Boards›Gameplay

how about bringing all the tanks to maokai and braum bar

Knight SoIaire ··3 votes·594 views

and ballancing the game from there? All of the tanks we have are outdated and cant realy use the resources they are provided (they dotn scale with gold, they dont scale with stats meaning that whatever you get you do the same thing unless you buy ap and die from a sneeze)

braum iand mao are new and both represent diferent way of being tanks, braum is an utility tank, he provides his team with tanking without competing to the dmg himself (he is a tank/support) maokai on the other hand forces enemies to hit him by being a brute, if you wont focus him he is a danger (atm he is op thou cause he can replenish his hp twice per tf) that you need to showe off

if we would get a good image of a tank you need to touch the champions unfortunately because items are fine, they just dont scale with them as good as they should, then we can work our way from that point to definign the impact that diferent types of damage(magic/physical, burst/sustained) should have on such durability

atm mainly used classes in the game are adc's (they are original in the concept, they provide sustained dmg meanign they are not gated by mana and quite dependable, simple purpose that every team needs),mages(assasins are getting roled out of the game because "counterplay"and "healthy playstyle" which in short means that lcs matches cant be played with sure kill champs), supports(lthis is acttualy a role not a type of champ but it sacrifices its selfish power to aid allies, there are casters here "lulu,blitz,thresh,nami, some more mage like than others" and tanks"braum leona")and fighter(s4's main change was bringing gold to jungle, before we had bruisers top but after jungle started bringing gold all tanks went out of the game cause bruisers kit are more diverse )

the tanks kinda fall out cause they became dull, if vi buys a warmog she gets a warmog, if naut buys a warmog he gets a warmog, if vi gets triforce she clales with it, if naut gets triforce he gets almoust nothing cause he does not scale with it

meanig that any champion can become a tank (ranged champs are less likely to be effective cause their base tankyness is cut as a compensation for being ranged), specialized tanks are not tanking much better than a bruiser who deals dmg while he is at it

we cant realy ballance the damage (the assasins problem) if we have no definition of what duraility is

i would like you to discusswhat you think about those roles atm

6 Comments

67chrome3 votes

braum iand mao are new and both represent diferent way of being tanks,

WUT.

Mao isn't new. He's been around for a long time. I'm pretty sure Twisted Treelines still seemed new when he was released, and that map has already been completly reworked. Maokai was also the tier 1 jungler for most of season 2. He was pretty much the Lucian of season 2 in that regard, dudes been around for a good while.

we cant realy ballance the damage (the assasins problem) if we have no definition of what duraility is

Damage and Defense are both close to 100% reliant on what items you grab.

If you go 50/50 damage/defense, you'll do reasonable damage and be reasonably tanky. If you go 100% damage, you'll do tons of damage but be increadibly squishy. If you go 100% defense, you'll be an immovable brick wall but deal almost no damage.

Which path you go for depends on how well a champion's kit interacts with those paths. If you have low-cooldown bursts unreliant on item scaling, mixed damage that makes item scaling impossible to use effectively in the first place, split AD/AP ratios, and free armor penetration, %HP damage, and/or true damage - tank heavy it is. That's Nasus, Darius, Warwick, Udyr.

Also, if you just bring a derp load of CC and utility you can be a massive asset by constantly cycling through that and applying it, which is where Braum and Maokai are effective tanks.

If you deal nothing but physical damage, have a lot of mobility, solid, low-risk wave clear/poke, an amazing burst of defensive mechanisims, and your damage output can get hard-countered with a single defensive item - you build glass cannon. That's Zed, Kha'Zix, Akali, Katarina.

If you have a decent mix of damage that still leans in a certain direction, along with ok CC and survival mechanisims, you'll probably want to trend towards 50/50.

Anyways - building damage is mostly about having the tools to live through unloading your damage payload. Having the right defense.

Building tank isn't so much about absorbing damage as it is being impossible to ignore despite not building damage. Sometimes that's still doing tons of damage with full tank, sometimes that's providing a bunch of CC and utility, in Nunu's case it's warding all the things and stealing your jungle.

