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Hexdrinker Vs Seekers Armguard AD Vs AP Mid

TTVSushiDevourer··25 votes·3,599 views

After learning a bit more about mid lane, a majority of you believe that AD mids have the advantage over AP due to item 3155. An AP mids option for armor seem very limited and thats where you bring in item 3191. It seems that item 3156 is a decent item with good stats and a wonderful passive. While item 3157 is a bit more expensive and doesn't seem like the best item to build first on an AP mid.

Early game item 3155 does cost 100 more at 1300 gold but i would assume that it is a buyable on first back. I assume the same for item 3191 which costs 1200. This is obviously dependent on jungler interaction with the lane. This is also assuming that the mid laners both farm and do not recieve any kills or assists. Obviously the match up does vary what will happen, but i am trying to focus on the items.

Once arriving from first back with both items i believe that item 3155 has the advantage, due to the fact that its passive is immediately online, unlike item 3191 which has to ramp up. item 3155 shield is a very strong passive early in the game, it prevents you from being bursted normally allowing you to win a trade or get out alive. item 3191 passive is not bad but like previously stated you need to secure 30 cs to obtain its full potential. Onceitem 3191 is done stacking it has 45 armor and 35 ap which seems very decent for a 1200 gold item.

How do you guys feel on the subject? I am not a mid main, nor do i prefer the role. Trying to take a neutral stance while inputing my opinion and would really like to learn more about the match up and if you all believe there is an obvious advantage for one of the items. This is all obviously a very static description and a game will rarely be based solely off items. Did my best to not be biased.

27 Comments

Aaravos17 votes

item 3191 is strong item 3155 is strong probably a bit too much.

item 3157 is fine where it is now, however its clear item 3156 is broken as it is.

item 3157 got nerfed for a good reason. Easily accesable Strong active with high offensive stats. Zed Talon had no chance to deal with a mage who had item 3157. The nerf was hard but justified.

item 3156 deserve the item 3157 threatment. Now item 3156 doing the same with most burst mages and ap assasins what item 3157 did with ad assasins. Cheap item with strong offensive and defensive stats. You get heavy defense against magic damage fromitem 3156 without real price. I saw an lck game (i rarely watching competitive game i find it boring for some reason so probably i am wrong and it just hapened in one game) where a 4/0 Syndra was unable to burst down a Corki who had item 3156. I think most burst orientated ap champion just can't deal with item 3156 what is the real problem and need to be adressed.

Ap items are not that bad as most player thinks (probably need some work), but the avaible anti ap/burst items for ad champions are too strong and the hp nerf on item 3053 will not solve it. item 3156 item 3139 item 3111 plus item 3190 from the support is give 120 mr and a strong shield and you are still viable as a damage dealer. mages/assasins/marksmans supposed to be squishy, but right now ad assasins and marksmans aren't at least against ap burst.

TTVSushiDevourer1 votes

I see you enjoy using the items as much as i do :D I agree with you. Thank you for the knowledge. Steraks is another item i'd like to touch on in a bit

5050BS3 votes

The other problem is that item 3155 and item 3156 AD scale with Attack Speed (something most burst ad champs have) While item 3157 AP is based on Spell casts. Most AP champs have a 3 cast combo and they are done till CDs reset while AD champs get their 3 cast combo + autos that keep coming.

This is in part why Heimerdinger is soo good with item 3157 because his Turrets are auto attacking with AP like a AD champ (its in part why he needs nerfs)

Voluug131 votes

Taking in count how pronounced are Heimer's match-ups, he doesnt need nerfs.

He needs melee assassins to understand the lane is Heimer's now, just like they get to do with 80% of the midlane rooster. Heimer is terrible at escaping and roaming.

YuGiHo3 votes

it gets even worse if you think of the other half if these items. For item 3157 its item 1058, very expensive. but for item 3155 its a cheap 2 item 1036 that combine into item 3134 that partially nullify the armor you got form the seekers, so ad getss better build paths for items that combine for an overall cheaper cost.

invisiblecat12 votes

More Zhonyas armor please T-T

WalkingInACircle2 votes

Part of the problem comes from hexdrinkers stats being a synergized defense of HP + mr, while seekers is pure armor. Makes it function better as an individual defensive item.

TTVSushiDevourer1 votes

Seekers also does have ap but i feel it is not the most substantial amount

Dar Raksada2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rage Thanatos,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xnk4rIG7,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-02-23T23:14:10.056+0000)

Seekers also does have ap but i feel it is not the most substantial amount

Pretty sure he means defensive stats, Hexdrinker gives hp (the shield is functionally hp against burst mages) as well as magic resist, magic resist and hp scale together to make the target much tougher than the raw armor provided by seekers.

TTVSushiDevourer3 votes

Gotcha, yeah but item 3155 is weaker than the old item 3155 so i can only imagine

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

But plenty of AP champions have shields or sustain that scales off AP giving them synergy for a fair bit of champions.

