So Eve and Wukong can't clear the jungle without leash

Linna Excel·Nov 20, 2014·29 votes·5,034 views

As annoying as these two junglers are, I'm not sure requiring them to have a leash is a good idea. These two either need to be changed so it's clear you don't want them jungling or buffed SO THEY CAN CLEAR 2 BUFFS WITHOUT DYING.

This is just derpsigning. You all intentionally nerfed Eve to the point she could barely survive the old jungle. Then you made the jungle tougher (not complaining about that). Basic logic states that if you've got a jungler who can barely get through the weaker jungle and then buff the jungle, you need to buff the jungler. Or rework said jungler so it can lane. Eve is a little too weak to even heathily lane ATM because you all didn't want her to gank early. Now she can't jungle without setting half her team back. At least Wu can still go top if he isn't counter-picked.

Please buff or rework Eve before the season starts Riot.

84 Comments

JedenVojakNov 20, 20146 votes

Psh, you think those guys have problems?

You ever try jungle Soraka ? It's a nightmare.

Remlap1223Nov 20, 20144 votes

Shot in the dark, but how many times have people queue dodged or kicked you from teambuilder each time you say you're going jungle Soraka? My guess, all of them.

Linna ExcelNov 20, 20148 votes

It was doable before her nerf and rework but it was contrary to typical jungling. Now that she can't self heal and can't E mobs anymore I wouldn't even consider it.

Duke AnaxNov 21, 20141 votes

You'd be surprised, I tried jungle Soraka before, just to break the meta. I failed miserably.

Now I just got a Trailblazer (to test it for Support Soraka) and everything was smooth saling.

JedenVojakNov 21, 20143 votes

Shot in the dark, but how many times have people queue dodged or kicked you from teambuilder each time you say you're going jungle Soraka? My guess, all of them.

Actually, before the rework, people didn't really mind the jungle Soraka that much.

Probably because jungle soraka is dumb?

Well, it worked all right before the rework. She doesn't gank well, but was pretty good at counter ganking, what with the heals and the silences and all. Now her abilities are all useless, so I don't think it will really work anymore.

Bears Dont CareNov 20, 20145 votes

I have utterly no hope for them to change Evelyn. They gutted her damage and burst so its not like your squishiness is made up for by her large amounts of damage.

OJ191Nov 21, 20141 votes

I have utterly no hope for them to change Evelyn. They gutted her damage and burst so its not like your squishiness is made up for by her large amounts of damage.

something has to give when you can permastealth

now I'm not suggesting that they didn't perhaps go too far, but I think everyone by now who has ever played against eve at any point when she was "balanced" (as in damage wise without taking her stealth into account which riot never seems to do when balancing her only when gutting her) let alone even remotely strong, is sick of it.

Bears Dont CareNov 21, 20141 votes

something has to give when you can permastealth

item 3364 item 2047 item 2043

Use those, she also reveals herself at 550 range which is outside the range of her E.

now I'm not suggesting that they didn't perhaps go too far, but I think everyone by now who has ever played against eve at any point when she was "balanced" (as in damage wise without taking her stealth into account which riot never seems to do when balancing her only when gutting her) let alone even remotely strong, is sick of it.

Considering how they made her stealth notifier bigger...provides free trnkets and multiple ways of detecting stealth she isn't an issue. The issue was her DFG into R execute. I think if ravage was made magical it will help a bit.

OJ191Nov 21, 20142 votes

something has to give when you can permastealth

Use those, she also reveals herself at 550 range which is outside the range of her E.

now I'm not suggesting that they didn't perhaps go too far, but I think everyone by now who has ever played against eve at any point when she was "balanced" (as in damage wise without taking her stealth into account which riot never seems to do when balancing her only when gutting her) let alone even remotely strong, is sick of it.

