Remember the mage itemisation update that was supposed to bring diversity to builds?

PaffWasTaken·Apr 24, 2019·94 votes·20,672 views

Can we just aknowledge once again that it completely failed in its objective and that its time again to actually update/expand the mage itemisation? Almost every mages build the same items and use the same runes to the point its actually (once again) very unsatisfying to build anything AP because of how repetitive things get. In fact, almost every "builds" who differ from usual itemisation amongst mages represent a cheesy strategy that will 100% get nerfed shortly after its popularisation just like building tank top.

Mages are either good or extremely bad, and this just encourages a bad image to be made of them, where 2 or 3 of them will be amongst the top 10 champions of a patch, while 30 others rot in hell, and almost every patch those few lucky champions just switch place with other ones to create an ever lasting circle where things like sit a the top while a majority of other mages like just swim in an eternal sea of nothingness. This is strongly encouraged by the forced item paths that almost everyone is forced to follow and if they don't, they lack the strength that others have.

We need another AP itemisation update, but this time it should actually have an expansion of build paths and finished items instead of just being an excuse to nerf mana to hell like last time.

129 Comments

KirbyCakeApr 24, 201931 votes

Mages currently rely too much on rushing flat pen and spiking before they become completely irrelevant late game when everybody on the enemy team has built an MR item. (unless you're a bruiser mage like vlad/ryze) Not only to they need rework mage items but also rescale how MR works in general because MR is still invalidating magic damage super hard late game compared to armor.

OtterlyLostApr 24, 20195 votes

Isn't the point of mages to be good early to midgame but eventually get out scaled? .-. If they all scale fantastically into the late game as well because MR is gutted, then what is the point in playing any other class? They already have some of the best defensive itemization in the game; Zhonya's(which is something I would kill to have on an ADC), Banshee's, tons of AP+health items. And this is all on top of how many of them have huge range or good utility/cc.

I feel like MR and mage powerspikes are exactly where they should be. If you feel they need more itemization fine but I'd rather their power spikes remain as they are. Like I said, why pick any other carry class if mages get to have self peel through both their itemization and kits, massive range, and tons of utility as well as ridiculous late game scaling and weaker MR itemization.

MiracleMorg94Apr 24, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Isn't the point of mages to be good early to midgame but eventually get out scaled?

Uh that's the point of assassins, not mages. Assassins do best early to mid, mages are late game champions. And the MR argument can be invalidated by item 3135 .

Serika ZeroApr 25, 20193 votes

If love to see you as a syndra kill the enemy bruiser or tank unless you are hyper feed :)

Mages get more pen because they use abilities. and unlike auto attacks, those have cool downs are are usually skill shots

Critmaster GarenApr 25, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YdfMYwEa,comment-id=0001000000010001,timestamp=2019-04-25T16:33:05.057+0000)

If love to see you as a syndra kill the enemy bruiser or tank unless you are hyper feed :)

Mages get more pen because they use abilities. and unlike auto attacks, those have cool downs are are usually skill shots

^ mages like syndra arent intended to be able to carry like that.

they always have utility to fall back to. there needs to be a tradeoff between a dedicated carry kit and a damage + utility kit.

for most mages that means, they can kill squishy targets but dont deal enough damage to kill tanks and fighters mid to lategame.

Serika ZeroApr 25, 20193 votes

I'm not asking you to kill the tank. I'm just saying the fighter, that has like 1 mr item, 1 armor item, 1 attack item, and 2 health items. If the game even got that long.

Like, most people on boards complain about "omg there's to much damage". Well, All the fighter has is basically 1 anti your damage type item, and 2-3 hp items (if i include the hp from the armor item). And suddenly, THERE'S NOT ENOUGH DAMAGE.

And its not just syndra: Ahri Annie Fiddlesticks Karma Karthus Lissandra Lux Malzahar Morgana Neeko Orianna Swain Syndra Taliyah TwistedFate Veigar Xerath Ziggs Zilean Zoe all of these are mages, and all of them would have difficulty killing that target.

