Thoughts on the Irelia Rework

DJ Lucio··7 votes·2,417 views

How do you guys think they'll implement her weapon in to more of her abilities?

I'm quite contempt at the current state she's in, toplane midgame bruiser, which is right up my alley with Fiora. I love her kit, sustain, a dash, a stun/slow, and the ultimate to secure a kill at range.

I'm curious how they'll implement her weapon, or what the kit will provide after the rework. I'm hoping she keeps the dash, and some type of slow/stun. The sustain with the healing is nice, but that's just one of the things that make people dislike her, since she can heal. I'm just hoping the changes aren't heavily changing her, hoping they keep that dash at least.

What do you guys think?

I'd hate for her to be changed so much to the point i'd dislike her

57 Comments

HateDaddy7 votes

Sorry but she needs massive changes tbh. Her kit gives her too much stuff. She spikes too hard with levels and one item and her ability to basically give any squishy mid game with Trinity procs + perma stunning isn't healthy.

Before anyone accuses of me of losing to irelia, understand I play champions that dumpster her and I never have issues with her. But her kit is a bunch of stats with little outplay potential. Destroy her boring kit and make her a new champion, maybe then she could be interesting.

Ralanr2 votes

You're probably going to be downvoted but I agree 100%.

DJ Lucio1 votes

He probably will be downvoted. I won't downvote because he's right, but I don't want her kit to be completely gutted. She needs changes to the stun, maybe gut her stun and replace it, spruce up her passive, and possibly rework her W.

They did say they want to see her special weapon be used more, so i'm curious on what abilities we'll have with that.

Ralanr3 votes

Personally I'd imagine more ways to emphasize the psi-blade aspect. Maybe temporary increases in her AA range like with Kayle.

DJ Lucio1 votes

Maybe, but I feel like people would hate that.

Ralanr1 votes

People hate change in general. Not saying my idea is great though. It's probably terrible.

Hinagiku331 votes

Or at least change her boring ult.

It doesn't feel great to use on champions, not getting any kind of ranged poke until 6 forces her to have ramped up numbers or less counter-play (see: Fiora), and mostly feels like it's only good for clearing waves in a siege and healing a little bit off minion waves.

Honestly, Irelia could have used the "spirit sword" mechanic far better than Shen ever could...

Ralanr1 votes

Her alt doesn't make sense to me. A ranged poke ability while the rest of the kit is built around getting in and surviving a fight? Why? Is she not supposed to have a weakness?

kile1471 votes

It also negates one of the prime rules of league in a very hidden way. You should always be safer under towers and near friendly minions, but her kit lets her actually gain health by fighting in your wave.

Ralanr1 votes

Doesn't Zed break that rule?

kile1471 votes

In what way? You aren't in more danger under tower, it's just barely safer (same with Fizz).

Ralanr1 votes

Because he can poke through minions.

kile1472 votes

Yes, but he doesn't heal off of it unless he builds for it. With Irelia her ult heals her for 25% of damage dealt to champs and 10% against minions. That 10% is enough for her to actually gain health off of minion waves while still tanking their aggro. This means that there two abilities in her kit that not only remove the usual punishment of trading in a minion wave, but actually reward her for doing it.

Edit: I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad mechanic, but I feel it's bad design that it's such a hidden part of her kit. Normally when a champion breaks one of the unspoken laws of the game they are built around it so you have plenty of warning.

kile1471 votes

By AA range increase what exactly were you thinking? Literally becoming a ranged champion like Kayle? Getting an extra 50-100 range to outreach other melees? Or like a Poppy thing where it's just a singular ranged strike on a melee kit.

Ralanr1 votes

I was thinking like a short time period where her AA range is extended, but still counts as melee.

kile1471 votes

That could work, it depends on the identity Riot wants her to have. Right now she's the best counter for a ranged top laner and I think that would be a good identity to keep.

DJ Lucio1 votes

She's a bruiser, i'd imagine a squishy wouldn't do well to her at all. Her, having armor and health+the damage from trinity, the squishy would stand no chance, unless they outplay with skill.

I don't think her kit is too boring at all, I love her dash and sustain, the stun/slow is useful in 1v1s or even teambattle situations.

