AP itemization feels so lackluster compared to AD

AquariusGine··99 votes·4,175 views

I remember when I felt powerful playing AP champions. Why is it necessary to make AP carries fall off lategame? (With the exception of a few) Also, why are AP items always having their AP reduced over and over again?

Long story short, I don't enjoy playing AP champions that much anymore. I used to main almost all of them. Here's a list of champions that I've completely stopped playing because of various reasons : Annie AurelionSol Azir Leblanc Malzahar Taliyah Velkoz Viktor Ziggs Zyra

Nowadays I enjoy playing top lane a lot more than mid. Playing bruisers make me feel impactful and powerful. I don't want to rely on hitting an Orianna RW lategame and not even denting half their health unless I snowballed out of control in the first place.

If you think AP champions are worth playing for reasons other than team needs AP damage, please do share it with me.

Sincerely, A sad mid lane main.

101 Comments

Aeko15 votes

One of the reasons why I dislike AP champions in general. I always feel a bit restricted when it comes to itemization on AP champions compared to AD. Also doesn't help that riot kinda pushed the AP champions toward a general direction which is more flat AP and penetration instead of unique build paths. I used to love going rylais liandries void frost queens on velkoz but now it's all just flat ap.

Sincerely A sad ex mid lane main.

Velzard of Koz6 votes

Everybody abandoning our lord and saviour I see... Velkoz Cries in science

OceanicEyes5 votes

Tears appear to serve no function

SweedishGunner15 votes

The MR per level changes were pretty substantial and I think people are ignoring them.

By level 18 you get a free 9MR, that's enough to nullify the most common 7.8 Mpen taken in runes, which I'd say is pretty big.

crzymdscntst13 votes

I feel consistently like I'm dealing enough DPS as an AP champ, but the fall-off still happens due to durability and sticking power. If you can't live long enough to land a couple spells, the general pattern is that you of course will fall off. The sticking power point is that other items scale too well. ADCs who can out-lifesteal a 1k nuke is definitely a concern.

Shields and health are particularly more of a counter for AP mages in a sense, because a nuke will deal "X" damage (reduced by MR). It then has to wait to be cast again. That wait period in early-to-mid game is a bit more consistent with the dps you need/want to be dealing, maybe not game-breaking, but certainly impacting. A 500 damage nuke on a 6 second cooldown sounds hefty, but the rate of fire means if it doesn't kill, the enemy can then retaliate, regenerate, mitigate and/or retreat. It's not that you're looking for an assassin pattern of a fast kill, but you certainly want to be able to hit again and actually kill on the 2nd or 3rd set of output you dish out. This doesn't happen so fluidly.

You consider the various roles you are fighting based on itemization... ADC: item 3156 + item 3072 (2 shields and silly sustain piled on top of DPS.) Tank: item 3065 + now: item 3001 and/or item 3194 Assassin: item 3814 + item 3156

(Bruisers/Juggernauts fall into a hybrid-class of a few of the above, usually using the same items.)

Supports and Mages generally are your prime targets since they ideally are the targets on level footing. The items they have available are the same ones you probably can get to counter them. Which is really troublesome since that line is foggy for those 2 roles. Yet it's more I find that the means to counter the other types of enemies are insufficient, rather than the fact that they can counter-build you.

If you counter-build an ADC as an AP caster: item 3157 item 3047 If you counter-build a tank as an AP caster: item 3151 item 3116 item 3135 An Assassin? item 3157 item 3047 or item 3111 item 3102

It's weird, because health is the counter-all. So Rylai's, RoA, GLP and Protobelt provide in that regard, but the more you analyze it's not quite the same efficiency as other roles have. Zhonya's doesn't really compel consistent engagement, more of an "oh crap" button than anything. You get a couple seconds on your cooldowns, but generally are put sitting duck. Boots? As a counter, they aren't really the most efficient choice, but sometimes you just have to. Liandry's makes for health melting goodness, but as a DoT you both need the magic pen and the CC through probably rylai's to make it count all while giving up sustain that other classes don't.

item 3135 is a weird one. It technically has more gold value than a Deathcap. Think about that for a second. It's dps-granting powers come from the Magic Pen which allows you to hit closer to the true dps-value of a spell. Your spell can read that it will deal 500 damage, but 100 MR will make that deal 250 damage without MPen. Void staff mitigates the effects of MR in this sense.

