Hear Me Out Riot - Shyvana Armor Changes

The Yetii Rider··1 votes·460 views

So, we've got all these base stat changes and meh. Everyone gets +9 armor except supports who get +20. Fun and interactive stat stick garbage.

Moving on.

Shyvana is an interesting case. The champion isn't supposed to be strong in the early game. She's supposed to be a power farmer, and I know that's not something you're interested in supporting.

But

What about, instead of giving her a healthier early game clear, you instead take the opportunity to double down on Shyvana's power farming fantasy?

Don't give her +9 armor, and instead increase the amount of armor and MR she gains from slaying dragons by 5 each time.

Slaying one dragon will not put her on par with the previous armor, but will give her more MR than previous.

Slaying two dragons puts her slightly ahead.

And then she can continue to scale up.

It's on the Shyvana player to access this power, but it gives her a weaker early game and a stronger late game with counterplay and interaction, while incentivizing her to stop power farming and do something for her team at the same time!

11 Comments

Dark Nephthys1 votes

No because Shyvana needs that extra armor and forcing her to rely on getting dragons would make her super feast or famine with dragon control. She doesn't have any sustain and even in live server right now, she can get beat up a decent amount in the jungle. Obviously she can clear the jungle fine right now and at a decent speed, but currently she does lose a decent amount of health to do it.

Making her lose that 9 armor would be huge for her since she really needs to be able to clear that jungle to be what she is....a power farmer, since her ganks are very bad and relies solely on your laners having strong CC or the enemy super pushed with no vision. Hell, she is one of the only junglers that is seen grabbing summoner 3 just so her ganks can be useful. If you reduce her armor, then she'll lose even more HP in the jungle which makes her to low to gank and even reduces her efficiency at doing what she is meant to do and that is farm the jungle.

It would also kill her chances at taking early dragons as well. On live, she can do the dragon at level 3 with item 1041 + 1-2 health potions and barely surviving it. At least for me, I could be using the wrong runes or maybe it did require me all 3, idk it's been a while and maybe others can do it at level 2. Either way, taking early dragons is suppose to be what she is also made for because of her theme and passive, which would take a huge hit without that 9 armor.

And then there is the fact that it'll hurt Top lane Shyvana even more and as some one who has been playing her top lane since Season 3...I don't want to see her get hit up there again, it's already annoying enough playing her top lane in this meta. I hope the new runes can make her life a little easier up there.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Remember that machete is being changed to give 15% AS, that will be huge to help Shyvana's clear speed. She actually might be too powerful with the AS buff combined with her current armor.

As for top lane, fuck top Shyv. She's a jungler, she's got no sustain so why would she function at all in top.

Dark Nephthys1 votes

How exactly would that make her to powerful with the AS buff considering that everyone else who starts item 1041 will also get it? Speaking of that, every one is getting AD/Armor (besides for Mages/Supports) so why should she not get it? You also mentioned how she should be weaker early and use dragons to scale up, yet you want her armor to not be increased which makes her taking dragons much harder early. Even trying to take dragons early is to risky since she is generally barely killing it early and is easy for the enemy jungler to just walk around that area and finish off you and the dragon since both of you are low.

Because of that, people wouldn't really try to take that early dragon unless they saw the enemy jungler top lane or enemy bot lane recalled. That would further delay her armor scaling even more and make it harder for her. Plus when you finally do start getting dragon control, you need 2 dragons just to obtain the same amount of extra armor that basically every other jungler (and almost champion) got.

What happens if you get behind? Enemy mid laner/bot is roaming with their jungler and constantly counter jungling/killing you or if the enemy team is more a head so they get first chance at dragon. Then you're just kind of "eh" as you try to catch up. Yes every jungler can suffer those situations and be put behind, but no other champion but for Kindred is dependent on farming certain monsters just to catch up and gain power that was taken out of their kit and put into it.

Also who cares that she is a jungler, she can and should still be able to go top lane. She is a strong duelist that can win against a lot of people 1v1, great champion for summoner 12, great split pusher. Can do very well as bruiser or tank, and can function on a lone island in a 1v1 lane pretty well. Not every top laner has sustain, and champions are played in their "not really intended" roles all the time...Hell Ekko who was meant to be a mid lane assassin is now getting balance changes to help him jungle.

Besides she was top lane meta for basically an entire season (I believe it was season 5). Just because with her changes and changes around the jungle, doesn't mean that she should be "kicked" out of top lane and shouldn't be played there. It's the same thing for Mid lane Morgana, yes she does better as a support but she used to be played mid lane and is still considered a mid lane mage who has the right to be played there.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XjZHAWgE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-11T22:16:57.785+0000)

What happens if you get behind?

It should be easy for a late game hyperscaling champion to fall behind. Have we forgotten this? Champions that are powerful in the late game like Nasus Veigar Shyvana Jax Tristana MasterYi should all be able to lose the game well before they hit their power spikes. If you are choosing to play a late-game champion, there should be a certain percentage of games where you as a player feel like and genuinely do contribute nothing because the opponents played well and ran your team over before you were useful.