A little counter-intuitive and awkward, but Kayle being invulnerable doesn't make her a tank, Nasus's infinity-damage boop over the head doesn't make him an assassin.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

Mao isn't new. He's been around for a long time. I'm pretty sure Twisted Treelines still seemed new when he was released, and that map has already been completly reworked. Maokai was also the tier 1 jungler for most of season 2. He was pretty much the Lucian of season 2 in that regard, dudes been around for a good while.

REWORKED KIT AND NEW NUMBERS (his w got changed quite much on the number side, sapling got a big change and the rather enormous change to his ult)

If you go 50/50 damage/defense, you'll do reasonable damage and be reasonably tanky. If you go 100% damage, you'll do tons of damage but be increadibly squishy. If you go 100% defense, you'll be an immovable brick wall but deal almost no damage.

zed with randuins omen might be reasonably tanky, the fact that he oneshots a another reasonably tanky guy means nothing ?

right now its not as clearly ballanced as you described (reasonably tanky guy might be able to outdamage much of his competitors) some bruiser can tap into the ofensive items while not losing on their durability or build defensively while still dealing a lot there is also the matter of sustain and healing (tanktrox and vlad) , tanks (old style tanks who dont have taunt)are durable but there is no reason to hit them, riot tried to use taunt as a way of making them viable but it failed (it worked as simple cc, a stun of some sort)

you just described is clearly mathematicaly but on the practical side there is much more factors to take into consideration (mobility,cc,sustain,range)

Also, if you just bring a derp load of CC and utility you can be a massive asset by constantly cycling through that and applying it, which is where Braum and Maokai are effective tanks.

both of them are able to lower the amount of the damage their team takes, braums cc is not insane (the passive is indeed interesting but he cant freely aply it to entire enemy team) nor maokais is (forgot to tell that the never the kit is the more overloaded it gets), but the fact that you cant kill a guy with 100 hp as far as he is close makes a diference

Building tank isn't so much about absorbing damage as it is being impossible to ignore despite not building damage.

this phrase is true but also problematic

bruiser with randuins and spirit visage is tanky, but you cant ignore him cause he can kill you, you need to remove this obstacle to get to the carry

tank with a thornmail is tanky, but he cant do anything to atract your attention and become a problem

braum solves the problem by not wanting your attention but just taking the damage on his (manly) chest without asking while maokai has good damage so you need to get rid of him if you want to proced to the carry

most of older tanks has nothing to make enemies hit them (besides 2 taunt tanks, one uses it to grind thornmail, while second uses it as a stun, riot already learned that taunt is not a way to bring tanks to the game) they have means of making enemies unable to atack but not to take their attention (if you cc someone he won thit you)

you described tanks mathematicaly, they go full defense so they have no offense which is logicaly right, but its not any bit true in gameplay, their durability needs a factor that will allow them to exploit it, the old tanks lack that and riot was searching for it for a long time thats usualy when having good base dmg kicks in (you are a threat just because your skills are strong but building dmg is not profitable for you cause your ratios suck) or a special braum like skill (you dont need to be a thread cause you absorb the damage that is aimed at your allies)

old tanks were never actualy working, the only reson why they were picked in s3 was the need of a jungler, but the jungle was unable to actualy sustain any champion who needed gold, thats where tanks kicked in, compared to other they were quite good while starved gold but they never provided anything special as champion class

Omnipherious1 votes

All of the tanks we have are outdated ... cant realy use the resources ... provided (... dotn scale with gold, ... stats)

That's a bit far-fetched; I will agree that some tanks are weaker. Tanks have different resources to fulfill different roles. Maokai and Braum seem really good now because the meta is about protection/peel. They are good at that, of course they'll be popular. Say we shifted more towards an initiator meta, Leona is super good for that.

<Wall of text> Summary: Braum & Maokai are good (too good?) at what they do. Tank role often phased out of competitive in favour of other roles. Tanks don't scale as well with items.

Is Braum good? Yes. Too good? I don't think so. Is Maokai good? Yes. Too good? Not since the ult was limited to 10s per use.