Considering how they made her stealth notifier bigger...provides free trnkets and multiple ways of detecting stealth she isn't an issue. The issue was her DFG into R execute. I think if ravage was made magical it will help a bit.

wooo yeah! such viable counterplay!

a trinket which has to be used preemptively to be of any use, only lasts 10 seconds, and has a 60 second cooldown. If you managed to spot an eve using red trinket either you got lucky or she went full retard.

an item which doesn't even exist on SR

and a ward which no longer stealths and can't be stockpiled, without the range to be useful because either the laner will kill it, eve will kill it then come back 30s later (or just walk around it), or you placed it such that it won't actually see her coming.

Funny thing is, back when Eve got buried in the Yorick patch the Eve player base warned Riot exactly what would happen if they turned her into a burst Assassin. Riot ignored the Eve player base, turned her into a burst Assassin, and made one of the most obnoxious balance nightmares the game has seen since.

Really, the only thing she needed was swapping her stealth to her Ult active and then tweaking her kit to make up for the loss of early pressure. Making her old passive work against jungle monsters combined with a tweaked Q would have her set for power-farming to level six and then stealth-ganking.

I'm confused, I'm sure I remember it being possible to build a bursty Eve back when she still had a stun so why are you implying she only became problematic recently

Bears Dont CareNov 21, 20142 votes

wooo yeah! such viable counterplay!

Yeah, like...holy shit 5 pink trinkets available to a team? God that's sooo expensive. It's like...less than the cost of a minion wave. Whoever can afford that?

a trinket which has to be used preemptively to be of any use, only lasts 10 seconds, and has a 60 second cooldown. If you managed to spot an eve using red trinket either you got lucky or she went full retard.

Or she was attempting to initiate the fight since she is a better bruiser than an Assassin.

an item which doesn't even exist on SR

Whoops my bad,

and a ward which no longer stealths and can't be stockpiled, without the range to be useful because either the laner will kill it, eve will kill it then come back 30s later (or just walk around it), or you placed it such that it won't actually see her coming.

Well...yeah...its supposed to be a counter but not the perfect counter. You're literally bitching at the fact that a character chas a chance to deal with items that counter their passive. A character whose early game damage is garbage, and has to build AD bruiser to be effective in mid game and late game.

I'm confused, I'm sure I remember it being possible to build a bursty Eve back when she still had a stun.

You could, but it there were issues at the time that resulted in her seeing less play. The issues stemmed from her rework, and every since they've gutted her to the point that her early ganks aren't fearsome. Booo...im gonna get you from stealth! Better not continue walking away from me and my complete lack of CC! booooo BOOOOOO!

RebonackNov 21, 20141 votes

I'm confused, I'm sure I remember it being possible to build a bursty Eve back when she still had a stun so why are you implying she only became problematic recently

Not... really.

OLD Eve had a 1.0 AP Ratio on her E and a pretty decent AP Ratio on her Q, however targeting with her Q was VERY temperamental and it was very much a source of sustained damage when she ran AP. Old Eve was always about sustained damage since whoever originally made her apparently understood that burst out of stealth (Sup new Eve and Knifecat) are absolutely awful to play against.

Mountain WardenNov 20, 20145 votes

I play eve the most in the jungle and I've come to the conclusion that she's good at applying pressure to lanes just by showing up. But her damage is too low to secure kills. And when I do get kills with her, it always feels like I KS them.

Linna ExcelNov 20, 20144 votes

I play eve the most in the jungle and I've come to the conclusion that she's good at applying pressure to lanes just by showing up. But her damage is too low to secure kills. And when I do get kills with her, it always feels like I KS them.

Riot wants Eve to be an assassin. Being an assassin means you need to be able to get kills. I'm not sure what riot is thinking with eve and aside from Iron Stylus talking about her VU (he's been cool) Riot won't talk about her mechanically and what they want to do with her on that front. Eve needs help. Yes she avoids wards and is always going to have that surprise factor in laning, but her kit doesn't really support her making plays early and I'm not sure she scales well enough late to make up for her now complete lack of an early game. She really needs a total rework but in changing the jungle she needs a mechanical buff or rework NOW.

UnedibleNov 21, 20143 votes

Eve needs help, yes. The problem is nobody knows what Eve is. Even Riot doesn't know what Eve is. That's why they have no idea what to do with her.