The only items I can 100% say work in a sense are Luden's and Morello's. One gives base power combined with utility of a splash to a spell and the other gives enough base stats to keep someone running for a while before you even consider the passive, which is necessary to counter a heal-based player, but also relies on a health threshold that people can sometimes avoid dropping below. (Though it wouldn't necessarily be fair or balanced if it was applied before the current threshhold.)

It's not easy to explain exactly what's wrong with itemization for mages, but here's the core points:

  • Utility. Uniques abilities items have, need to work for intended use or have an additional use to begin with.
  • Sustain/Durability. AP caster items lack a certain edge if you're looking for it.
  • Synergy. If you analyze what works about the items other classes use, you'll notice a lot more effects on items that kinda chain together. Synergy as a point is a weird one though. It's not that all the items don't have a certain synergy individually, only that the total composite effects could use some work, so that a complete item has more impact than buying a similarly priced component item.
Thefrostyviking1 votes

Burst tends to fall of lategame when people can survive it unless done beautifully. (Which only gets harder to do)

So poke and dps mages like Anivia, Zyra, cassiopeia and....malz are actually supposed to be the ultimate lategame mages.

Oh and Azir. ....Aurelion maybe?

But guess what? All these ones have been nerfed heavily, some becoming directly unplayable while others having their skillfloor rise through the roof like Azir and Aurelion.

I used to main Anivia, Zyra and Malz mid :(

Leonerdo1 votes

Anivia is one of the best midlaners right now. Like top 5. I agree with everything else you said, but Anivia doesn't belong with the rest of those champions.

RavenKouhai1 votes

Why's Anivia so strong right now? Not calling her OP or anything, just weird that she was considered outdated, immobile trash for a year or two and suddenly I'm seeing her in the LCS.

Leonerdo1 votes

I'm not sure exactly. They made her ult much stronger, in exchange for a much less reliable R>E combo. I don't play her though, so I don't know why that landed her in such a good spot. (I think she was always semi-strong, but no one played her.) However, I do know that she's got really good winstats right now. And what few Anivias I've seen have been quite formidable.

Sagaxwiki1 votes

I honestly think it is more a case of she has always been like she is right now, its just that her competition has become weaker and the meta suits her more.

Enloct9 votes

You got a whole fucking array of choices my man.

item 3027 Frontline item 3165 Backline item 3152 Manaless

Now finish up withitem 3020 item 3151 item 3135

That's only 4 of your items predetermined for you. You got a whole 2 to play with...unless you want to buy defences then its item 3157 and item 3102 because fuck making actual strategic choices in this game.

0 Hogapu1 votes

Ekko isnt manaless, and is frontline. Still buys item 3152 though.

Enloct1 votes

Yeah but I lazily whipped up that post in 30 seconds. Of course there are a few exceptions. Of course there are situations where you buy stuff like item 3089 item 3285 but again that's going to be determined by your champion based on their ratios and play pattern. It really doesn't vary based on what is happening ingame.

More than anything I the the fact that the 2 resistance items for mages are

item 3157 Horrible unless you are one of the few picks for whom its passive is useful. item 3102 Horrible unless your enemies are one of the few picks for whom its passive is useful.

There's just too much that is predetermined and doesn't change from game to game.

TEA Nietzsche 8 votes

Sorry man, but I think it's universally agreed on that midlane >>> toplane in terms of impact. Midlaners can impact the jungler much better than toplaners and junglers are huge for winning the game. Midlaners also can impact botlane better than toplaners, which is huge aswell. Getting the first turret opens up the map more than every other turret - all of this makes midlaners have the biggest impact.