And also, don't go "omg syndra has utility, that's why". Cassiopeia also a mage. AoE stun (check, same as syndra), AoE slow (check, same as syndra), Grounded effect (even more CC than syndra). But lets not just take mages, how about other class. Trundle - AoE slow (check, same as syndra), knock up (something syndra doesn't have), full armor and mr shread (again, something syndra doesn't have). Jinx - AoE root (something syndra doesn't have), slow (single target), and loads of damage. While her root and slow can be dodged, her damage is point and click ;)

You guys hate and detest mages. But mages are one of the most nerfed class in the game, if not the most nerfed one. From a class that could reach onward of 1000 ap per game, now the general amount of ap per game is like 400-600. BUT BUT BUT MAGES GOT CDR!!!! item 3071 3000g - 20% cdr item 3508 3200g - 20% cdr (there was an entire season while this shit gave 30% cdr coz why the fuck not) item 3025 2700g - 20% cdr item 3285 3200 - 20% cdr

funny enough, tanks are the ones sort of lacking cdr

TomiMan7Apr 25, 20192 votes

From a class that could reach onward of 1000 ap per game, now the general amount of ap per game is like 400-600.

This is a truth ppl seem to forget...

Critmaster GarenApr 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

This is a truth ppl seem to forget...

so lets just ignore then that the class also went from 2000 health pools by the end of the game to 3000 because they added health to multiple of their items?

that was intended to be a tradeoff. less damage for more reaction time to assassins.

and even before the mage rework, mages didnt reach a 1000 ap unless you went with a meme build like item 3003 stacking.

i know this, because i spammed nothing but lux in season 2.

it used to be between 600 and 800 ap at full build.

TomiMan7Apr 25, 20192 votes

you are not giving up are you?

so lets just ignore then that the class also went from 2000 health pools by the end of the game to 3000 because they added health to multiple of their items?

Witch items exactly? Only morellos got 300hp, and rylias was nerfed sooo they got a net 200hp IF they build these items. So once again your point is just stupid but i already got used to that.

and even before the mage rework, mages didnt reach a 1000 ap unless you went with a meme build like

It was much much much more common to reach a 1k AP that it is now. Now you need item 3089 item 3041 item 3003 with max stacks and maybe an infernal to even have a chance to get 1k or play veigar.

Morellos lost 30AP Rylias lost 10AP(after getting buffed 2 times from 75) Liandries lost 5AP Ludens lost 10AP Archangels lost 30AP before stacks, lost 2%conversion before stacks With stacks you gain back 12AP Zhonyas lost 25AP Void lost 10AP RoA lost 20AP All that since 6.9. AP items lost a total of 128AP. Overall a mages core build lost about 75AP. and this is just a quick search

NyarlathοtepApr 24, 20192 votes

They already have some of the best defensive itemization in the game; Zhonya's(which is something I would kill to have on an ADC), Banshee's, tons of AP+health items.

And adcs have access to g.a. (an item that revives you and restores you mana) and qss (which also has a 50% speed boost for 1 sec). Adcs have lifesteal instead of hp. Simple as that.

GripaAviaraApr 24, 201922 votes

I would contradict you here. Mages are very strong in TF. And TF are arguably the most important. Granted, in soloQ this aspect is something hard to achieve with 5 random strangers.

A champion like Lux, who maybe can't 1v1 a champion, can be incredibly powerful in a TF and obliterate an ADC footing

KirbyCakeApr 24, 201916 votes

{quoted}

I would contradict you here. Mages are very strong in TF. And TF are arguably the most important. Granted, in soloQ this aspect is something hard to achieve with 5 random strangers.

A champion like Lux, who maybe can't 1v1 a champion, can be incredibly powerful in a TF and obliterate an ADC footing

Magic damage is not reliable source of damage at all with all the mobility creep and reliance of skill shots to do damage and how hard MR shuts down a fed AP. Mid lane picks in pro play has primarily revolved around utility rather than an actual source of damage, otherwise they pick an ad bruiser mid. Why do you think FAKER plays so many support champions mid in pro rather than pure carry champions?

