Ahri Veigar Sona Soraka Sion Quinn Karma Cassiopeia Sona and et cetera...

Faded LichDec 20, 20151 votes

#OnlyRitomire

JustMyBassCannonDec 20, 20151 votes

Anyone with a fundamental understanding of the game's balance can tell you that the Lee Sin rework they planned, then scrapped, was not going to fix the problems with Lee Sin.

Why? Well, the "rework" was simply number tweaking. The one non-number tweak (that they should have kept anyway) was making his E physical damage, and then all the rest were playing around with the base and scaling damage on his abilities. But the problem with Lee Sin's kit is not on the pure, numerical side. That rework only would have made his early game slightly weaker and made his late-game noticeably stronger.

Much like the Riven rework that got scrapped, it made the champ weaker in one aspect and stronger in pretty much every other way, which is not going to fix them.

Pika310Dec 20, 20153 votes

Did the balance/design team just get paid for nothing?

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: For a very long time now, the "balance" team has displayed clear bias literally every patch they make. They intentionally nerf champs they don't like, keeping them weak and unplayable. Even if they are already weak and underperforming, they still receive nerfs solely to sate the "balance" employees' hatred towards them. Relying on excuses, lies and propaganda, oft slinging hotwords like "invisible power" "counterplay" and "tactical decision-making" just to name a few examples.

On the other end of the spectrum we have the #LC$BIGPLAY$ champs, Rito's favorite children that are mandatory to always be top picks. Names like Lee Sin and Thresh that are completely immune to MEANINGFUL nerfs. The moment they aren't in the top 3 picks, they immediately get unjustified buffs to push them back into the limelight.

Then, whenever a major event draws close, like World's for example, they prematurely release a massive change that completely shakes the foundation of the game without an appropriate amount of time to settle things down. They do this intentionally for their own amusement as it leads to things like the 100% pick/ban 100% winrate Alistar of Season 4 which leads to unfavorable luck factors forcing mandatory bans onto red team and unfair advantages to blue side, essentially skewing matchups into 1-sided bouts.

ModKnightsKemplarDec 19, 20152 votes

The deal with those two reworks (morde and skarn, specifically) is that they were highly experimental. The fact is that Vayne, Lee, and other popular champs have satisfying champion fantasies that they fulfill, a good niche in the game, and an easily-balanced kit to make sure they always stay relevant. Skarn and Morde don't have that, so the reworks needed to be pretty risky. When you do something risky, it doesn't always pay off. This didn't, it seems. They know that. And they'll work on it.