While I concede that there are several midlaners that actually suck right now (Annie gets outranged by Ori, Azir is trash, Malz has never been good mid, Viktor is pretty mediocre right now and Zyra is bad in mid) there are quite a few of the ones you named that should allow you to carry: (Aurelion is underestimated af, LB is a good splitpusher/roamer, Taliyah will kite&kill every toplaner, has great pressure in lane and roam, Vel is pretty damn safe and Ziggs takes turrets while just not losing).

tl;dr: if you have trouble winning in midlane you need to get better at it. But if you tend up to walk up in melee range trying to 1v1 you will probably find more success with toplaners (although I don't see why you would do that).

E: who disagrees with midlane having more impact than toplane overall?

DrCyanide1 votes

I think in general whatever role you're not playing is the one you think has the most impact on the game.

KakitaMike1 votes

{quoted}

I think in general whatever role you're not playing is the one you think has the most impact on the game.

Wouldn't that mean the majority of people think support has the most impact? :D

DrCyanide3 votes

Why do you think there was a phase with so much complaining that having an Auto Filled support on your team meant you lost?

NineTailedMystic8 votes

Because APs all dip into each others itemization very easily making it hard to design items for one type of AP such as AP Bruiser, Burst Mages, or AP Assassins without them being abused by another type. See: Luden's Echo was the replacement for DFG which was mostly for AP Assassins. Who builds it the most now? Syndra, Lux, Orianna, etc.

Meanwhile, Riot has been very proactive in discouraging ADs from dipping into each others itemization as they have very clear intended buyers, but even then abuse cases still happen frequently.

DarkRitual6 votes

Champs should get base AP, and AP/Level. Adjust some items to use Base/Bonus/Total AP ratios (item 3152 item 3030 item 3285 item 3146) Adjust AP ratios on all champions to use Base/Bonus/Total. Mostly this would differentiate the mage subclasses, and have little effect on champions who don't actually buy AP. Would also help to stop some Mages from being nerfed into Support (likely not enough on it's own though).

It would be a ton of work, and need a good few patches of fine tuning, but I think it would be a significant improvement for the game overall.

Syndra has 0 AP at level 18. So much untapped power eh?

DrCyanide5 votes

You're a little off on Luden's Echo

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-55-notes/

Our new 120 ability power item is here to fill the void left by the passing of Deathfire Grasp (rest in pieces). Goals up front: we want to provide a unique item that helps out movement-focused, spell-slinging mages, like kitey Lux, bursty-train Akali, or even spell-slingy (that's a word) Karthus. Try it out and let us know what combinations work with you - we'll be keeping a close eye here as new experiments get brought out

AKA: they replaced an assassin/burst mage only item with an item for every AP user, and they hit the mark.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

You're a little off on Luden's Echo

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-55-notes/

AKA: they replaced an assassin/burst mage only item with an item for every AP user, and they hit the mark.

Except Akali doesn't even use Luden and probably never will x)

....Fairly sure it's core for the true burst Diana builds though.

0 Hogapu1 votes

I play a lot of diana, I barely never get Luden,and if I do, it is as a 5thor 6th item. The burst damage it provides is not as important as it looks tbh, lich bane does more+ has cdr and mana

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Katárina Bot,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YHx6Hjhm,comment-id=0005000100010000,timestamp=2017-05-11T20:33:44.739+0000)

I play a lot of diana, I barely never get Luden,and if I do, it is as a 5thor 6th item. The burst damage it provides is not as important as it looks tbh, lich bane does more+ has cdr and mana

I´ve seen Korean's outright Rushing it as a first item when feeling confident and i´ve done so myself.

It's really good when you know that a snowball is possible :)

Thilmer7 votes

AP champions use to have more AP because skills have a considerably CD and autoattacks have basically no CD.

Now an AP champion can have 300 AP and find an AD champion with 300 AD that also has magic resistance, "life steal" and many other things.

AP has been falling behind for many seasons because of absurd nerfs. We used to have 3 ítems that gave 120 AP; now we have 1. Meanwhile, we face "defensive ítems" that also give a considerably amount of AD.