As for tanks being phased out / less popular than other roles, it is just a result of what people want to play. DOTA doesn't undergo drastic changes but people still see a bunch of team comps because the community wants to run different comps. Arguably, Sivir comps can still work if you want to do fast push / early-mid game strats; the difference just happens to be late game is favoured right now. Picks change based on what people want to play. With late game becoming a focus, we see more champions that scale well AND more champions that peak in the mid game who can punish them.

If the meta shifts to assassins / diving, we'll probably see a split of safer carries + aggressive front lines AND aggro carries + defensive frontline. Item pickups will also change as a result. If we're ever at a point where multiple AP champs are diving the backline past towers, we may very well see Ohmwrecker become a staple pickup.

It is debatable to say that Tanks don't scale well. Tanks could be scaling just fine and it is in fact Last Whisper / Void Staff that are overtuned. Maybe tank items are good enough, but the buildup isn't efficient enough for what is currently needed by the meta. Perhaps Fighters scale too well with tank items; is this a problem with Fighters or with Tanks? Should Tanks have more HP/AR/MR scaling abilities instead to differentiate them more from the AD/AP scaling Fighter class?

It is unfair to compare Nautilus to Vi. That's like comparing Veigar to Teemo; it doesn't work because they are meant to accomplish different things. Overall, I think the roles are relatively balanced right now, certainly more so that any other time I can remember. There may be select champions who are outliers, but that speaks to different issues.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

fact Last Whisper / Void Staff that are overtuned

the actual version of tuning those items is to make them penetrate 50% of BONUS resistance making them more powerfull vs full tanks

it is just a result of what people want to play

is thats why ppl always pick what is popular in lcs? ppl who want to play some specific thing usualy main a champ that represents it but most of the time ppl pick what is effective, bruiser is both a tank and a damage dealer with proper itemisation he is capable of shifting his role to suit his team

It is unfair to compare Nautilus to Vi. That's like comparing Veigar to Teemo

its fair to compare nautilius to vi or jarwan in terms of tankyness and the damage they can deal but its not fair to plainly say who is bettter as they are specialized for diferent thing, thats a fact if you compare teemo and veigar at single target burst veigar wins hard but if you compare vi and naut at tanking, vi wont be as durable as naut but she will force enemies to hit her or to run away from her instead of being ignored, being a tank is not just the matter of durability you said yourself, vi is able to atract enemy shots by being someone who needs to be killed in order to survive, naut will spamm cc cause there is no way for him to make enemies hit him

i just want to say that bruiser is able to be both a tank and a damage dealer while a full tank is locked to tanking only, and the old designed champions (naut) dont have tools to execute their role propertly most of old tanks have mainly insane cc (nauti, mumu)or insane utility (shen, alistar) to compensate for the fact that they get ignored and they dont realy soak up that damage like their main purpose is thats why i would like to see those old tanks to be updated to fit just like maokai and braum, because a proper tank brings insanely much to a teamcomp and the variations of teamcomps you can make, in the game at it is its not worth to put a tank in the game instead of a bruiser on diferent position than support

Omnipherious1 votes

penetrate 50% of BONUS resistance

If this were indeed the case, it would make tanks better and LW/VS better vs champs that build tanky, true. But if it is done, tank itemization would need to be looked at because presumably they are tuned to the current versions of LW/VS.

is thats why ppl always pick what is popular in lcs? ... most of the time ppl pick what is effective, bruiser is both a tank and a damage dealer with proper itemisation he is capable of shifting his role to suit his team

Yes, effectiveness + reliability is generally king for competitive. However, picks still change based on the comps people are currently running. There was a period recently where we weren't seeing Jarvan. That didn't mean that he wasn't effective, it just meant that players felt other champions fit into the comps better.

its fair to compare nautilius to vi or jarwan in terms of tankyness and the damage they can deal but its not fair to plainly say who is bettter as they are specialized for diferent thing, thats a fact

Except it isn't fair to compare them in terms of tank + damage because Nautilus is not meant to be highly damaging in the first place. A fair comparison would be Naut vs Ali vs Mao vs Galio. Those are fair comparisons because they are similar types of tanks. It is only fair to compare a bruiser that tanks to another bruiser. If you aren't comparing champions of similar roles, what their kits are specialized for is moot.