She isn't the healthiest champ though, i'd be fine if she didn't have the stun, but it is one of things that makes her unhealthy as a whole.

Hinagiku333 votes

Riot's been using Irelia as example of what's wrong with their melee design for years now.

She has a bit too much in her kit...but she needs to have a bit of everything in her kit to function. Otherwise she would be absolutely destroyed by anyone taking a ranged champion top. Caitlyn, Vayne, and Ryze top were huge problems around the time Irelia was made and any melee top laner was designed to deal with them somehow.

Now we have the problem of insane "out-play" champions (see: Fizz, Zed, Yasuo, Fiora, Ekko) that are less a "big ball of stats" like Irelia and Renekton and more a "big ball of mechanics" where if the player is bad they will lose horribly and if the player is good their opponent gets all of their plays negated and feels helpless.

TheWarlord1011 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fiora All Night,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YM7GBZ4t,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2016-09-26T16:26:52.810+0000)

Riot's been using Irelia as example of what's wrong with their melee design for years now.

She has a bit too much in her kit...but she needs to have a bit of everything in her kit to function. Otherwise she would be absolutely destroyed by anyone taking a ranged champion top. Caitlyn, Vayne, and Ryze top were huge problems around the time Irelia was made and any melee top laner was designed to deal with them somehow.

Now we have the problem of insane "out-play" champions (see: Fizz, Zed, Yasuo, Fiora, Ekko) that are less a "big ball of stats" like Irelia and Renekton and more a "big ball of mechanics" where if the player is bad they will lose horribly and if the player is good their opponent gets all of their plays negated and feels helpless.

hmm u do have a point but when you look at Aatrox to irelia there a lot of similarites and how would riot balance irealia so she could even survive a fight?Her E and passive are most likely to be changed but what would would keep her alive in a fight?Reworking irelia seems really risky to me as she could end up being a balance issue similar to Aatrox , not having enough power in her kit to survive teamfights or be useful outside her W. Riot will have to be careful with this one...

LankPants8 votes

But her kit is a bunch of stats with little outplay potential.

Far less so than Nasus and Jax.

Destroy her boring kit and make her a new champion, maybe then she could be interesting.

"I don't enjoy it and therefore it should be destroyed".

I hate this argument so much in every form it inevitably rears it's ugly head in. It just shows so little understanding of the simple fact that other people can have different opinions to you.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

Far less so than Nasus and Jax.

"I don't enjoy it and therefore it should be destroyed".

I hate this argument so much in every form it inevitably rears it's ugly head in. It just shows so little understanding of the simple fact that other people can have different opinions to you.

You hate that I express my opinion because it isn't in alignment with yours lol? And in that same breath, you don't even actually make an argument, you just try to point out champions I play as if it's somehow related. You didn't even make a statement as to what makes irelia unique or interesting. What about irelia is unique or interesting? Genetic gap closer, generic on-hit buff, her E is probably her most interesting spell but is also her most buklshit spell because it has no downside and it's upside is retardedly strong. Her ult is powerful early and mid for damage and healing + sheen procs but it's worthless late game.

Nothing about irelia is interesting. And riot has been on record in the past that they've been afraid to give bruisers good items because of how abusive they'd be on irelia and to a less extent, Jax. So basically, bruisers can't have nice things because irelia and Jax exist. But Jax has had his base stats murdered, irelias nerfs haven't been significant ever.

And back to Nasus and Jax. I wasn't gonna respond initially because it's totally unrelated. You don't think irelia isn't a wall of boring and uninteresting stats and this is your response directly onto my statement. So the burden of proof is on you and using unrelated examples for other champions isn't proof. But I'll play ball anyway because you're wrong.

Nasus and Jax have significantly more counterplay and meaningful decisions than irelia does. Jaxs E has so many decision points that quite frankly, this alone has more decision points than irelias entire kit. If you don't pop it right away for the stun, your upside is continued damage reduction from aoe spells and dodge from AAs but you likely get kites out and disengaged from so you have to pop right away usually to get the stun and lose out on the benefit of its potential power. And you had to use your Q to get in range of the enemy so you have no way to follow up past this. Meanwhile, irelias E is good no matter what and it doesn't matter if you don't use it properly because you get a retardedly strong slow, and even if you out trade her you now get punished for it and eat a stupid 2 second stun.