In terms of stats, is like the AD champions have four or five Zhonyas, while AP champions only have one Zhonyas and it has been nerfed in everything.

Voluug131 votes

''B-But now you all have more cdr amirite''

Handin Out Naps5 votes

I don't want to rely on hitting an Orianna RW lategame and not even denting half their health.

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IGotScuttleCrabs3 votes

Yea if you hit anything that's not a tank with an RW and don't deal half their health then you're not only "not fed" but extremely behind.

Prestige AkaIi5 votes

I don't see anything wrong with AP items right now. Sure they don't give as much AP as when DFG was a thing or before Zhonya's was nerfed, but mages still do an oppressive amount of damage mid to late game.

Though, I don't care much if the items are changed too much as long as Taliyah is still fun as hell. Plus she's almost always good, even when she's bad, as long as you can play her. XD

Edit - "If you think AP champions are worth playing for reasons other than team needs AP damage, please do share it with me." I don't know if it was clear, but my reason for playing mid is Taliyah because not only is she fun, but her abilities give her the power the change the flow of the game. Her ult can completely change the outcome of a fight, for good or bad, which is why it's really rewarding learning to play her.

Ok sure but why4 votes

If it makes you feel better, at least mages can do a shit-ton of damage without even buying items, since their base damage is so high.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Exactly. If mages think they have it soo hard they should just play GP mid like i do. Once they come back with that stupid mana codex they can spam and push all day long and no matter how much you dodge you WILL get hit sometimes with an ori QW for example chunking you for 3/4 of your health with TLD while having like 40-60 AP. They can efficiently roam all day, have very low cooldowns. It's so sad how much better you have to play on GP mid than your average midlaner to achieve the same thing and that op even has the guts to pick ORIANNA as an example just makes matters worse. Tell me more how hard it is to RW and delete an entire team except tanks.

Dream High3 votes

Well stop playing gp mid if you're going to complain.

He is a difficult champion to play. On the other hand he scales hard and generates a lot more gold due to his passive on top of his exceleny wave clear and poke.

MunchCrunchLunch4 votes

mages have way bettter winrate than ad mid lane. ridiculous argument

deadlychuck12 votes

Probably not in lane.

You can generally chock the win up to the better mixed damage on the team.

TEA Nietzsche 12 votes

No, it's overall utility. AD midlaners have no "utility" (aka waveclear, sustained damage, CC, shields or high range poke) compared to mages. They compensate that with mobility and being slippery (not burst, there are also burst mages like Syndra who simply lack the mobility to function as an assassin). Mobility in combination with burst is obviously a good combination when it comes to killing people, which means that AD champions tend to counter mages (although there are anti assassin mages aswell who get countered by high range mages.. You get the idea).

That means it's pretty clear that if AD assassins go even with AP mages the AP mage tends to come out ahead because they are useful without kills and snowballing. Therefore it's unfair to say "look at AD assassins, they have a strength" while ignoring the phase of the game where AP mages are stronger.

That obviously doesn't mean that AD assassins can't be OP, but you really need to look at the whole picture. As of right now I think Yasuo and Zed are balanced/strong (although Yasuo is probably overtuned in toplane) while Talon, Fizz, Kata and Kassadin are sleeper OP (some less "sleeper" but simply OP).

Troll for Trump1 votes

Talon's OP because of the pigeonholing into his kit, which basically promotes no interaction with the enemy laner beyond the level 2 cheese(which they've discouraged with nerfs)

Divewing1 votes

I'd say it's more that you have to be super damned aware of the map when Talon is around as walls do little to hinder him, and in most cases actually help him, so he can cover a ludicrous amount of ground in a short space of time, and gank you from awkward/unconventional ways.

Combine that with a low-ish pick rate and most people below diamond probably dont respect/remain aware of his threat when he's MIA.

Troll for Trump1 votes

They pigeon holed him into roaming only. That's why he's so good at it

Divewing1 votes

Meh...

