The worst thing you can do to a champ is to break them on account of pro play

Hexs Fortune·Mar 23, 2019·120 votes·19,182 views

Pro play is meant to service the playerbase of league of legends, not serve as a basis to invalidate champs for 99 percent of players.

124 Comments

Hayaishi2Mar 23, 201952 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YcAEWK3I,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-03-23T21:36:16.071+0000)

Pro play is meant to service the playerbase of league of legends, not serve as a basis to invalidate champs for 99 percent of players.

THANK YOU!

Pro play is completely irrelevant to most of the playerbase, balancing around it is ridiculous. Riot should balance around high elo, NOT pro play.

There's nothing that justifies ruining a champion for the average playerbase that uses said champion every day because of pro players who will stop using the champion as soon as they find something better to abuse.

RogueWillMar 24, 20199 votes

It should be balanced around the average player.... let the small pro base go nuts with broken builds and champions. 90% of the player base won't care

LeetriMar 24, 20195 votes

The boards would have an aneurysm if Riot balanced around the average player, since then they'd balance the entire game around Bronze/Silver.

Death by GlamourMar 24, 20192 votes

until those builds make it into high elo and trickle down into silver/gold/plat

YoungcuckMar 24, 201924 votes

Shen Ezreal Galio Gangplank Kalista Nidalee Rakan RekSai Ryze Shen Taliyah Urgot We all agree!

OHminusMar 24, 201914 votes

My poor baby Rakan ... he was literally the only reason I got back to supporting (other than the occasional Sona game).

Then they made his w slow as fuck and nerfed his base stats so he isn't even half a champ in lane anymore.

GlaricionMar 24, 20192 votes

{quoted}

We all agree!

About NIdalee, was she reworked into being jungle only due to pro play or something?

AP artillery, bruiser, utility poker... She used to be decent top and jungle with a way to cheese mid and support, but now she's jungle only and so rare to see...

(though I don't miss having spears popping out of fog and hitting people for 80% of their HP)

LeafyGreenMar 24, 20192 votes

When I started playing in between season 3 and 4, Nid and LeBlanc midlane were MONSTERS. And that was before draft so you were forced to play into them blind and I will still remember when you could delete someone as LB at level 2 with just q + w... shudders…. and then Nid throwing her q out and flash + w'ing further from you so then it 1 shots - .-

GlaricionMar 24, 20192 votes

{quoted}

When I started playing in between season 3 and 4, Nid and LeBlanc midlane were MONSTERS. And that was before draft so you were forced to play into them blind and I will still remember when you could delete someone as LB at level 2 with just q + w... shudders…. and then Nid throwing her q out and flash + w'ing further from you so then it 1 shots - .-

I still cannot lane against LB.

Even though I know she can't insta-burst people like before, the memories keep me chained in the old ways like an elephant to a post.

Zane ZephyrMar 25, 20192 votes

she got nerfed because she had a bunch of AA resets that made her jungle clear speed insane

THE RlVER KlNGMar 24, 20193 votes

where's kench

Aatrox AirlinesMar 24, 20195 votes

{quoted}

We all agree!

Aatrox , Aatrox , Aatrox , Aatrox , Aatrox , Aatrox and Aatrox too...

General Esdeath Mar 24, 201915 votes

If a champ is doing too much raw damage that's one thing

But to say Ryze needs a nerf because pro teams are using his ult too well would be flat out ridiculous

LovelleMar 23, 201914 votes

Agreed.

Trundle My winrate has been abysmal since his nerfs to Q and E. He's basically a shadow of what he used to be in previous seasons. All because of pro play, which I've never been interested in.

It sucks the fun out of the game, at least for me.

Bob the ToastrMar 24, 20191 votes

They buffed his W and passive a bit in recent patches.

LovelleMar 24, 20192 votes

I know, but it doesn't really help him out early game, which is where he's currently struggling. Most of the games I lose with him are because I got snowballed on early, and there's not much Trundle can currently do about it until he gets levels (particularly E) and some health/resistances. The problem with this is that every other champion seems to be able to cut through defensive stats like a hot knife through butter. All the grievous wounds and penetration aren't helping either.

Ravenous HowlsMar 24, 20193 votes

I am a Nasus main and I feel your pain. Trundle used to be my back up pick now sadly he's so handicapped to play I do not feel comfortable picking him into almost any match up other than a tank.

JuiceBoxPMar 24, 201914 votes

It's quite ridiculous really. Pros don't play the game we do. We play solo queue, they play voice chat flex 5v5 with tons of cooperation and training. They play a totally different game and balancing around that is stupid.

JalesomMar 23, 201912 votes

Pro play has a major influence on player behavior, builds, etc. When a champ dominates the arena of pro play, I understand the reasoning to adjusting the champ. Pro play by nature influences our decision making and thus it too must be kept in check to keep the whole community balanced. Pro players are selecting champs based on statistics and what is dominant. Pro Play selections therefore are indications of champs that may be overly powerful.

I'm not saying that I like it, but it is necessary fact of math.