Nasus has less counterplay in duel situations but that's his niche and unlike irelia, he's not even a champion early game (because irelia players try to make up this bullshit statement that she's "weak" early). And Nasus is garbage in teamfights whereas irelia, even late game where she falls off, can still gib carries by jumping on them. Nasus doesn't have this potential and any potential he ever had of doing this has been completely removed.

LankPants1 votes

You hate that I express my opinion because it isn't in alignment with yours lol?

I don't hate you expressing your opinion, I hate the argument. They're two very different things. I wouldn't make an argument that you can't express your opinion because it differs from mine because that's literally the same argument I just said I hate.

The argument being invalid does not make your opinion invalid. I could make the argument that the TPP shouldn't go ahead because it's created by the USA and everything the USA has done historically has ended pretty badly, (discalmer I do not actually believe this) my opinion here is completely valid, giving corporations the ability to sue governments in a court conducted by corporations is a horrible idea on many levels. My original argument however is not at all valid.

Your argument is also the argument that's typically used by religious fundamentalists to justify the removal of liberties, that alone should maybe make you think about the validity of the argument.

Nothing about irelia is interesting.

I'd say that's completely subjective. I as well as many Irelia players would disagree with this at a fundamental level. I find Irelia to be a very fun and interesting champion. There's a lot of mechanical depth you can find in playing and mastering her which people who don't play her never explore. Of course this makes her less interesting, if I have a copy of Macbeth and all I ever do with it is use it as a door stop of course I'm not going to find it interesting. If I sat down and read it maybe I would.

Besides I don't see how this point holds any water at all. You don't find Irelia interesting, that's absolutely fine. I ignore 90% of League's champions, including pretty much every champ you play because I don't find them interesting. I'm not going to argue that they need changes because of only that because quite frankly I'm not that egotistical. I understand that different people have differing opinions.

And riot has been on record in the past that they've been afraid to give bruisers good items because of how abusive they'd be on irelia and to a less extent

What world are you living in exactly? Over the last 3 years Riot has introduced and buffed tons of bruiser items, very few of which Irelia has ever even looked at. Just listing them off, item 3742 item 3022 (then nerfed because of Gnar) item 3155 item 3025 item 3052 item 3156 item 3053 item 3071 item 3077 item 3748 item 3091 and last but not least, item 3078 . Clearly Irelia abuses bruiser items, even the ones she never builds so hard that Riot can never buff them like they did for Trinity Force, an item that Riot can never buff because of Irelia. Your point is utter nonsense, even if Riot has said that they have acted at odds with the statement.

Nasus has less counterplay in duel situations but that's his niche and unlike irelia, he's not even a champion early game (because irelia players try to make up this bullshit statement that she's "weak" early). And Nasus is garbage in teamfights whereas irelia, even late game where she falls off, can still gib carries by jumping on them. Nasus doesn't have this potential and any potential he ever had of doing this has been completely removed.

Of course course you're going to feel like Irelia isn't weak early, your champion pool is terrible at dealing with her. Out of your top 5 champs you play 4 champs who lose to Irelia and a skill matchup.

Irelia beats GP and Vlad because her kit is just great for dealing with ranged harass. She beats every ranged champ, that's her design and it's something that's needed in League. Ranged toplaners are often far too dominent and Irelia often shows in soloqueue as a counter to them.

Maokai (who you haven't played that much of) and Nasus are abysmal early game. They need to be, Nasus because he's a midgame god and Maokai because he's a teamfight god. Nasus spikes far harder midgame than Irelia, she has actually has no way to deal with him in the mid game if she can't shut him down. This is why Irelias tend to play aggressive into Nasus, she has to be the aggressor in this matchup because she can't allow Nasus to free scale, this is one of the few matchups that plays this way for Irelia however, she rarely plays the early aggressor and if this is the main matchup you view Irelia through you're going to view her as far stronger and more aggressive early because of the context, same goes for the Tree, just replace midgame with teamfights.