In solo queue people tend to aram and refuse to build MR which makes mages so much more viable in solo queue, but overall the design of relying on your opponent to be incompetent is incredibly toxic. Many ad champions like yasuo, vayne, riven cannot be outplayed at all and solely depends on them being horrible. I will admit that ad champions are much harder to master, but they're so overloaded and most people are nowhere near mastering them which makes them seem balanced when in reality they are incredibly overpowered when played properly. Mages are completely useless for carrying against competent opponents and are relegated to supports that just do a bit more damage.

kuzzy47Apr 24, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I would contradict you here. Mages are very strong in TF. And TF are arguably the most important. Granted, in soloQ this aspect is something hard to achieve with 5 random strangers.

A champion like Lux, who maybe can't 1v1 a champion, can be incredibly powerful in a TF and obliterate an ADC footing

Thats why they are good for solo q.

Whisper87Apr 24, 20199 votes

Mages currently rush flat pen because the meta is heavily reliant on spiking in the mid game. It's not necessarily that they are afraid of not scaling. Standard control mages like Ori, Anivia, Viktor, Azir can still kick out insane dps if you let them get to like 4 items. The issue is more that they are afraid they won't have a chance to scale.

In order to scale a mage wants a lost chapter item, void staff, Rabaddons, and then one AP utility item like Morello/Zhonya/Banshee/etc. There just isn't a lot of incentive to picking these champs if several others are stronger early on.

One of the reasons why mages used to be stronger in general was the void staff nerf. A couple seasons ago mages could legit go void staff second item because it was a very linear, smooth power curve going from mid to late game. Once you make it more about the pen and less about the AP, you don't really want it mid game, but then by the time you do want it you feel like you're behind the power curve. The other reason why folks are rushing flat pen over scaling AP items is that tanks have not been super meta/popular recently. So these flat pen items are pretty strong at murdering squishies and will help mitigate the slower power curve that mages have.

So in my mind the irrelevance of most mages has more to do with game design. Team fighting needs to be important in order for mages to be high value. In a game where skirmishing and side lane pressure are king, and where most of the time one team has a significant lead by the time team fight phase rolls around...mages are always gonna be a niche pick in that environment.

LovelleApr 24, 201913 votes

{quoted}

Mages currently rely too much on rushing flat pen and spiking before they become completely irrelevant late game when everybody on the enemy team has built an MR item. (unless you're a bruiser mage like vlad/ryze) Not only to they need rework mage items but also rescale how MR works in general because MR is still invalidating magic damage super hard late game compared to armor.

Statistically, the majority of mages do well all game. They're not like low utility melees that fall off after mid game. Also, MR is nowhere near good enough right now to mitigate Void Staff's penetration. Nobody is mitigating damage purely from resistances right now, they don't scale well enough.

RagnaveilApr 24, 20195 votes

Bingo.

MiracleMorg94Apr 24, 20195 votes

Mages don't get irrelevant late game. Late game is where they thrive compared to assassins. And even if enemy builds mr, they get Void staff to counter that.

SucctionApr 24, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Mages currently rely too much on rushing flat pen and spiking before they become completely irrelevant late game when everybody on the enemy team has built an MR item. (unless you're a bruiser mage like vlad/ryze) Not only to they need rework mage items but also rescale how MR works in general because MR is still invalidating magic damage super hard late game compared to armor.

I think it's because small amounts of magic resist are easy to get, and after the first 40% being removed by Void, there's no way to penetrate it (after 38 base mr). Lethality allows...how much pen? 59, I think? Add that to the 35% from ldr after the 24% from black cleaver, and ad assassins (not that they're doing well either) can do true damage to champions well over 100 armor.

Crescent DuskApr 24, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Mages currently rely too much on rushing flat pen and spiking before they become completely irrelevant late game when everybody on the enemy team has built an MR item. (unless you're a bruiser mage like vlad/ryze) Not only to they need rework mage items but also rescale how MR works in general because MR is still invalidating magic damage super hard late game compared to armor.

That's more a reason to buff armor more than buff MR. Only ADC's should be a threat to tanks lategame, and in exchange support shields and lifesteal on ADC's needs to be nerfed. ADC's have been overbuffed and it really isn't fun how snowbally the game is thanks to how strong the bot lane duo is with lifesteal and support shields as they are given their damage (which they SHOULD have).

