Zed's base health regeneration could stand to be a tiny bit lower

darkdill··50 votes·1,674 views

Currently, Zed is sitting around 7.2 per 5 seconds at level 1. And since he typically rushes out Bilgewater Cutlass, poke attacks on him quickly become useless against him because he'll just sustain through them. This makes him obnoxious for poke mages to deal with early on.

Yes, QSS and Zhonya's do shut him down, but before that time he can quickly get fed and never even let you reach those items before he dooms your team. And when you're forced to rush a Seeker's Armguard instead of a mana regeneration item, that just adds to the frustration factor.

Zed needs to have more meaningful weaknesses, and I think one of them should be a vulnerability to poke damage. He can already dodge incoming attacks easily with his W, why should he also be able to sustain through everything?

EDIT: To put it in perspective, Zed has a lot of the same advantages as Katarina. Reliable manaless poke, evasiveness, and very good last-hit capability. Compared to Kat, though, he also has lifesteal compatibility, whereas Katarina rushing Spell Vamp is ill-advised. He needs to pay for that in some way, and having lower health regeneration is a good way to go about it. It means he needs to be more careful about being poked, and either dodge poke with his abilities or play more cautiously.

36 Comments

Vistha Kai4 votes

"Sustain through everything." Zed shouldn't be able to buy HP pots. They help him sustain "through everything". Please nerf.

Olath Quortek4 votes

I think they should do to him exactly what they did to Katarina: Manaless champion with good poke, mobility and last hitting/clear; nerfed base health regen. And yes I know he has energy and he runs out of that if he does too many things but lets be honest here... No energy champion has ever been pushed out of lane because they were out of energy... They get pushed out because they are out of health and as a melee assassin that should be a meaningful weakness.

Kosm1K4 votes

I believe that Zed should get his hp/5 nerfed since his hp/5 is 7 starting and only ramps up from there, when other midlaners begin with lower hp regen, and are gated by mana. He by all means should be vulnerable to poke damage, especially since his poke damage is free, while other midlaner's have to use their precious mana in order to do so.

LifeCyclesTWA1 votes

I believe his health regen is high because he is a melee character designed to take out those AP-ranged-mids. Compare him to the other melee-AD-assassin Talon who has a base 8.5 health regen.

darkdill11 votes

Talon doesn't rush BoRK, while Zed players tend to do so.

All I'm saying is that good health regeneration doesn't really fit for Zed when he should instead be using Living Shadow or Death Mark to dodge attacks.

LifeCyclesTWA3 votes

No but Talon's do grab Vampiric Scepter early to build into Ravenous Hyrdra.

His Living Shadow has an 18 second CD most of the game and his Death Mark is his ultimate lol. Zed is just fine imo.

Shield Villain8 votes

No, they don't. I'm a Talon main and I can tell you that's a mistake on Talon. Most decent Talons will rush a Brutalizer for the Armor Pen, and Cool down reduction, given Talon has high cool downs early game. Then they'll pick up a Tiamat and go from there depending on a game.

Hydra is a Late Early game item/Early Mid Game. The active is great, and while you do require sustain, it's not worth rushing it. You're an assassin, after all, and you all in for your kills. You don't beat around the lane just sustaining and trading.

Early game you poke, then you all in as soon as you can. Because of this, the Brutalizer is the best item for early game. Followed by Tiamat for the active effect and passive. You'll also rarely see a BOTRK on Talon since he's not fully auto reliant, or a Blood thirster since there are better items.

A typical Talon build consists of item 3270 item 3031 item 3074 item 3142 item 3071 item 3035

Build Order: item 1036 item 3134 item 3077 item 1001 item 3142 item 3117 item 3074 item 3035 item 3071 item 3031

LifeCyclesTWA2 votes

I played ranked Talon a little bit from S2 to S3, now just normals. Had about 200-300 games logged as him in normals though over that span of time.

S2 my average stats with Talon per ranked game were: 12.1 / 6.5 / 7.2 over 25 games

S3 my average stats with Talon over 19 ranked games were: 15.1 / 6.6 / 8.3

Only difference between now and this is he lost his silence. Since then, I stopped playing him competitively. Before, I'd only use him as a counterpick to the common meta champions of that time.

How early I grab boots is dependant upon the enemy laner, but my typically build order is

4x item 1036 Turn 2x longsword into item 3134 Then turn 1x longsword into item 1053 Then turn final longsword into item 3077

If at any point I cannot build towards my next item, I will either buy another Longsword to go towards a Last Whisper, once I do this I start buying Elixir of Wraths if I can't afford next item. Talon falls off hard late game in comparison to other champions, you typically want to win your games within the first 20-25 minutes, so you need to get more and more damage as often as possible to snowball.

I grab Youmuu's Ghostblade before Ravenous Hydra, btw.

I also HATE Black Cleaver on Talon, I feel it is a huge noob trap. Its armor penetration effect ramps up over attacks, whereas with Talon you want your burst ASAP. Its 40 damage is also shit compared to other items you can get, especially when you look at his insane ratios.