Jax is the famed skill matchup VS Irelia, I've played this matchup from both sides (although mostly Irelia into Jax) and I really don't think there's that much in it. Both champs can be aggressive, either can farm, if you're the better player you generally have a huge advantage on either.

Against most melee champs Irelia does lose lane hard however. Her ability to deal with champs like Riven, Fiora, Rumble and Garen isn't good at all. She also loses early to Darius, but I think people overrate him as a counter, as an Irelia player I'm more scared of a decent Jax than a good Darius.

Nasus and Jax have significantly more counterplay and meaningful decisions than irelia does. Jaxs E has so many decision points that quite frankly, this alone has more decision points than irelias entire kit. If you don't pop it right away for the stun, your upside is continued damage reduction from aoe spells and dodge from AAs but you likely get kites out and disengaged from so you have to pop right away usually to get the stun and lose out on the benefit of its potential power. And you had to use your Q to get in range of the enemy so you have no way to follow up past this.

Just to start off with, where's the counterplay? Based on what you wrote I only see ways for Jax to fuck up, I didn't see you mention any actual ways to play against him.

From a purely mechanical standpoint you're not wrong, Irelia doesn't have huge amounts of mechanical complexity. What you'd learn if you played her is that as Irelia you micro manage and pay attention to everything. Where the wave is as Irelia is super important, you need to be capable of manipulating and understanding wave mechanics to a far greater level on Irelia than other champs. You also need to be able to quickly analyse HP percentages, using your E as a slow is only really a good idea when there isn't a chance to stun, often new Irelia players struggle to understand when their E is a stun and use it slightly too early.

And yes, most of Irelia's counters come from counterpicking or prioritising her as a target to take out of the game. This is true of the bruiser class in general, they are champions who you rarely can outplay, if you fuck up and let the have a situation where they have an upper hand they win. That does not mean they lack counterplay however. You counter Irelia in basically the same way you counter Jax, even with her passive she can be CCed off of a carry and focused down, it's not even like tenacity is really that strong in the current state of the game where everyone runs knockups and displacements, Jax's R probably makes him marginally harder to deal with than Irelia's passive.

But ultimately you're not wrong, Irelia is a champion who when ahead will win virtually any 1v1, so is Jax, so is Nasus, so is Fiora or really any fighter in the game. What this ultimately comes down to is counterplay vs ability to outplay. Fighters get the final say on outplaying because of the nature of their class. The counterplay is not to give them a 1v1, you have to find other ways to play against them and what you will generally find is that what works against one is pretty good against the class.

Meanwhile, irelias E is good no matter what and it doesn't matter if you don't use it properly because you get a retardedly strong slow, and even if you out trade her you now get punished for it and eat a stupid 2 second stun.

Nasus player says fucking what?

If you really think a 60% slow is "retardedly strong" then I'd advise you to look at the power of most other champs slows, around 50-60% is utterly average. Irelia's E also isn't a 2 second duration in most cases. The majority of Irelia players max W first and E second, what this means is that from lvs 1-7 it's a 1 second duration and 8 and 9 it's a 1.25 second duration. If it doesn't matter whether Irelia uses her E as a slow I'd also say you've fucked something royally, because she's clearly so absurdly far ahead of you that you may as well just get up an leave.

JosephAngelo4 votes

I sure riot will give her a hefty combination of percent health damage, reactiveable abilities and 3-4 hit passives.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Suggestions for Equilibrium Strike - Make it like Braum's Winter's Bite. Slow for 2 seconds and if Irelia gets three autos off on the same target in that time, stun for 1 second.

Hiten Style - Make this lifesteal instead of healing on hit so she's forced to build AD. Have the true damage be much worse (like 10/15/20/25/30) but add a bonus AD ratio.

Transcendent Blades - I feel like Irelia's ult should just give her ranged attacks for the duration along with some other steroid, instead of just firing her blades off while she continues to auto in melee with the same blades.

Arakadia1 votes

That sounds pretty cool actually.