There's also the issue that the only mages being played are either super long range artillery mages like Syndra/Orianna/Velkoz or assassin mages like Zoe/Ahri/LB.... Shorter ranged immobile mages like Annie/Malzahar/Aurelion Sol and even Swain due to his ult reliance for survival get creamed up the ass because they are so squishy for being so short ranged and immobile yet don't have burst anywhere close to what assassins have, so what's the point of playing a shorter range mage when a Zoe/LB/Ahri with way more mobility and survival/poke is outbursting the short range mages or the artillery mages get to rule sieges while shorter range mages are flash dependent garbage and get immediately blown up?

This game is definitely not rewarding risk vs. reward in regards to mobility and range at all. Same goes on in jg and top lane, where hypermobile champs somehow are as survivable as their immobile counterparts and have the same or more damage to boot.

WAZZZUP500Apr 25, 20191 votes

item 3135 item 3165 item 3020

Edit: while i know that there are a couple more armor negating items ( item 3071 item 3035 item 3134 ), armor items are generally better than mr items. there's more of them, and they tend to have more generally useful passives.

KirbyCakeApr 25, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Edit: while i know that there are a couple more armor negating items ( ), armor items are generally better than mr items. there's more of them, and they tend to have more generally useful passives.

Still doesn't change the fact that due to how armor and mr scales, mr is twice as effective as armor. Any bruiser with just 1 mr item can easily face tank your entire rotation while 1 shotting you even if you have zhonyas. Mages straight up lose 1 v 1 to any other class in the game with the same amount of gold, including pure supports. Wave clear is not nearly as good as it used to be as everybody else has good enough wave clear as well, and turrets can still be taken without minions late game anyways. In team fights they are only slightly above average compared to bruisers and assassins, but supports are much stronger at team fighting than a mage which begs the question of why not play a support instead.

If it wasn't for the horrendous laning phase of supports, people would straight up play pure supports mid over a mage any day. Pro mid picks are based on supporting the team rather than magic carry damage. Literally the only thing mages have over other classes is wave clear.

The game honestly feels like overwatch where bruisers and supports are overpowered to the point where the best comp is to ONLY pick bruisers and supports. Sona + taric bot is already showing it is a very strong comp. Bruisers have enough damage to 1 shot anybody else that's not a bruiser/tank which is obviously r%%%%%%%%%%

WAZZZUP500Apr 26, 20191 votes

Dude if you wanna play mages for damage and oneshotting people, play somebody like ziggs, xerath, or velkoz. Some mages are designed to be more utility based, some are more damage based. If you only want damage and kill potential, then play the mages that emphasize that. Play Ahri. Play ekko. Play syndra. Play xerath. Don't play champs like orianna or malzahar. (as a bonus, if you play someone like xerath/ziggs, you can sit so far back that bruisers can't get in range without taking a lot of damage)

KirbyCakeApr 26, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Dude if you wanna play mages for damage and oneshotting people, play somebody like ziggs, xerath, or velkoz. Some mages are designed to be more utility based, some are more damage based. If you only want damage and kill potential, then play the mages that emphasize that. Play Ahri. Play ekko. Play syndra. Play xerath. Don't play champs like orianna or malzahar. (as a bonus, if you play someone like xerath/ziggs, you can sit so far back that bruisers can't get in range without taking a lot of damage)

Mages are the only class in the game that will straight up lose 1 v 1 even with a substantial gold lead. A bruiser with 1 MR item and being down 5k gold will still destroy a mage in a 1 v 1.

Have you seen a mage try to kill a tank even with void staff? It is completely laughable that a full rotation from a mage does 25% of a tank's health while the tank can almost 1 shot the mage that built full damage. Any bruiser will 1 shot the mage while taking very little damage himself.

WAZZZUP500Apr 26, 20191 votes

Yeah because mages really have to work around positioning. That's their biggest weakness (assuming yu're talking about artillery mages). I play xerath quite a bit, I know about him and other long range, squishy mages. You have to play from far back; if they get on you, you're dead. However, if i am far ahead on xerath, the enemy can't do anything cause I can chunk them for 3/4 of their hp with 1 q.