Linna ExcelNov 21, 20142 votes

No argument there. She should be a roaming assassin (ganker) but with how much armor people are building on her, that just isn't the case. I understand why people are building her tanky, but she's supposed to be a hybrid fighter/assassin.

RebonackNov 21, 20143 votes

No argument there. She should be a roaming assassin (ganker) but with how much armor people are building on her, that just isn't the case. I understand why people are building her tanky, but she's supposed to be a hybrid fighter/assassin.

Lies and slander.

Eve should be a skirmishy Fighter. Move in, attract focus, deal some damage, get out, heal from her Ult passive, stealth, and move back in again.

Assassin Eve is always always going to cause balance issues because getting blow up out of stealth is just terrible to play against.

MeserionNov 20, 20145 votes

jungle used to be harder, only certain high sustain champions could clear like trundle and warwick. this appears to be a step towards that what used to be.

Linna ExcelNov 20, 20146 votes

I don't disagree with this and I'm fine with them going in that direction for the most part. However we've now got a champ Evelynn who can't jungle or lane (and Wu will need help in the jungle if riot wants him to stay there).

This isn't acceptable design. If you want to have a champ in the game, it needs to be able to do at least one thing. Evelynn can't do anything now as she's been overnerfed. I'm looking at some of the highest winrate items on her now and her builds are all over the place. I'm seeing AD, AP, and tank. For some champs like Poppy I'm fine with that; Poppy's got a kit where as long as she finishes 3-4 items, she's fine. But Eve seems like she should be more focused. I don't know if I should buy her AD, magic, or a plate mail bondage outfit.

What metal goes good with blue? Gold? Brass?

Ayame IsakiNov 21, 20141 votes

"I'm not a laner I'm a jungler, and after what you [riot] just changed, I'm not even sure I want to do that anymore!" - Evelynn paraphrasing the Princess Bride.

In all seriousness, I think Riot needs to take a long hard look at Eve and figure out what they want her to be, because right now she isn't really anything. The 4.20 patch notes had a slight buff for her jungle game, which makes me think they do want her in the jungle. I'm hoping this wasn't a fire and forget bandaid but rather an indication that Riot has Evelynn on their radar. Hopefully we see more tweaks to make her jungle game competitive.

I really enjoy her kit and would hate to see her gutted, but maybe that is what is required.

MrBuffingtonNov 21, 20145 votes

They had minor buffs to Eve's armor in the last patch, my guess is that it's on the radar for her at least; hopefully more buffs will come

RebonackNov 21, 20145 votes

Eve is in dire need of another remake. If she's ever going to be decent then that passive needs to go.

Eve's OLD kit returns.
Passive now applies to monster damage.
Q Prioritizes her auto-attack target.
W is now a melee range stun/nuke.
R now has 10 seconds of true stealth on activation in addition to the movespeed and IAS.

With stealth on her Ult this addresses both overbearing early game pressure and her ability to scout the map freely, which were the biggest issues people had with OLD Eve. Yay, now she can actually be balanced in a meaningful way.

logiqueNov 21, 20142 votes

Riot stresses me when it comes to Eve.

Benard De VosNov 21, 20141 votes

This is a pretty solid idea. Her old kit seems like it fits the "fighter" aspect of what Riot wants her to be more than her new one does. Now, without that ultimate, it's pretty tough to stay durable in a teamfight unless you're tanking her. Her old kit felt a lot more like trading blows with the opponent and it if it wasn't for the tricky invisibility it was pretty balanced. I like moving the invisibility to the ult, even if just for six seconds as it provides time to get into position with actual invisibility (not, hey I see you way over there! invisibility) and makes her more like a fighter.

The stun may be a bit much (like it was when she was first around) but I'd take her slow back even.

LankPantsNov 21, 20144 votes

I'd prefer eve to move to mid or top and be out of the jungle

DynamiteGazelleNov 21, 20142 votes

That would entirely invalidate her strengths

LankPantsNov 21, 20141 votes

her strengths are making you play passive in lane 100% of the time, that's not a good strength for a champ to have

Bears Dont CareNov 21, 20143 votes

her strengths are making you play passive in lane 100% of the time, that's not a good strength for a champ to have

You play passive with any jungler, Eve is not exclusive to it.