DJ Lucio1 votes

I like the way this idea sounds, but in a way, the Strike somewhat sounds like Fiora's with the slow but not the 3 hits off, but still a good idea nonetheless

LankPants3 votes

I'd personally prefer a relatively conservative rework. I don't like the idea of taking champs with fairly large playerbases and completely uprooting them, even when I've suggested that Ekko, Lee or Yas (who I despise) need reworks at some point I have said that they should be fairly conservative and mostly just tone down some of the most problematic areas in their kits.

I think most of the hate against Irelia falls into one of two camps, people hatting E and people hatting her passive. These are the logical areas to target when reworking Irelia.

Her Q is a functional ability and I don't think anyone argues against that.

Her W defines how she is played. It's her W which makes her the sort of AA and sustain based champion that people who play Irelia often like her for. Many won't name the ability specifically but a lot of people would say that they like Irelia's AA based fighter playstyle and her W is the ability that really drives that.

I'd argue that her R is a far better ability than people give it credit for. I feel like only Irelia players actually understand what this ability does and how important in actually is to her. People die to Irelia in fights and they blame her W or E, they never actually check where the second and third Triforce proc came from, they never realise it was the initial R onto a creep wave that allowed Irelia to close to them in the first place. This ability is so core to Irelia and good Irelia players tend to be the ones who can find creative ways to exploit it. Could you make an argument for it being better as a basic skill rather than an ult? Sure. But I don't think you can make a realistic argument that it's a bad skill.

That leaves her passive and her E.

For her passive I'd concentrate the effects into a Volibear style passive which cleansed CC when Irelia drops bellow a HP threshold and maybe granted her some bonus MS towards enemy champs to drive home that she should be a champion who always wants to continue to fight, even if the odds are against her. This would also be on a ~3-5 minute CD so you'd have times where Irelia is very obviously not CC resistant.

For her E I'd go with something like 'As Irelia is damaged (x% of HP within y seconds) she builds up stacks of Equilibrium, when Irelia's Equilibrium is capped her E stuns rather than slowing. While under the effects of CC Irelia builds Equilibrium twice as fast'. I'd also possibly shift part of the healing on W to Equilibrium stacks, probably meaning more powerful healing VS champs while W is active but less ability to stun targets since you'd be consuming your stacks. This would mean Irelia makes a clear tradeoff when she wants to stun you, losing some W damage before the stun an a lot of healing from W.

Rayde Turnas2 votes

So honestly, I feel like Irelia doesn't fit the them of "psychically controlled flying 4 blades of death" sort of champion her weapon is described as. I feel like to make it work properly, almost all her abilities will need to be scrapped so they can come up with new ones. The only time her animations do her any justice aren't even in her normal kit, they're things like her joke where she hovers on her blade, and her dance in Order of the Lotus, I would love to see her get maybe 2 ranged moves added to the kit, and a new ultimate that ups her fantasy better. If one move stays I would like it to be the dash, but if I had ideas they would look like this:

Passive: No idea, but something other than just Tenacity, and not a three hit effect... Rito please not a 3 hit effect...

Q: Keep the dash, but make it like Fiora's updated Lunge, so that you can also use it as a fun escape, and deal damage as Irelia passes through enemies and perhaps make some fun visual tweaks so that she actually drags the blades behind her, then swings them around both sides where she lands dealing some moderate AOE damage. It would keep her iconic dash, and really help with her early waveclear and teamfight initiation.

W: Here's where I would love a brand new ability, perhaps something that gathers her blades then sends them in a circle around her dealing damage and grounding enemies because it cuts at their ankles. (Again Order of the Lotus dance type of move) I like this change because some of Irelia's harder matchups are champions with some form of controlled Dash or Leap and this would be a moderate ranged move to deal with them before they dash to or away from you.

E: I love that Irelia has a kit which allows her to consistently stun opponents who come after her because she's at half or less life while they are full. But I would actually support changing this ability slightly to have more ranged focus than 'just outside melee' maybe something like Diana's Q where you can get the blades to travel in arcs before hitting the target, would be a neat change because it becomes a good setup for the rest of your kit.