Stephenizgod2 votes

If we are talking which is more useful in what they are designed for, I would say item 3155 is better.

Its passive will save you from burst, which is probably why you are buying it, as well as lessening any damage due to its MR. It also gives you a fair amount of AD and it builds into an Item that is useful on literally any AD champ. item 3156 has good stats and a fantastic Passive specially against burst champions, so against a good amount of AP its never a bad idea to buy this item.

item 3191 on the other hand only lessens the damage due to Armor, but in no way protects you from dying. It does give you a small boost in damage, which then ramps up to be better, but this does take time and doesn't help you if you are losing. It also doesn't build into an Item that is useful on all AP champs, a lot of mid champions don't benefit from item 3157 active since for them it is most likely just delaying their death by 2.5 seconds.

WadeWilson13372 votes

Tbh the thing that pisses me off the most is the fact that Zhonyas costs so much more, yet its so much less efficient. Im not even going to talk about that ridiculous passive with lifesteal and such, the hexdrinker shield itself is comparable to zhonyas. What gets me is the fact Maw is CHEAPER, yet it gives you 10 more magic resist than zhonyas gets armor. However, if that isnt enough, you get 10 armor penetration. So now if you dont build zhonyas, youre going to get more holes in your body than an intoxicated girl at a rave party.

TTVSushiDevourer1 votes

Haha zhonyias is one of the best items in the game just for its active i feel. Allows you to combo off become untargetable and allows your team to rally onto you. I do agree that Maw is insanely broken atm it is only 250 gold difference however between item 3156 and item 3157 . But the build to the items heavily favor the AD i feel.

Totalis2 votes

I think item 3003 its very annoying item 3010 to type like this item 3009 would you assholes please stop item 3117? Reading just words with perhaps one of these item 1083 is fine, but having item 1056 to pause, look at the item item 1042 and think about the item for a second instead of just reading the word is FUCKING ANNOYING.

TTVSushiDevourer1 votes

I also think archangels is very annoying with catalyst. Swiftness would be assholes since they stopped Mobi's Perhaps one Cull per game is fine but having dorans makes me pause. Look at dagger for instance and think about the item, ITS FUCKING ANNOYING. Yours truly <3

5050BS1 votes

item 3003 item 3157 Are activate items.

item 3156 item 3053 are auto activated passives that give you shields so you can KEEP on attacking or running.

item 3040 lets you run but mages are typically slow and will get caught.

item 3157 You cant do anything and are not escaping, it only helps if you need 2.5s for a spell to come off CD but item 3053 item 3156 also give you time for things to come off CD.

Also item 3053 is good vs AP and AD and gives a small AD steroid for 8s.

If item 3157 Healed you for 25% of your missing HP while frozen and then for 8s after gave you a +15% base AP and +10% CDR we would be on the same page.

PiVoRx2 votes

Ive faced too many teams with 3+ item 3157 to say anything good related to it. Most cancerous item in the game.

FortisDominus1 votes

i agree

Creas2 votes

The thing is that item 3156 is 99.23% cost efficient without its passive. You basicly get the extra defense shield + attackspeed below 30% for free.item 3157 is only 87.86% cost efficient. You have to pay almost 500g just for the active. Its a good active but it will set you power back alot, while on item 3156 since its "active" is free you have that 500g to get more power.

Leu072 votes

The thing is, many mages need to buy some sort of mana sustain at their first back, the armguard just offers a slight chance of not dying to Zed, then mid game by tf you will have no sort of mana management. Zed can go straight to hexdrinker as his first item and it does not represent him any cons.

LoLKiru2 votes

Part of me wonders what would happen if it was changed so that Hexdrinker lost its passive until it became Maw (similar to how Seeker's Armguard doesn't have the zhonya's active)

Needlessly Large Rod could also probably use a good buildpath so you arn't stuck sitting on 1250 gold the entire time (maybe Amp Tome X2 + gold?)

Edit: An even more wild hypothetical scenario, would be doing the opposite and giving Seeker's Armguard the Zhonya's active.

TTVSushiDevourer1 votes

I don't think ad mids would ever get a kill lol

LoLKiru1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rage Thanatos,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xnk4rIG7,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2016-02-24T18:01:18.817+0000)

I don't think ad mids would ever get a kill lol

Yeah, the first situation of Hexdrinker losing its passive (until it became Maw) would be FAR more fair from a balance perspective.

Other situation was there simply for the interesting what-ifs

TTVSushiDevourer1 votes

What if they took away the shield, but added the lifesteal and attack speed passive of Maw to hexdrinker? They would still be burstable, but its a tad fairer

Nymeara1 votes

I feel like this topic misses a couple items like hexdrinker isn't the only option you also have qss and steraks while aps I think we can include rylais and haunting guide

TTVSushiDevourer3 votes

Was mainly trying to focus on the items mid laners usually buy against eachother early. I don't think we will see a zed or talon rushing to a qss :) Thank you though!

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