... but if you compare vi and naut at tanking, vi wont be as durable as naut but she will force enemies to hit her or to run away from her instead of being ignored, being a tank is not just the matter of durability you said yourself, vi is able to atract enemy shots by being someone who needs to be killed in order to survive, naut will spamm cc cause there is no way for him to make enemies hit him

This is comparing different types of threat, similar to previous part, it is unfair.

i just want to say that bruiser is able to be both a tank and a damage dealer while a full tank is locked to tanking only, and the old designed champions (naut) dont have tools to execute their role propertly

Yes, a bruiser can fill both roles but you absolutely cannot say that tanks don't have tools to execute their role properly. That much is untrue, it is your opinion. You are under the assumption that Nautilus needs to do comparable damage to a Fighter in order to be relevant. You need to look at what they are meant to do. Vi is meant to dive so yeah, she needs bit of durability but she does more damage than Naut because the reason you pick her is to dive. Naut isn't picked for damage, he is picked for the amount of utility he brings when compared to Vi. If he had damage on top of all his utility, you would never have a reason to pick Vi.

most of old tanks have mainly insane cc (nauti, mumu)or insane utility (shen, alistar) to compensate for the fact that they get ignored and they dont realy soak up that damage like their main purpose is ... thats why i would like to see those old tanks to be updated to fit just like maokai and braum, because a proper tank brings insanely much to a teamcomp and the variations of teamcomps you can make, in the game at it is its not worth to put a tank in the game instead of a bruiser on diferent position than support

There is a lot of bias here. There are different kinds of utility, some are more valuable than others at the moment because of popular picks. True tanks are meant to be a more support style though, if you want someone tanky that does damage you pick a bruiser. I'm not seeing what the issue you're having is. Fighters are seen in the top and jungle, some tanks too. Tanks also see play in support. How can you say it isn't worth it to pick tanks when tanks are seeing more play than ever before?

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

This is comparing different types of threat, similar to previous part, it is unfair.

its unfair for naut cause vi is a threat while naut uloads cc which is always of the same effectiveness whether you hit him or not, and naut alone cant have enought cc to stop entire enemy team for infinity

You are under the assumption that Nautilus needs to do comparable damage to a Fighter in order to be relevant.

this is where you dont understand me naut does not have to compare with vi in dmg, but he should have some way of forcing enemies to hit him because thats what tank is supposed to do, vi uses dmg to make ppl hit her, naut has notihng, riot gave him all this cc because they knew that naut wont be able to realy tank (so he stops enemies from atacking at all by use of cc, they had to give him something to be more than a minion), his shield is supposed to do this but usualy its enough tor naut to be tapped by some random aoe ability to lose the shield

if we assume that tanks role is to be hit, then naut is only doing his job when enemies will forcefuly make him do it, which is a bronze play the tank who does his job aka braum or maokai has a way of making enemies hit them (one does it by intercepting hits, the other does it by hitting hard) the tanks that are untouched from long time lack those tools that would allow them to make use of the items they buy

True tanks are meant to be a more support style though, if you want someone tanky that does damage you pick a bruiser.

man you rly cling to that damage i used the damage argument because damage is a tool that can be used to attain focus from enemies, they dont want to get hit by you so they hit you (and unlike naut who is not rewarded for building dmg a bruiser is able to get both tanky and dangerous, which makes him actualy use this tankyness he buys)

tanks should not get a damage steroid (i already see the teamcomps relyin on speeding up the tank to make him wreck) but a tool that would allow them to attain this focus (maokai actualy uses damage to do this , as i said its a tool for a tank), rammus and shen were an experiment with taunt which proven that this tool is not what they look for, now with braum we have the first tank tool that works (projectile block/intercept) and i would like riot to get into making tanks a thing (in past they were tanky cc unloaders instead of damage soakers)

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Knight SoIaire

manaless midlaners need a nerf NAOW
Gameplay105 comments
65
votes
MagikarpUsedFly
Gameplay42 comments
51
votes
Is anyone trully satisfied with rek'sai being a tank
Gameplay50 comments
51
votes
My personal take on tanks
Gameplay109 comments
51
votes
towers need a serious buff
Gameplay23 comments
41
votes
Champion identity
Gameplay76 comments
27
votes