R: Irelia's ultimate... Possibly the most lackluster move in her kit, because it is the only move that pretends to deliver on her fantasy. To be honest, if the theme of magically summoned spirit blades is going to be kept... I want it to feel like Gilgamesh from the Fate: Zero and Fate: Stay Night anime series. (If you haven't watched them yet, please feel free to thank me after)

So tl:dr

New kit, keep the dash, more flying blade moves, utilize new tech better for abilities.

PS I love Irelia and really just want Champ Update to do her justice.

Linna Excel2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rayde Turnas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YM7GBZ4t,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-09-27T02:04:38.454+0000)

So honestly, I feel like Irelia doesn't fit the theme of "psychically controlled flying 4 blades of death" sort of champion her weapon is described as. I feel like to make it work properly, almost all her abilities will need to be scrapped so they can come up with new ones. The

I'd rather they make her theme what she is now. Deleting champs in that manner isn't what the rework team should be doing.

Irelia Bot2 votes

RIP old Karma.

Riot never even tried to make you work.

Irelia Bot2 votes

I guess the question is what makes people see Irelia as toxic while champs like Jax and Xin are not seen the same way?

As for what I would change...

I'll start by considering what I like and do not like about each ability.

Passive: really nice against things like Morgana Snare but unreliable in more then one way due ti being based on number of allies VS.enemies and not effecting all CC types.

Q: Good for zoning and chasing and keeping trades going for longer then just a couple autos but limited in usefulness in escaping.

W: Good amount of true damage and nice healing but completely reliant on being ahead or under turret to make use of either factor safely during laning phase

E: Turns around trades being "lost" which does "fits her lore" to some degree. Stun might be a bit excessive but is also situational and is limited to a single target next to you.

Ult: Has better synergy with the rest of her kit then people think, it is good for making Leapfrog targets, trinity procs and is actually a lot of damage especially on grouped up enemies. Is her only built in form of quick wave clear and a fairly long cooldown currently early to mid game making it not a constant threat.

What I personally would like (be warned this is making all of her base kit actually work even better together and more complex and also a little more hybrid caster in damage.

Q: Bladesurege is the must keep thing on her kit no questions asked. Refreshing on killing the target be it minions or champs is unique to Irelia and make this gap closer unique in how people use it. 20 / 50 / 80 / 110 / 140 + 1.2 total AD + on hit effects

New W: Transcendent Blades Cooldown 20/18/16/14/12 seconds is something that would be really nice to keep in Irelia's kit somewhere given that it does provide ways to open up Irelia's stickiness. IMPROVEMENTS: A charge system like Akali's shadow Dance with a max of 2 charges. These blades pass through and damage minions but will impale them self in an enemy champ. IF Irelia blade surges to a enemy champ that is impaled, Transcendent Blades cooldown is reduced by 2 seconds. 70/85/100/115/130 + .4 Bonus AD + .6 AP magic damage.

New Passive: Hiten Style. 6% healing on all damage to champs and neutral monsters (half for minions); Single target attacks and abilities deal 10/14/18/22/26/30 true damage to champs and neutral monsters (half for minions) at levels 1/4/7/10/13/16

E: equilibrium strike, Application is the same as on live outside of a quicker cast time. Normally a 25/30/35/40/45% slow for one second, 10/9/8/7/6 second cooldown. Having Transcendent Blades impaled in an enemy champ with a higher % health being the condition for a stun. This would limit the stun to 1 second at a time and 2 stuns could be used in a combo if behind. 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 +.25 bouns AD (+ 50% AP)

A new ult is kinda challenging since i am not sure how to make it really fit into the rest of the kit but having it being a short duration with reduced impact of CC and slows would be within reason to keep aspects of her current passive alive but limited. Something like 4/5/6 seconds. Perhaps expanding on the telapathic blades by having a ("bladestorm" as a placeholder name) AoE effect for 400 radius around Irelia and applies a debuff too all hit enemies that reduces their CC effectiveness on Irelia by 50% and gives Irelia 10% CDR that can go over the 40% cap from items so in theory 55% CDR could be reached. 200/250/300 + .6 Bonus AD + .8 AP damage to everyone in range for 4/5/6 seconds 120/100/80 second cooldown that starts when the CDR buff ends.