Tanks don't take as much dmg, but you can still play from out of their range, plus they generally don't have the insane mobility many fighters, bruisers, and assassins have. Maybe the reason mages can lose 1v1s is because they can be easily caught out, and are very squishy. It's like a kogmaw, ashe, or varus. If you get on top of them, you can most likely kill them.

The "bruiser with 1 MR item" can beat a mage if the get on top of them, cc them, and don't get hit with any cc. At that point, the only reason for the mage's death is their own bad positioning/aim.

KirbyCakeApr 26, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yeah because mages really have to work around positioning. That's their biggest weakness (assuming yu're talking about artillery mages). I play xerath quite a bit, I know about him and other long range, squishy mages. You have to play from far back; if they get on you, you're dead. However, if i am far ahead on xerath, the enemy can't do anything cause I can chunk them for 3/4 of their hp with 1 q.

Tanks don't take as much dmg, but you can still play from out of their range, plus they generally don't have the insane mobility many fighters, bruisers, and assassins have. Maybe the reason mages can lose 1v1s is because they can be easily caught out, and are very squishy. It's like a kogmaw, ashe, or varus. If you get on top of them, you can most likely kill them.

The "bruiser with 1 MR item" can beat a mage if the get on top of them, cc them, and don't get hit with any cc. At that point, the only reason for the mage's death is their own bad positioning/aim.

So you're basically saying they should go afk in the fountain because there's nowhere they can position to avoid getting ran down by bruisers who inherently have higher base MS and spammable dashes. You are relying on your team to stop them like an ADC except you don't have anywhere near the damage potential of an ADC.

Being ahead on xerath is actually pretty pointless if they build merc treads which will cut your damage output if they don't already have enough ms to easily dodge your skill shots. A fed xerath is one of the least threatening things in the game and easy to shut down while a farmed bruiser would be a much greater threat.

Are you silver or something?

WAZZZUP500Apr 29, 20191 votes

Imagine having no intelligent comeback to a post on the internet, so you argue a strawman instead.

Go watch some good xerath players, or other mage players, then come back and tell me that they're completely useless and have no damage potential. Also, why does everyone always complain about resistances reducing damage? It's literally what they're supposed to do + damage outscales defense. Plz stop complaining that resistances do what they're supposed to do.

KirbyCakeApr 29, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Imagine having no intelligent comeback to a post on the internet, so you argue a strawman instead.

Go watch some good xerath players, or other mage players, then come back and tell me that they're completely useless and have no damage potential. Also, why does everyone always complain about resistances reducing damage? It's literally what they're supposed to do + damage outscales defense. Plz stop complaining that resistances do what they're supposed to do.

No, MR disproportionately reduces damage compared to armor. Right now MR is twice as effective as armor.

Having triple AP is considering an inting team comp while a full AD team comp is fine BECAUSE it is easy to shut down magic damage.

Look at the challenger ladder, barely any mage players and the top players are all jungle mains lol.

WAZZZUP500Apr 29, 20191 votes

But it's way easier to get armor in your build without sacrificing other stats you might want. Also, ap is an easier stat to get than ad. Mages will have more ap than other champs will have in ad. Enemies will have more armor than magic resist in their kits. Also, most mages build magic pen, while ad champs dont generally build lethality or %pen unless they are assassins or adcs respectively.

KirbyCakeApr 29, 20191 votes

{quoted}

But it's way easier to get armor in your build without sacrificing other stats you might want. Also, ap is an easier stat to get than ad. Mages will have more ap than other champs will have in ad. Enemies will have more armor than magic resist in their kits. Also, most mages build magic pen, while ad champs dont generally build lethality or %pen unless they are assassins or adcs respectively.

Mages have less damage output. It doesn't matter if armor is easier to get when it blocks less damage than MR. Armor falls off late game while MR does not.