Do you have an idea on how to counter act the influence of Pro players?

NaalithMar 23, 201932 votes

If a champion is really that insane in pro play to the point where they are worthless for 99% of the playerbase, they should just be turned off in pro. I'm serious. Riot banned funnel strategy and a couple other degenerate strategies from pro play over the years even before the strategy had in-game nerfs.

Back in the day it was just Azir and Ryze. Now it seems like every month a champion is getting shit on because of pro play and it honestly makes the game feel shallow.

ModCaptainMårvelousMar 24, 20195 votes

Well that's not a good idea. "Turn off a champion in pro play" also already happens with lower-skill champions who don't bring enough to pro play to warrant being picked.

While a controversial opinion, I think having certain characters busted in pro play but shit in pug play is good. Players who want to use these champions should aspire to them, practice hard and really have to knuckle down. Having everyone be pickable for even the most average player feels rather bad. Riot's super guilty of this as well with things such as the Alistar pulverize change or taking cool mechanics like the Ryze zhonya's warp and removing them "so it's easier for everyone".

NaalithMar 24, 20196 votes

I'm also fine with them being busted as shit in pro play and not being nerfed down because of it. Pro play champions are usually high skill cap so hard to use in lower ranks as is, but when they are "balanced" around pro play they are basically unusable for everyone.

Either they should do my first suggestion and just turn the worst offenders off in pro matches, or they should allow the Shurima shufflers, Q>E>W>Q>E>Q>E>Q>E>Q spammers, teammate eaters, girlfriend shielders, and other characters to break pro play and let regular people also have the chance to learn them. Right now we have the worst system, where champions who aren't even that good but have an interesting mechanic pro play likes on a team comp get absolutely dumpstered to the point where only the most hardcore mains will keep playing them. Any solution which returns pro play nerfed champions to regular people gets a thumbs up from me.

Tomoe GozenMar 24, 20193 votes

There's no such thing as "learning for average player" when pro players expose a dominant champion with a dominant strategy, with a dominant build. Players simply adopt the exact same play style as seen pro players and they're no longer niche or a sleeper pick because it's out in public for hundreds of thousands of players. Even if only a small portion of these viewers replicate the same results with the same champ, they don't even nearly have to be as skilled as pros to be able to reap the higher win rate rewards.

LCS is what sets the trend because the best of the best pit against each other in teams. It doesn't matter if you in particular don't give a shit about LCS and don't watch it, you don't even have to watch it to come across a strategy that was directly taken pro play because you've likely seen it from a player that cloned it, which has seen it from someone else who cloned it, etc.

People like to ignore the fact that LCS dictates trends. Big LoL streamers dictate trends. If League didn't have this online coverage, we'd have to find our own ways by scraping YT videos, stat sites and finding our own way and adopting widely accepted and seen strategies, or by the word of mouth.

KarunamonMar 24, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YcAEWK3I,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-24T11:37:54.979+0000)

People like to ignore the fact that LCS dictates trends.

People also like to ignore the fact that what works in LCS often doesn't work (and in many cases can't work due to lack of a coherent team) in soloq.

Vore Me MommyMar 25, 20191 votes

You're getting downvoted because you're saying champions should require skill and game knowledge to play them well... What a perfect representation of the boards

ModCaptainMårvelousMar 26, 20191 votes

I mean it's not unexpected tbh.

A lot of lower-tier players in Gold-to-Iron like playing champions like Azir or Ryze because they have a cool thematic. I'm basically telling them "You won't play them until you git gud", which can definitely peeve some peeps.

BenLegend443Mar 26, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I mean it's not unexpected tbh.

A lot of lower-tier players in Gold-to-Iron like playing champions like Azir or Ryze because they have a cool thematic. I'm basically telling them "You won't play them until you git gud", which can definitely peeve some peeps.

Hehehe... down here I'm seeing LB in ranked. I play Karthus(who's supposed to get rekt by assassins btw) and proceed to destroy her.

FSRERMar 24, 20192 votes

And Riot should balance around pro play. I mean, Yasuo, Riven and vayne are beasts at rpo play (and everywhere else) but they won't nerf them like they did to azir and ryze

Tin ObliteratesMar 24, 20197 votes

Aatrox item 3070

TeslynMar 24, 20196 votes

Riots concept of nerfing champions to worthless or crippled is the reason i dont play some champions.. being not good at them and it feels painful to learn because i am getting punished for every mistake. its almost as if riot doesnt care about the player base but they are trying so hard to make LCS watchable again..

ITS BORING.. at least 9 out of 10 games i watch i just dont care for.. sure .. every once in a while i will see one that i think actually is interesting but most of the time i dont want to see the champions that the pros are playing now.

haaaaaaalpMar 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Riots concept of nerfing champions to worthless or crippled is the reason i dont play some champions.. being not good at them and it feels painful to learn because i am getting punished for every mistake. its almost as if riot doesnt care about the player base but they are trying so hard to make LCS watchable again..