Biggest issue is this seems more like an assassin then a fighter concept so I do not know how well it would actually work out. It would however make building more damage on Irelia be ideal. THis also is making her kit as over the top complex as certainlyT makes them.

Only 1 passive though.

Ralanr1 votes

I think they'd probably take away something from her kit (because it has everything a melee champion could want) and focus more on one aspect.

They might also remove her innate tenacity (because its holding back tenacity as a whole like Vladimir and spellvamp) but give her a built in cleanse like GP to reflect her inability to stay down.

Maybe a mechanic that gives her more stats with each enemy champion, making her a teamfight monster who gets the best out of diving the backline.

Personally I think her stun mechanic is stupid and should be replaced, but it'll probably stay in some form.

LankPants1 votes

Personally I think her stun mechanic is stupid and should be replaced, but it'll probably stay in some form.

If you remove Irelia's stun you'd need to hypercharge her damage to get her to an acceptable level of balance. At this point you would have created another Master Yi. I have a weird feeling that the last thing Riot wants to do is create another Yi given how legitimately unbalancable he's been as a champion.

Ralanr1 votes

Or replace it with some other form of utility.

LankPants1 votes

What form of utility could you give Irelia that wouldn't be super out of place on her kit?

Bare in mind that she's a dive based fighter, her primary goal is to dive into teams and kill a key target. Any form of utility which isn't CC tends to be at odds with that goal.

When you try to force utility onto a dive fighter you get Fiora's ult, it's out of place. Everyone said it was out of place on her release, most people still do. It just feels off. Why is my super selfish dive based fighter healing the team?

The only utility you could justify giving Irelia over a hard CC would be a dueling debuff, AKA an AS slow. It would have to be more reliable than her stun and probably longer because it's innately far weaker, part of a stun is an effective 100% AS slow. This is a horrible idea for many, many reasons but it's the only thing other than a stun which wouldn't feel super out of place on her kit.

Ralanr1 votes

A cleanse?

LankPants1 votes

A cleanse isn't a substitute for hard CC. Irelia with only a cleanse and no hard CC would probably be far worse to play against than she is now.

Think about how GP functions, he has his cleanse and just absurd damage. Once you take away Irelia's CC she's mostly just left with damage, so that damage needs to be absurd, similar to GP.

At the point where you have an absurd damage Irelia what do you actually have? Probably a slightly lower damage version of Yi who can't be CCed out of fights.

Irelia having her stun is what makes her playable with a longer kill time. Because she can lock a target down while she DPSes them down it means their allies can appropriately react to her. You may not like this but without her CC Irelia would have to be turned into a flat out assassin in order to function and an assassin with a cleanse is just a terrible idea.

Ralanr1 votes

Fair enough. I do not play her enough (I honestly find her kit boring but that's just a personal preference) to really have a solid idea of what to replace on her. And I will admit my own bias (I don't like stuns on champions with high dueling power since it feels like they just need to stun you to win the trade and she does it when you're winning. She basically cock blocks you imo) towards her.

LankPants1 votes

(I don't like stuns on champions with high dueling power since it feels like they just need to stun you to win the trade and she does it when you're winning. She basically cock blocks you imo) towards her.

When I was thinking about her E this is the angle I was basically approaching it from. I'll just post what I wrote at 1am last night for how to make her stun feel fairer and justify it a little better

For her E I'd go with something like 'As Irelia is damaged (x% of HP within y seconds) she builds up stacks of Equilibrium, when Irelia's Equilibrium is capped her E stuns rather than slowing. While under the effects of CC Irelia builds Equilibrium twice as fast'. I'd also possibly shift part of the healing on W to Equilibrium stacks, probably meaning more powerful healing VS champs while W is active but less ability to stun targets since you'd be consuming your stacks.

Why would this be useful? Firstly it makes it very clear when Irelia is going to be able to stun you since you could easily add a particle or a Jhin style bar to show how close she is to a stun.

It also forces Irelia to make a tradeoff for her stun, since if she's not getting super-nuked she'd have to chose between activating her W and stacking her stun much slower or holding off on her W and pottentially losing because she's lacking damage.