EDIT: OMG! Sorry Szeraphim, I just realized you are a Bronze 3 player with 3 Talon ranked wins xD

Shield Villain3 votes

Scepter isn't that great on him though. It gives you only live steal, and no additional damage from a long sword. You're better off buying a item 1037 for 75 more gold. That way you can rush your Tiamat and deal more damage.

Since you're not ranged and your only harass ability is Rake, 10% life steal isn't really that amazing. You'll take about 50 from an auto, and gain only 7-15. Realistically you're only going in to execute minions, or harass with your Rake if you're good at Mana management.

It use to be you built two brutalizers, one after you finished Ghost Blade, but obviously there's no point after they changed Black Cleaver.

Now a days by the time you have a Brut and Tiamat you'll be clearing waves with a rake and 1-2 autos. You'll also have a little more burst. And since you are an assassin that's really all you need, burst. Unless you go Talon top against tanks. Then you would want to invest in some life steal so you can sustain against them, and still harass them. Otherwise going ham on a squishy is your best ticket to snowballing, and a Brut Tiamat combo will typically get the job done if they're at 60-70% health.

LifeCyclesTWA2 votes

Aight, my way works damn well as well and has netted me over an 80% victory win rate as Talon in ranked. Granted, there is always room for improvement (anyone who is not a pro has room for improvement, and even pros need to constantly improve)

And this thread is to argue whether or not Zed should get his HP regen nerfed, and the OP listed Zed grabbing an early BotRK as a reason to do so. I can guarantee in the laning phase Zed gains more health back from his HP Regen than his life-steal, and a hit to his regen would be huge.

Shield Villain2 votes

Given how relatively safely Zed can harass and poke, even wave clear while doing so, a nerf would be in order. It would encourage him to do more than just play safe, as assassins are supposed to be High Risk High Reward.

Whenever I play Zed I don't really consider it difficult. Most laners will stand back and even move away from a Shadow. it does have a high cool down. but it gives me enough positioning and extra strength to do a lot within the time I have it up. It's a lot more difficult to dodge 2 angled shurikens, after all, and does make you rethink getting to close to Zed. Thus allowing him safer farming.

Taking away some of that health regen would help those who are laning against him trade damage on him. Even if only a little. It's not a significantly huge change, given his already safe play style.

LifeCyclesTWA4 votes

But you have low MMR and are a Bronze rank.

Bjerg playing Challenger ranked games as his famous Zed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jRI8sAFgmw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-PCfuN1dwM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAHEN42vgCE

These games are against challenger ranked players using Aniva, Lux, and Leblanc. All of which he is getting traded with often and he takes more punishment than your average ranged AP mid.

Shield Villain2 votes

You'd be surprised how many Gold Elo players I get matched up against, including a Plat every now and again in Solo Normals. The match making system is incredibly wonky.

I've gone up against a Gold Anivia before that was having difficulty with me. If a Gold has difficulty against a Bronzie Zed, then either the Champion is easy to master, over powered, or they just suck/are new to their champion.

Either way I would think a Gold would have decent in game knowledge to know how to counter a Zed.

Even so, it's not a significant nerf to Zed. It's about the same as that tiny AS nerf on him at the beginning of the season. I really doubt he'd notice 2 less health regen every 5 seconds.

LifeCyclesTWA3 votes

MMR.

Basically you are good enough to play Gold/Plat players but aren't good enough/don't play champions that can carry Bronze players. Elo hell. You play at a higher level than your rank but can't seem to carry your teams.

If you really do play against that many gold players, that explains why. And gold/plat players aren't anything special. You'll eventually get to that rank and it'll make you sad because there are loads of mistakes made in those elos by players as well.

Shield Villain3 votes

Well, I don't play much Ranked in General. I don't have the patience for it, not the desire to climb the Elo latter. I rather just play the game and learn as much as I can in normals. A lot less stressful too.

But yeah, i agree. Gold isn't all that special. I've seen a lot of Goldies play like Bronzies. And Plats typically do seem to be a lot better, but only to an extent where they don't do bad. At least in my experience.

Either way. I still think that a small Zed nerf on his regen wouldn't be that bad. He didn't seem to notice the AS nerf. At least I wasn't able to.

Yer Not My Uncle3 votes

Zed is in a fine place. I have no idea why people are complaining about him. The difference between Zed and Talon? Zed also requires 100x more skill to properly use. It's like seeing Riven players. They're either shit, or they're great, there is no in between. No ranked games as Zed either season so I can't see what you've done with him, but I'm pretty sure it's nothing great, and the point blank that you say you don't really consider it difficult shows. Most laners back from Living Shadow? No ... They are going to dodge what you throw and then push in and abuse you for the next 18 seconds while you're only possibility of dodging is right clicking or flash. Talon can also still 100/0 before they get item 3157 popped. Zed players? Once they have Zonyas you can no longer "Assassinate" them. Marksman? Build a item 3140 and if your team cannot make them pop it before you ult, well there goes your assassination ability. Zed is the highest skilled mid lane champion in the game. But people will always want to cry about him.