Malix FarwinNov 21, 20141 votes

her strengths are making you play passive in lane 100% of the time, that's not a good strength for a champ to have

you do not have to play passive if the enemy has an eve jungler currently. She is no threat even if she pops up(which she will not do because she is too busy dieing in the jungle). If she shows up she will just get blown up of do nothing meaningful. The only time u would play passive is if your health was low which u would do anyways however, other junglers would be able to dive you and kill you if you were low, eve cannot.

LankPantsNov 21, 20141 votes

No shit, that's because she's weak at the moment, buff her survivability even a bit and she goes back to season 4 levels of uncertainty and insanity.

Samflash3Nov 21, 20144 votes

Here's what I don't get.

Eve was a mage. Built AP Items like DFG, deathcap, etc
Eve got her shield change from an execute to a percent current.
Even then got her E changed to deal AD damage and is currently built like an AD fighter.
Eve still has her AP ratios and AD but isn't great at either being AD or AP unlike say Jax.

My question is why was Eve changed to an AD fighter?

KealiosNov 20, 20143 votes

Last night, due to the changes in the jungle I had read about while patching, I decided to give Sejuani my first run through the jungle. Wow...only being able to buy 2 pots instead of 4 meant that I was porting back to base way more than I would have liked.

Evelynn was my 3rd game after the patch, and I ran her twice in a row. At level 5, the raptor camp took me to 30% life AFTER drinking one potion. I have 3% lifesteal and 9 points of armor in my Runes...

She eventually got going, but wow. Such change. It really put me behind - but I think that was their intention. Still, it was a bit stressful :P

Long Dong WukongNov 21, 20141 votes

Don't do raptors without smite for your first like 3 clears with just about any champion.

PiligeNov 21, 20143 votes

I think the problem with the new jungle in general is how little health you can come out of it, not just on the first clear, but for the first few. If gold on creeps was upped more it would make more sense, but on Yi with a Botrk I still had problems staying at a decent level of health while power farming. Makes counter ganking almost impossible

Bears Dont CareNov 21, 20143 votes

but you can ward against other jungles, meaning it's not a lane where you have to play passive 100% of the time or die, and pink wards do shit all to stop eve since she doesn't even kill them, just remembers where they are and takes a different route next time.

Other junglers can do the exact same thing Eve does and go around them. You will always play it safe, and while Eve does apply a kind of global pressure, it isn't such an issue that it cannot be handled.

OJ191Nov 21, 20142 votes

but you can ward against other jungles, meaning it's not a lane where you have to play passive 100% of the time or die, and pink wards do shit all to stop eve since she doesn't even kill them, just remembers where they are and takes a different route next time.

Other junglers can do the exact same thing Eve does and go around them. You will always play it safe, and while Eve does apply a kind of global pressure, it isn't such an issue that it cannot be handled.

the difference being, that other junglers can't just ignore green wards, whereas eve FORCES you to buy a pink so as to avoid giving her free map control, except then she can just destroy it or go around it anyway.

Bears Dont CareNov 21, 20141 votes

the difference being, that other junglers can't just ignore green wards, whereas eve FORCES you to buy a pink so as to avoid giving her free map control, except then she can just destroy it or go around it anyway.

Um...yes...yes they can. Jarvan IV, Vi, Lee sin can all maneuver around any green wards you place down. They have the speed, mobility, and CC to even do an in lane gank. You should be buying pink wards period for the vision, it shouldn't take a stealth champ to make you utilize items accordingly.

Remlap1223Nov 20, 20142 votes

Have you tried using decoy? I don't know if they upped the AI of the monsters but before preseason the monsters would always attack the decoy even after you revealed yourself. Take that at level 2 instead of crusing blow when jungling, it works wonders.

Pvt Yong TaiNov 21, 20142 votes

I feel that although they said they were going to add more diversity in the jungle, all they did was make super-sustain junglers viable (though before they could jungle easily regardless) and lowered the power of last season's top tier junglers. Any quirky jungler that had a hard time before is sure as hell not making it out easy in this jungle.