I actually liked it. Playing Talon felt stupidly vanilla beyond serving as a cookie-cutter assassins creed template, so having an actual identity rather than 'Assassins Creed 7: Summoner's Rift' was pretty welcome to me

Troll for Trump1 votes

Err... isn't parkouring and constantly roaming all over the place looking for easy pickings more Assassin's Creed than before?

Divewing1 votes

Certainly, but Talon now is THE roaming assassin.

He's the premier assassin for murdering some poor son of a bitch with/in tiny windows of opportunity (in a macro context)

Troll for Trump1 votes

Yeah, which I don't like.

HIs old iteration was better;

Before you had to actually play defensive and then try going in on the lane opponent.

Now, you have the level two cheese, a lot more tools to survive in lane, and don't even need to interact with the lane opponent post level 2

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

You're right it is. But that's because the reason behind itemization is different per type of champion.

Look at adc's, their job is pretty much right click in a various way. Now while ADC's may be diverse in how they do something (Jhin and Ashe Utility, Cait range, Vayne KILL ability) their job still boils down into Right click, with some left clicks thrown in as well. Now, from a Mid lane perspective, that can be pretty boring sometimes, so they diversify by giving them options for build.

The Various AS items help choose what type of ADC ya want, or something to compensate. Statick and Fireshot for extra damage, Static and Runaans for waveclear, Fireshot and PD for some added survival etc. Various Lifesteals for what you want to do (BT for drain tanking, Mecurial for safety, BorK for tank killing) and you have your CDR combo for those Crit builds who might also like CDR (IE, Essence). Playing ADC is almost like a Build-a-bear workshop, where you get a baseline, and then you can build it the way you want, or a do it yourself dessert shop.

Mages are different because their variability are in their actual kit. They range from a numerous amount of things from Range, Zone control, LOTSA damage, CC, tank killing, etc. with the only common factor being Damage. They don't need itemization to become unique, because they're already unique in their own way. They're that ice cream you buy at Salt & Straw, they're already unique enough where they don't need items to vary up gameplay.

ADC's get variation in items because they're right click, Mages don't because their job is concrete in what they do, and how they do it. They're meant to be a more strict "You do this very well" Class, unlike ADC who is "You can do this very well in various ways" since ADC's come on later in the game usually.

Jasiwel2 votes

I don't think it's lackluster necessarily, but I do think that the itemization can become exceptionally redundant. Right now on Ryze, I am literally bouncing between two builds: item 3027 item 3003 item 3102 item 3135 item 3110 item 3158 and item 3027 item 3003 item 3110item 3165 item 3135 item 3020 . And if I'm not building exactly those, then the build doesn't really deviate from those items. I mean sure, I could probably throw a item 3157 or item 3089 in there somewhere, but the problem is mostly that I'm building literally the same stuff every game.

On ADCs and AD Bruisers, the builds are generally way more adaptive (4 different Zeal items to choose from, Hydra family, Lifesteal choices, tank items, etc).

ProfDrDeath4 votes

Ionian Boots with Frozen Heart and 'Nomicon?

Jasiwel2 votes

Nice catch, I meant for those to be Sorc Shoes.

Edit: I will say that I have also gone Ionian Boots before finishing Morello's/Frozen and then traded them for Sorc Shoes upon breaching the CDR cap.

DiscoVinzan2 votes

I think part of the unfun started when they replaced Mana Regen with Raw Mana. Xerath hurts man

Who is Taliyah2 votes

Taliyah is worth playing cuz fun.

Crimsonknight902 votes

every single OP AD item is justified because AP's have this item 3157 good day [slayer-jinx-catface]

Laxfan522 votes

Every single ap champ is useless because adc's have item 3156 oritem 3139 depending if the mage has burst or cc. Assassins have item 3156 oritem 3814 depending if the mage has burst or cc. Tanks have item 3194 if the mage has consistent damage or item 3001 if they want to give their ap champ more damage or item 3065 if they dont want either of those.

With all that being said, each class has items to counter the others. Just because there is one item for ap champs that counters ad doesnt mean that ad champions should have stronger stats on all of their items.

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