Dark Nephthys1 votes

And yet (besides for MasterYi ) everyone else on that list but for Shyvana can at least offer something if they're behind. Veigar has a large aoe stun and large execute damage, Tristana (like most ADCs now) never have a mid game since they basically late game with 2 items now...Nasus might not offer as much as the rest but still has a strong slow/AS slow and shreds tanks armor + one of the best champions at taking turrets thanks to Q. Mean while...Shyvana has no CC (outside slows from items), no sustain and only one real way to get to a target which after that dash from her ult, any slow/CC and she just becomes easy to kite and deal with.

Picking Shyvana already puts your team in a weird state since the enemy jungler knows that Shyvana's ganks wont be better then theirs UNLESS the laners are way to over-extended or heavy amounts of CC in the lane. Knowing that would give the enemy jungler a strong window when they already hold more pressure and the only thing Shyvana can do is farm her jungle, or wait until the enemy jungler is seen and steal a camp or take dragon. It's kind of like when your jungler is some one who needs their level 6 to really gank like Nocturne and the enemy jungler is Elise who can gank and be useful as early as level 2. If you reduce Shyvana's effectiveness at the only thing she really can do (farm the jungle) then she would feel like she can't do anything.

Also you mentioned hyperscaling and late game, but really...how often does the game even go past 30 mins now? Most games are ending at around the 30 minute mark and with all these changes and damage being possibly even stronger, games potentially is going to get even shorter. And if the game even does go past 30 minutes, what does she really offer that other fighters can't like XinZhao for example. And no, don't even say that Shyvana is an infinite scaling champion because her stacks only apply to elemental dragons and doesn't apply to Elder. So at best she'll get like 4 Dragons in a good game...maybe 5 if you were to take it at level 2-3 and then every time it respawns instantly.

Shyvana needs that armor to really compete, and even Riot agreed that she needs armor. I believe her Armor was buffed earlier this patch and in the patch notes even said "Shyvana was getting to beat up by jungle camps to compete with others" or something like that. Sure it wasn't a lot of armor but it was given to her and now the runes are getting removed so she would need that armor or she'll be in an even worse state then back then if she doesn't get it.

Besides No one knows how everything will effect champions. Maybe she might become insanely broken, or maybe the new runes won't really benefit her as heavily as it does other champions and she falls behind, no one knows until it comes out. If she becomes to strong, then they'll lower down some armor or damage or something but they won't know until everything hits live. This is the preseason after all, let Riot test all the changes to everyone first before trying to ask/demand her armor to be removed.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

"Shyvana has no CC"

Shyvana has a displacement effect on her ultimate.

Dark Nephthys1 votes

That's barely any form of CC, and it's not any form of CC that gives her any advantage or lock down on a target since she is in her jump animation while it's going off, so by the time she gets back on the ground and able to attack, the target is not "CC'd" anymore. Plus the only time it actually makes any amount of impact on what it does, is if you are point blank on them, otherwise it barely touches them. So the only useful thing about it would be to stop channel abilities or summoner 12.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

If you think about it in a 1v1 situation, yes. If you think about it in the context of the actual game, it peels people away from primary targets on your team, it can cause people to flash at awkward angles or you can pull someone into an AOE effect like Amumu's Curse of the Sad Mummy. Shyvana's Dragon's Descent has very many applications, you just have to be clever and cooperate with your team to pull them off.

Dark Nephthys1 votes

That's true but in most cases, she is used as either a split pusher which generally fights in 1v1 instances (or 1v2, 1v3 etc) or used to dive their back line which is away from your carries and generally towards their carries. Though obviously you don't have to play it that way and you could peel for your carries, but even in those cases the statement still stands that the displacement is really only strong or useful if you did it point blank so you could have them travel with you, otherwise you'd only displace them for like less then a second.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XjZHAWgE,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-12T23:53:45.586+0000)

That's true but in most cases, she is used as either a split pusher which generally fights in 1v1 instances (or 1v2, 1v3 etc) or used to dive their back line which is away from your carries and generally towards their carries. Though obviously you don't have to play it that way and you could peel for your carries, but even in those cases the statement still stands that the displacement is really only strong or useful if you did it point blank so you could have them travel with you, otherwise you'd only displace them for like less then a second.

Yes, she is a diver. She is much better as a team fighter than as a split pusher. This is why you don't see her get played top. She's a far better jungler who builds up defenses with her passive, builds up offenses with her items, and goes after people.

Dark Nephthys1 votes

I'll agree that she is much better played as a jungler but that she can still be played top. It's like with Corki being mostly played mid lane now but he can still function pretty fairly as an ADC bot, though the only cases that picking him ADC is a good idea is if you are lacking magic damage.

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