Flat magic pen is actually very ineffective against people who build MR. Void staff is also extremely underpowered in this game and only offers 40% penetration when the value needs to be around 60% like in dawngate, where mages are MUCH stronger in that game compared to this one, and they are STILL trash (they get 1 to 1 scaling on auto attacks while building "AP"). If you build sorc + morello + void staff, they just need 1 mr item, spirit visage/maw + take 18 MR in runes to negate your pen. Your build has 0 utility and the only other stat is AP while they can use other item slots for whatever they want, including merc treads if they want to dump all over you.

Please tell me how mages aren't underpowered at all when pro players prioritize supports mid over mages mid, and most challengers play ad champions only.

WAZZZUP500Apr 29, 20191 votes

Ok so your whole thing about armor falling off is a lie. Armor itself does not fall off. Armor and MR calculations are exactly the smae, and under no circumstances do those calculations change.

Here's the formula for how much damage is dealt by a magic attack: 100/100+target's MR

Here's the formula for how much damage is dealt by a physical attack: 100/100+target's Armor

Hmmm, i wonder how many useful armor+damage items there are in the game... well, there's GA, Zhonya's, and iceborn, all three of which are more generally useful and built more often than ap+damage items (banshee's, scimitar, athene's and maw). Normally, the only mr any squishy will build will be in their boots, and even then, they may opt for a more offensive option such as sorcs or tabi.

Even on tanks, there's less mr. The only fully mr defensive items are visage, adaptive, and abyssal. Compared to the nearly 10(?) armor items available.

KirbyCakeApr 29, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Ok so your whole thing about armor falling off is a lie. Armor itself does not fall off. Armor and MR calculations are exactly the smae, and under no circumstances do those calculations change.

Here's the formula for how much damage is dealt by a magic attack: 100/100+target's MR

Here's the formula for how much damage is dealt by a physical attack: 100/100+target's Armor

Hmmm, i wonder how many useful armor+damage items there are in the game... well, there's GA, Zhonya's, and iceborn, all three of which are more generally useful and built more often than ap+damage items (banshee's, scimitar, athene's and maw). Normally, the only mr any squishy will build will be in their boots, and even then, they may opt for a more offensive option such as sorcs or tabi.

Even on tanks, there's less mr. The only fully mr defensive items are visage, adaptive, and abyssal. Compared to the nearly 10(?) armor items available.

Armor falls off because it has flat scaling. Compare going from 30 MR to 90 and 90 armor to 150 and MR reduces almost twice as much as armor.

Ad champion damage far outscales armor to the point where they don't need any pen to delete tanks anyways.

Once again, I'm not in the mood for arguing with a silver player when pro teams clearly don't prioritize mages at all and prefer supports mid and pick an AD bruiser mid if they want a carry mid. The challenger ladder shows a disproportionate amount of ad champion mains compared to ap when looking at the roster. Picking more than 1 magic damage carry in this season is literally considered inting.

Or do you think SKT is just crazy to put faker on support mid laners than carries?

The EcdysiastApr 24, 201914 votes

There is diversity in the builds though. You've kinda misunderstood what "diversity" means. It doesn't mean one champion will be able to build any item. It means champions in the same class build different items.

And that's what we have. Ahri : item 3030 with Glacial Augment, because it works really well for landing skillshots. Cassiopeia : item 3003 because she's very mana-hungry and spams spells. AurelionSol : item 3027 because he needs the health And similar champions to them build those items as well.

A lot of mages build Luden's because their CC is easier to land and they don't spam a spell. So adding onto their burst is more efficient.

That's not because of the item though, it's because the champions who build it are very similar.

Framing it as a problem is disingenuous. The only difference between this and the diversity of ADC first items is the fact there are a LOT more mages, so there's a higher flat number of mages that are similar to each other.

PaffWasTakenApr 24, 20197 votes

What I've been pointing out isn't really the difference between champions themselves, but difference between what they build each game. For most other champions, depending on the game, the opponent and the situation, they will most likely build very different builds while keeping some core items each game. For mages, it's not really some core items with situational items, it's just a core BUILD.

Build mana item > Rush penetration and raw damage. Thats it, every. single. game.