Of course this chose is also partially in the enemies hands as they can chose how hard they want to press Irelia in a duel. If Daruis hooks Irelia in and instanly Qs her, AAs her and W resets on her he'd most likely give her a stun, but in the same situation if he hooked her and started trading AAs with her she might burn through enough E stacks with her W to allow him to burst her from 50%.

I also wouldn't want Irelia to completely burn her stacks with E at higher ranks, which I didn't explicitly write (because 1am). My reasoning for this is that if Irelia does get bursted out and survives she's a character who probably should be able to regain the upper hand. Having her E burn something like 100/80/60/40/20% of stacks would let her turn around failed assassinations as she does currently, as well as actually function somewhat in teamfights abet needing to take a bit more damage than her current 0 in order to do so.

Ralanr1 votes

But wouldn't this allow Irelia to stun targets she was unable to before? Like targets of lower health?

I feel that basing it around a %of her missing HP would on encourage her to build more tanky which is a build that people have problems with.

LankPants1 votes

But wouldn't this allow Irelia to stun targets she was unable to before? Like targets of lower health?

Yes it would, but it would also remove her ability to stun targets she otherwise would be able to. It's a tradeoff, basically you need to watch how you deal with Irelia, you and your teammates are the ones with the power to give her a stun, but if you play around it properly it would be more possible to completely deny her a stun, but it's a dangerous game if you CC lock her an fail to properly deal with her she's going to build up a stun far more quickly.

I feel that basing it around a %of her missing HP would on encourage her to build more tanky which is a build that people have problems with.

Not quite, that's true if it's a damage based ability, but not here. If it were a flat number, let's say 100 for argument then that would encourage her to HP stack. Why? When you have 5001 HP you can lose 100 HP 50 times before you die, when you have 2001 HP you can only lose 100 HP 20 times. The %HP in this case encourages lower HP builds with more resists (what she generally builds currently) as she can potentially regenerate more HP than on tankier builds.

Encouraging Irelia to build absolute glass doesn't seem like it should be the goal to me anyway. Her build has always been Triforce>Tank, I haven't ever really seen a problem with this.

Ralanr1 votes

I personally am not a fan of her Triforce tank builds because she feels like a juggernaut without the kiting weakness. I know divers need to be a bit tanky, but being able to function with just one damage item and then going full tank should only work for juggernauts imo.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

link to rework please

LankPants1 votes

Nothing official has been announced. A Rioter just put forwards a list of champions who were likely to receive reworks in the next couple of years and Irelia was on it.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

which forum, do you know? Like was it GD or gameplay or was it like reddit or something

TFBaam1 votes

link? i cant find it

Xypher1 votes

Maybe they could give her a conditional true damage on W, and a new ultimate. As of now it's mostly just useful for finishing off the kills that are about to escape or to get additional sheen procs

Arakadia1 votes

I think that her lore would more fit an AD caster with some type of high ranged but melee auto attacks similar to that of Tahm Kench. Maybe turn her ult into a charge system basic ability.

However, her current gameplay is pretty different from that so it would change her alot.

Linna Excel1 votes

If riot's rework team is smart, all they'd do is touch how the stun/slow mechanic on her E works as that's the major complaint against her. I could also see them giving her a new passive.

However I doubt they are going to do the smart thing.

Requiemsfire1 votes

I think if they do rework her they should keep her dash and her W( to an extent).

Why?

Well her Q in my opinion offers a lot to her identity and often feels smart to Q to a single minion to get that reset walk up to an enemy and punish them for not recognizing that situation but also when you chain combo onto an enemy champion to get a kill reset and then go to the next enemy for the double. This ability has a lot of playmaking potential and isn't necessarily overpowered in my opinion. It's simply unique in how you can use this to close into your enemies and how it functions differentiates from other abilities in the game.

Her W is interesting in how it grants yourself a small amount of sustain and even though activating it does only raise that heal a little bit and grant you true damage on hit it's always created an interesting versatility in how you raise your skills without actually being super power. No, I don't think the true damage on it is broken nor do I think it's useless. It's a fantastic tool for sustaining yourself in lane especially against ranged laners. If anything was to remain of this ability I would say the heal on-hit is definitely it.

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