ITS BORING.. at least 9 out of 10 games i watch i just dont care for.. sure .. every once in a while i will see one that i think actually is interesting but most of the time i dont want to see the champions that the pros are playing now.

Which is specifically why riot needs to make changes based off of the lcs. The games get boring to watch unless riot actually balanced for it and there are too many people who enjoy watching lcs for riot to ignore all of them.

TeslynMar 24, 20192 votes

They have balanced for the LCS.. now its boring... use to watch it more before they started making all these changes.

haaaaaaalpMar 24, 20192 votes

{quoted}

They have balanced for the LCS.. now its boring... use to watch it more before they started making all these changes.

It use to be even more boring to watch. People use to watch it more because it was new but dropped off once they saw the same champions over and over again. Riot needed to nerf those champions for the people who still enjoy watching lcs.

Don't get me wrong, if you don't enjoy lcs now, it is fine you can go do something else. There are too many people who do enjoy watching the lcs and need balance changes directed at lcs for riot to ignore.

iamthegoatofwarMar 24, 20199 votes

Last year LCS likely flopped. Riot had to make a quest to have you watch it to artificially inflate the numbers so no I don't think a bunch of people enjoy watching LCS

3TWarriorMar 24, 20195 votes

almost everything "boring" about the LCS, riot caused by trying to force aggressive plays...and continues to do so at the expense of everyone

i'm paraphrasing someone here, but they basically said, "oh look, the game is decided by 10 minutes in, but now the pro play matches last to 50 minutes because they know how to play defense because any mistake can cause a loss"

Midg3tMar 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Which is specifically why riot needs to make changes based off of the lcs. The games get boring to watch unless riot actually balanced for it and there are too many people who enjoy watching lcs for riot to ignore all of them.

Are videogames meant for playing or for watching?

haaaaaaalpMar 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Are videogames meant for playing or for watching?

Depends on the esports scene. Games are evolving beyond the point where that question has a simple answer.

smol green boiMar 26, 20191 votes

I strongly disagree with this. They are meant to be played. Again. No player base = no esports scene. Look at OWL.

haaaaaaalpMar 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I strongly disagree with this. They are meant to be played. Again. No player base = no esports scene. Look at OWL.

Mobas and fps are very different. Look at dota and the international. Dota has a fraction of league's fan base and yet the fans raised over 100 million dollars for international compendium two years in a row. Mobas have transcended the traditional idea of what games are capable of.

Also, it isn't like any of the pro play changes make the game worse. Riot isn't keeping anyone overpowered for pro play, they are just nerfing a few champions that people would have qq'd about anything. If anything, changes directed at keeping solo queue such as keeping riven and zed overpowered because they are popular hurts the game far more than any changes directed at pro play.

smol green boiMar 25, 20191 votes

But if the game is boring to play for the player base that watches LCS, no one is going to watch.

If your player base diminishes because the game is not fun, viewership also declines. How many people watch LCS that don't play the game? I did zero research but I'm guessing the number is close to zero.

haaaaaaalpMar 26, 20191 votes

{quoted}

But if the game is boring to play for the player base that watches LCS, no one is going to watch.

If your player base diminishes because the game is not fun, viewership also declines. How many people watch LCS that don't play the game? I did zero research but I'm guessing the number is close to zero.

And which of the LCS changes actually made soloqueue less fun to play? Most of them just nerf overpowered champions and have no adverse effect on solo queue. The changes that make the game less fun are stuff like the higher damage lower game length changes that were aimed at the Internet cafe crowd.

smol green boiMar 26, 20191 votes

Galio changes, kalista changes, cho'gath changes. Any change that took a champion that was fun to play solo and nerfed it because its too strong in team coordination.

haaaaaaalpMar 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Galio changes, kalista changes, cho'gath changes. Any change that took a champion that was fun to play solo and nerfed it because its too strong in team coordination.

Who cares if there are a few underpowered champions? If they weren't nerfed, people would qq about them being op in solo queue. Prior to cho's nerf, there were more solo queue players qqing about his 17k true damage than zed even though cho wasnt even that strong in solo queue.

LibidoMar 24, 20196 votes

item 3070 Shen

UvecMar 24, 20195 votes

item 3070 Taliyah

radetariMar 24, 20194 votes

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/028/207/Screen_Shot_2019-01-17_at_4.22.43_PM.jpg man you cannot have 2 tears

D3m37r1Mar 23, 20194 votes

People are saying hots balance is better since they killed the pro league. Wonder what would happen if the same was done here.

MysticShakerMar 24, 20194 votes

They can make 2 seperate mode of the game. One which with e-sport rules, patches and second obe with balabced gameplay. Dota 2 has 2 versions of the game I think. Pubg also (esport mode with slower zones)

SaiannaMar 24, 20194 votes

So simple, so true... And so ignored by Rito

KadexeMar 25, 20193 votes

What's Riot supposed to do then? Just ignore the competitive meta? That stuff trickles down into the soloqueue meta though, because players watch those games and they influence players' views of the champions.