WW, Fiddlesticks, Lee Sin, etc seem to be having a blast.

Anyone who was considered sub-par dies super easily and has to back several times.

Though one important change everyone needs to know is that all camps give the same exp now, and for the purposes of jungling, you might find it easier to do Golems (smite), Birds, Red(smite). Starting Red is pretty "meh" if you're not going to do a level 2 gank. (On blue side you can do Frog (smite), Wolves, Blue(smite)).

Halodjin TyrNov 21, 20142 votes

I mained Evilynn Jungle all year in the last season, this Season I'm afraid I'm quitting the Champion. I loved Evilynn I was a Die hard Shadow Evilynn fan (still waiting for that Rainbow Evilynn Skin Riot) but sadly Even with a Leash on blue or Red, I can't seem to Clear the Opposing Buff (red or blue) withoug having to Back by the time I get to it. I've Tried Phsyical Evilynn Tank Evilynn, Life steal Evilynn, Magic Evilynn, and sadly no matter how I build her My own Jungle kicks my ass.
in my last match the enemy took notice and Riven spent the Whole Game bouncing Between my Turrets in the middle of the Map at high speeds to Find and crush me faster then I could respond . not much I can do about a invading Riven in the Old jungle let alone the New one where even at level 6-13 Red buff can Kick my ass into the Dirt. and with the new changes you don't encourage Smiting Red or Blue, making it easily stolen, but If I don't Smite it I can't Kill it as Evilynn until about level 13-15. and How the hell am I going to Compete with players like WW who can solo Dragon at level 4 when I have to reach around level 8 and have full Team support ?

DynamiteGazelleNov 21, 20142 votes

The words of a wise man over here.

Eve plays best as a skirmisher with sustained damage and chase potential. She can never be balanced as an assassin because it will be unfair. The only way to make her an assassin would be to change her passive, but that would suck because that's what makes her unique

Her kit could use a few minor tweaks (ult minimun dmg plz)but overall her kit fills a unique niche that is thoroughly in its own class and different from all other playstyles.

Halodjin TyrNov 22, 20142 votes

I'd really appreciate a Riot Response on Evilynn please, Yah or Nai.

Linna ExcelNov 22, 20141 votes

I know riot has to have read this by now. My only thoughts to why they haven't responded to this is they don't know what to do with her or wukong's jungle. Still, it'd be nice to know if they think she should jungle at all moving forward.

I'm not trying to be mean to them, I know that they know her kit has been a problem. Now things are different as the jungle (her S4 main role) is a bit too dangerous for her, esp if she isn't getting a hard leash. At some point this season, they are going to have to talk about her so I'm not too impatient... I'm just nudging them for the moment.

ULTRAF0RCENov 20, 20141 votes

From what I have heard they can jungle fine as long as you back

Linna ExcelNov 20, 20144 votes

From what I have heard they can jungle fine as long as you back

People that have to back after their first buff are vulnerable to getting invaded if not invaded outright.

Dancing NinjaNov 21, 20141 votes

Dont buffs still spawn at 1:55?

Linna ExcelNov 21, 20142 votes

Yes. I thought they were going to be delayed, but it's the same time as of now. However I think players won't start with the buff and instead start one of the other mobs which will throw things off.

Halodjin TyrNov 21, 20142 votes

yeah and that makes the counter invade so Easy, if I play Evilynn, the Enemy Jungle should just go Steal the opposite buff I start at, free kill/buff easy.

AbodyHUN666Nov 21, 20141 votes

Try not using your smite on blue and savingit for Gromp ot Krugs, they help weak junglers.

XemeronNov 22, 20141 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUkDv49ERLg

Mountain WardenNov 23, 20141 votes

As much as I like current Eve's potential if she were buffed a bit, I can respect the fact that she's a nightmare to balance from Riot's perspective. With that said, maybe they need to completely redo her and do a Sion style relaunch with a completely different kit to make her easier to tune to the current meta.