[SUG] Thoughts on removing Warden's Mail

CoolKnightST··2 votes·576 views

This suggestion might come as a shock to you but hear me out. Lately I have a feeling armor item have been development as individuals and no longer as a whole anymore:

  • item 3068 waveclear item for tanks (mostly ap damage tanks like Malphite)
  • item 3742 engage item for juggernauts (like Darius)
  • item 3110 supportive armor item for tanks/supports (like Nautilus Braum)
  • item 3025 juggernaut onhit item (like Nasus)
  • item 3143 item designed to counter crit for tanks/supports/juggernauts/fighters/...
  • item 3075 item designed to counter marksmen for tanks (Rammus has it as core right now)
  • Other: item 3026 item 3047 item 3056 item 3050 item 3157 item 3512

The main issue I have right now is how all these items are linked together. Tanks have to decide what direction they want to go really early in the game. They can't really rely on factors:

  • item 1031 => item 3068 item 3742 item 3075 item 3026
    • item 2053 (item 3056 item 3512 )
  • item 3024 => item 3110 item 3050 item 3025
  • item 3082 => item 3143 item 3110

So as you can see is Warden's Mail the only direction that forces you into the decision starting from your first back. This has giving a lot of problems lately. They can't really be seen as situational items when the componements already decide their final move. With the removal of Warden's Mail I want to suggest the following changes:

#item 3024 Glacial Shroud

  • Recipe: item 1031 + item 1027 + 150
  • Recipe cost: 1200 gold
  • Stats: 40 Armor, 250 Mana
  • UNIQUE Passive: 10% Cooldown Reduction

#item 3025 Iceborn Gauntlet

Unchanged (combine cost is now 450)

#item 3050 Zeke's Harbinger

  • Recipe: item 3024 + item 1052 + item 1052 + 330
  • Recipe cost: 2400 gold
  • Stats: 40 Armor, 250 Mana, 50 Ability Power, 10% Cooldown Reduction
  • Passive & Active unchanged

#item 3143 Randuin's Omen

  • Recipe: item 1031 + item 1011 + 1100 (same as item 3742)
  • Recipe cost: 2900 gold
  • Stats: Unchanged
  • UNIQUE Passive – COLD STEEL: Removed
  • UNIQUE Active: Slows the movement & attackspeed of nearby enemy units by 25% for 3 seconds (60 second cooldown) (500 Range).

#item 3110 Frozen Heart

  • Recipe: item 1031 + item 3024 + 800
  • Recipe cost: 2800 gold
  • Stats: Unchanged
  • UNIQUE Aura: Unchanged

This will make the gap between tank & regular armor items bigger. The main tank item now get decided starting from 800 gold rather than 300 (basicly 2th back). This will give more room for item diversity and you no longer get pulled to a sideline that puts you in a static position. With attackspeed reduction been delayed to a later stage in the game. item 3110 on supports will gain more value. While item 3075 will forfill the role on the frontline. Last but not least is item 3143 that gives players the option between passive or active power (item 3742/item 3143) just like adc's have item 3094 item 3087. The gap between randiun & deadman is offcourse a lot bigger but I think it's worth trying.

Thoughts?

7 Comments

Critmaster Garen2 votes

i dont like the idea of the removal of the cold steel passive. it would essentially just be a nerf to randuins.

if anything, either a recipe change like this item 1031 + 200g -> item 3082 or putting cloth armor into the recipes of the other items and removing item 1031 instead would be much less messing around.

either way, i dont see a problem with the current recipe of randuins. depending on who im playing, its usually one of the other armor items first for me and then randuins as second or third item. there is nothing wrong with that.

CoolKnightST1 votes

The new function of randiun is countering crit. Mainly item 3087 users like Yasuo Gangplank Tryndamere and marksmen that all rely on these stats.

The function of countering attackspeed is for item 3075 & item 3110 for the moment.

Like mentioned before we still see item 3143 as an all-in one item despite the changes but we can't straight up nerf it since their lies not the issue. item 3082 exist since the béta. It's just doesn't fit the current item ballance anymore.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

The new function of randiun is countering crit. Mainly item 3087 users like Yasuo Gangplank Tryndamere and marksmen that all rely on these stats.

The function of countering attackspeed is for item 3075 & item 3110 for the moment.

Like mentioned before we still see item 3143 as an all-in one item despite the changes but we can't straight up nerf it since their lies not the issue. item 3082 exist since the béta. It's just doesn't fit the current item ballance anymore.

what about marksmen like Kalista and Vayne then who rely on attack speed more than crit?

the way i see it, randuins works like this for the same reason they changed thornmail. to give fighters and tanks defense against crit carries who rush item 3031, and on-hit/attack speed carries who deal damage with on-hit effects.

not everyone can fit frozen heart into his build. and thornmail is actually crap right now on everyone who isnt malphite or rammus.

CoolKnightST1 votes

That's where item 3075 is for.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

That's where item 3075 is for.

yea well. sorry, but the item is shit since the change. they seemed to have taken 600 armor malphite, and rammus with his w as a baseline to balance it for some reason.

i tried the item with 300 armor on garen against an ad heavy team and the damage return wasnt even there. ad carries still lifesteal through that with a bloodthirster and a mercurial. its practically useless. building a item 3068 as a second/third armor item has proven to be more useful to survive a carry or ad heavy teams than thornmail, since a mix of armor and health is more useful than just more armor. especially since item 3035 exists.

CoolKnightST1 votes

The problem has nothing todo with thornmail. It has more todo with not have a proper item to deal against lifesteal. Thornmail has never designed to be a lifesteal counter. In theory that job is for a Grievous Wounds item that current doesn't exist for tanks. It's also questionable if thornmail & GW in the same item set isn't to abusive. The real issue with grievous wounds for tanks is that it can be abused as dueling tool. Just think about a taunt champions like Rammus or Shen with this combination. That can give some ballance issues.

Actualy I believe item 3035 currently doesn't reduce the reflect damage from item 3075 since it's calculated before any armor reduction so even item 3071 wouldn't effect it.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

The problem has nothing todo with thornmail. It has more todo with not have a proper item to deal against lifesteal. Thornmail has never designed to be a lifesteal counter. In theory that job is for a Grievous Wounds item that current doesn't exist for tanks. It's also questionable if thornmail & GW in the same item set isn't to abusive. The real issue with grievous wounds for tanks is that it can be abused as dueling tool. Just think about a taunt champions like Rammus or Shen with this combination. That can give some ballance issues.

Actualy I believe item 3035 currently doesn't reduce the reflect damage from item 3075 since it's calculated before any armor reduction so even item 3071 wouldn't effect it.

item 3035 still cuts down the value of a item 3075 significantly. thats why even sunfire cape is better at defending against adc than a thornail. because you can have 55 armor from a thornmail after a last whisper upgrade, or you can have 27,5 armor and 500 hp. its just more slot efficient to go for the sunfire.

thornmail loses almost half its gold value due to % armor pen, while sunfire loses much less.

item 3071 affects the armor scaling portion on the passive by the way. so it does indeed reduce the damage return.

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