A generic mage will just go rush item 3285 then go item 3089 item 3135 item 3165 item 3020 and then choose between item 3151 for aggressive or item 3157 for defensive. Of course, this pathway will change between mages, but the biggest change is mainly the first mana item who will change depending on a mage needs or strengths. Unlike AD itemisation, no sustain options, no utility, no situational penetration, the meta is straigth mana > pen/dmg, thats it. Even the item who differs the most from the other items ( item 3907 ) is barely built at all because it doesn't fit in the pre-seen build path imposed to mages.

The EcdysiastApr 24, 20193 votes

Exactly. The definition of diversity you're using isn't in line with the reality.

Go ahead, list every mage who always builds exactly that. Then we can have a discussion, once you've shown that it's a number that could be considered too large. And I don't mean ones you think build that. I expect you to at least use op.gg or the like for proof.

PaffWasTakenApr 24, 20198 votes

Go ahead, list every mage who always builds exactly that. Then we can have a discussion, once you've shown that it's a number that could be considered too large. And I don't mean ones you think build that. I expect you to at least use op.gg or the like for proof.

Every single one of those images is the recommended build for a different midlane mage on U.gg. I don't know about you, but this seems very very similar in almost every way, to the point I can't tell which mage is which since, well, there's barely any build diversity even if there is an huge diversity of mages. But since my "definition of diversity" isn't "in line with the reality", I guess I'm just someone who's hallucinating and that YOU can recognise every single one of those different mages?

AhrisApr 24, 20192 votes

Nobody wants to play with GA, but it is her ONLY viable build. Sad.

2Charmnot2CharmApr 25, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Nobody wants to play with GA, but it is her ONLY viable build. Sad.

You can play GLP Ahri WITHOUT Glacial Aug by the way.

AhrisApr 25, 20191 votes

Then her cc will be too weak to be effective to make GA Ahri work.

2Charmnot2CharmApr 25, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Then **her cc will be too weak **

Her charm is literally 1.4 seconds RANK 1, how in the world is that too weak?

It's only weak when someone gets mercs, but it doesn't matter anyways since maxing charm second on Ahri is still a thing, so even if they get mercs they still die.

GLP Ahri without Glacial Aug is perfectly fine.

Btw the slow from GLP is stronger than the freeze ray from Glacial Aug, it just decays overtime instead of constantly refreshing.

Also the active deals more damage than Ludens echo, the only two advantages Ludens has is uptime and 10 more ability power.

The uptime doesn't matter as much since it will be wasted on minions mostly as Ahri, and GLP is up every minion wave after 1 kill with Ingenious hunter so you can force all-ins without blowing flash or ult every 30 seconds.

The extra ap can be fixed by buying item 1052 since you didn't waste 400 extra gold to get Ludens.

NineTailedMysticApr 24, 20193 votes

No, Diversity in builds should mean "oh they have x comp, I should build like this and not cookie cutter".

boricCentaur1Apr 24, 201910 votes

Riot needs to stop giving mages a mana item that gives almost everything. Like the standard build path for mages gives basically every thing a mage needs without losing anything while having all the items be boring too since there all just stats.

Look at adcs they can go into bork for the early game or rush ie or ie with zeal or some times essence reaver. All of those choices while being a much small group of champions since there items don't give every stat they need.

Like there so many cool items that just give not built because of the standard path being too good.

GripaAviaraApr 24, 201910 votes

The problem with mana nerfing is without it mages are useless and you have ADCs and Energy based champs that get too much of an advantage

For example, item 3285 is an item that most mages rush because of mana, cdr and some wave clear. But nerfing any stats on this item will make at least 30% of the mages useless to pick

Then you have item 3146 item 3089 item 3135 item 3907 , very popular items with no mana

TomiMan7Apr 24, 20192 votes

Gun blade is only built by 3 CHAMPION in game akali kata and maybe ezreal, the last item you mentioned i dont even know its name, but only built by vlad. The other two is basically essentials since the ap values on ap items have been heavily nerfed over the last 3 seasons.

WAZZZUP500Apr 26, 20191 votes

Spellbinder???? It's a pick for almost any mage who is going full ap and doesn't need a more appropriate situational. Champs like karthus, xerath, velkoz, and really any mage who'll be casting spells off cooldown should buy this item after getting core.