Shield Villain4 votes

He really doesn't require that much skill. You don't have to manage resources or mana, you're energy. You wait 10 seconds and you're back to full energy and able to go through a rotation again. Even then i've never experienced not being able to at least use my Q for harass.

You could argue that Zhonyas and QSS nullifies a lot of champions, and really it's the only way to nullifies Zed 0-100. As for Talon, you can just flash, or even just stun him. When he all ins it's in your face. He can't shadow away from you either, once he engages he's there 'til the end. Either he dies or you die.

Talon can't poke like Zed either. You actually have to watch your Mana since you use it very quickly if you use it for wave clearing or harassing. And while it does have wider range, it has shorter travel distance.

Talon's passive is significantly worse than Zed's too. Your only slow is on your rake, since that Cut Throat slow is insignificantly noticeable.

The only reason Talon feels stronger is because he's an AOE assassin. He can deal damage to you as you flee, or even when you're in a crowd. But other than that he's nothing special.

Zed isn't the perfect OP champ, but he does have significantly more strengths than other assassins. And you can argue his shadow cool down is high, but that's really all there is that makes him "hard". While the same goes for other champions. Obviously with every champion ever you have to watch what you do, and not be dumb about it.

Yer Not My Uncle3 votes

Except .. he really does take a lot of skill. You're Bronze 3. Granted I'm silver 2 this season so far, but if you watch Bjerg, or Faker actually play Zed, there's a lot more skill than just what you people assume there is. Talons point click all in insta burst dead. Zed requires shadow placements, actually hitting your abilities, and like I said, two items nullify his main source of damage.

Ratbert1 votes

Zhonyas nullifies any delayed damage. Nearly all damage is delayed.

Kosm1K1 votes

Black cleaver was great on talon before they changed it, that extra bit of armor pen was all you needed in order to melt enemies quicker, it was never about the armor shred, at least for me, Now I'll just get another ad heavy item, although black cleaver's passive armor shred actually activates once for each time rake and Talon's ult hits an enemy, so if you've got an ad heavy team, it wouldn't be a bad pick since you'd instantly lower the armor of some enemies by around 20% if you do it right, not to mention that talon's bleed from noxian diplomacy also gives more armor shred per tick.

KoKoboto1 votes

{quoted}

I also HATE Black Cleaver on Talon, I feel it is a huge noob trap. Its armor penetration effect ramps up over attacks, whereas with Talon you want your burst ASAP. Its 40 damage is also shit compared to other items you can get, especially when you look at his insane ratios.

BlackCleaver goes off ANY physical damage, meaning if you ult you will pow 30% for when blades come back in

Kosm1K1 votes

what kind of talon gets Vamp Scepter first? You always rush brutalizer with talon, because the enemy midlaner's early seeker's armguard will screw you up if you don't have the armor pen for it, plus the cd reduction is a nice bonus.

TomA3X1 votes

It's probably not a very good idea to balance a champion around a specific build path

XeroKimo1 votes

Meanwhile riven with a 4hp/5secs regen aka 0.8/sec or was it 0.7/sec aka 3.5/5sec

PerishSoftly1 votes

The difference there is that Riven has a self shield that scales off of AD with which to mitigate burst, sustained, or delayed damage. She also scales incredibly well with Ravenous Hydra as her Innate grants her a greater than 100% total AD scaling on her basic attacks, all of which is lifestolen. Riven doesn't scale on the same line that other champs do, her curve is closer to exponential in terms of damage.

Curling Veigar1 votes

yeah

Slamurai Jack1 votes

I feel like you should be glad if Zed goes cutlass first item. Yeah, it gives him sustain and a stronger all in, but his poke is far, far weaker than if he had decided to go brutalizer first. Honestly, Zed is really weak early, and is abusable by pretty much every ranged champion mid up until level 6, which coincidentally, is before he has lifesteal. So abuse that.

Ranishe1 votes

I'm curious what would happen if Zed lost damage on his q and e, but if he hits a target with multiple uses it does full damage (so 3 shuriken from ult, shadow and himself would do 3x damage instead of 2x). He'd lose some waveclear (without his shadow) and poke damage, but perhaps set the numbers so that if he hits with multiple abilities he does more than he does now (although that hardly seems needed...). It would also mean he does less damage if he chases really deep because he doesn't have his shadowed abilities helping.

Kariu Rena1 votes

The weakness of zed is picking zed

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Totally a fair point to make

WolfChases1 votes

I think Zed is currently fine since he's struggling in this tank meta somehow, especially with Urgot on the rift.

lDontLiftIcarry1 votes

zed should have riven tier base hp regen.

darkdill2 votes

Maybe not THAT low, but something more in the range of Katarina's last nerf.

lDontLiftIcarry1 votes

nope, THAT low. All no cost laners should have shit hp regen. End of discussion.

darkdill2 votes

Riven has super-low health regeneration because she has a spammable costless AD-scaling shield. Zed and Kat do not, so their health regeneration values are higher than Riven's.

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