TomiMan77Apr 26, 20191 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items

Spellbinder has a 0.7% pick rate GLOBALLY. In comparison ohmwrecker has a 0.1% pickrate, compared to a ludens 9.8% What was your point again?

WAZZZUP500Apr 29, 20191 votes

I said it's a pick, i didn't say that everyone built it. It's still a very good item, and really isn't bought as much as it should be. Any ap assassin or mage who can stack it quickly should get it, as it gives 200 ap with a fully stacked use (not to mention move speed, which is normally pretty useful on mages and assassins).

What you're complaining about is equivalent to complaining that almost all crit adcs rush infinity edge, or complaining that almost all junglers rush a jungle item. Luden's is designed to be a first item.

TomiMan77Apr 29, 20191 votes

It's a pick for almost any mage who is going full ap and doesn't need a more appropriate situational.

No, you said this. If this were true, the pickrate would be much higher.

the last item you mentioned i dont even know its name, but only built by vlad.

This on the other hand, represent the truth much better and spellbinders pick rate is backing that up.

What you're complaining about is equivalent to complaining that almost all crit adcs rush infinity edge, or complaining that almost all junglers rush a jungle item. Luden's is designed to be a first item.

infinity edge = rabadons so your point is invalid there. Any jungle item is essential for junglers so idk why is this even brought up.

Luden's is designed to be a first item.

Who is even talking about first items? Did you even read what i responded to? Guess i doubth it. Read it again. But since we are already here the only reason why ludens is bought that much is cos item 3003 item 3030 sucks. Ludens passive dmg should be nerfed.

Soooo when you are actually brining up valid points, and responding according whats the topic, come again! [sg-miss-fortune]

WAZZZUP500Apr 29, 20191 votes

The reason I talked about luden's is because you were using it as comparison. The difference between ludens and spellbinder is that luden's is designed as a first item rush on almost all mana using mages.

Spellbinder is a more niche pick that doesn't synergize with all kits, but is very effective on the ones it can work with. You're complaining about niche picks being bought less than core items, which is pretty dumb tbh.

Archangels does not suck depending on the champ, glp is another niche pick that is generally overshadowed by gunblade, but is actually extremely effective on a glacial augment build.

I brought up (completed) jg items and ie because they are other extremely popular first item buys for some other roles, just like luden's. The similarity is that bot and jg buy these items pretty much every game, and then have varying builds afterwards (different crit items for crit ads, wide assortment of items depending on the jg ur playing).

Idk wat you're trying to do, but I'm trying to have a discussion, so please cut the condescending crap.

Dorans PantsApr 25, 20192 votes

The reason the item 3802 -line exists now is that in contrast to other classes mages need to access a lot of different stats at once to function properly and you didn´t have any other options other than going old item 3165 , the only item providing Ap, cdr, and mana at that time. Every other choice was suboptimal unless you played very specific champs.

item 3070 put you too far behind, leaving you with neither ap nor cdr. item 3010 had the same problem item 3174 was now a support item

and building ap components first meant you wouldn´t be able to stay in lane for long.

**This may sound like a reasonable compromise but in reality, being that restricted was just dull and very unsatisfying. **

add to that that the large number of very niche items in the mage item pool like item 3100 item 3151 item 3115 item 3146 item 3048

And it was no surprise that your standard mages only had one buildpath with morello being the go-to starting item.

Riot tried to solve this problem by providing more items which would function like the old morello and a few new items in general and when the new items were broken, we had a bit of diversity. More champs had access to seraph´s, snowball-oriented champs went ludens, and aurelion was the only champs that built GLP because it sucked.

But seraph´s proofed to be too powerful and was promptly nerfed, GLP was never good, and we were left with one starting item unless you were one of the few champs that could afford to start with catalyst or tear again.

And now we go full circle by demanding to separate all the stats mages need into different items, which just doesn´t work the same way it does for adcs because, even though adcs stats synergies with each other, they are still mostly independent, while the lack of mana, for example, can invalidate the amount of ap you bought as a mage.

Between all the stupid decision I would say that the introduction of lost chapter was one of the better ones.