Riot games and Gragas E

Ben Sharpio·Jul 28, 2017·32 votes·1,872 views

https://clips.twitch.tv/IronicKawaiiNikudonCoolCat

Can you guys at least pretend that you care about gragas E being so blatantly stupid with its hitbox?

27 Comments

Akali is SO HOTJul 28, 20175 votes

Gut him asap

Pendergast891Jul 28, 20179 votes

Haven't you scene his model? There's no more gut to give to him.

Wet DrymanJul 28, 20173 votes

They do not care, in the past I created some posts reporting this hitbox and some unusual stuff happening with this spell (of course I provided videos) and no one cared. I saw also some other posts about this matter so I linked these videos too, still no response from Rioters.

6KEMBE4ORBAJul 28, 20172 votes

Gragas needs nerfs:

to lose his E knockup
lose %dmg on his W and maybe the splash dmg.

Broken overloaded champ left basically untouched.

TequilaZombieJul 28, 201714 votes

After that Gragas would become useless. Riot wants him to be a brawler, not a long range mage anymore.

He could very well use a full VGU. Or at least a new Q that fits the champion.

Wet DrymanJul 28, 20172 votes

What is not fitting in Gragas Q? This spell makes him a unique champion with ability to do combos that any other champion can't do, removing Q is removing these from the game. It is intended mechanic and for the sake of it his Q gained a "cooking" mechanic.

Range on his Q was reduced after his rework and to make use of his kit he still needs to go in melee range unlike old Grag who used his E always to run away while doing his job with just Q and R, his brawler, non artillery theme is intact besides that his Q lets him have a fallback pattern, something that many modern Tanks (Galio, Sion) or some Bruisers have.

For me all they need to do is relook him as a Fighter, it was his intended playstyle after rework, not Tank. Just minirework him like Singed or Rek'Sai for example by removing CC, reducing base damage and giving him more scallings.

Asayake 5150glowJul 28, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deafsinger,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XgyPNHtA,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-07-28T18:19:19.704+0000)

What is not fitting in Gragas Q? This spell makes him a unique champion with ability to do combos that any other champion can't do, removing Q is removing these from the game. It is intended mechanic and for the sake of it his Q gained a "cooking" mechanic.

Range on his Q was reduced after his rework and to make use of his kit he still needs to go in melee range unlike old Grag who used his E always to run away while doing his job with just Q and R, his brawler, non artillery theme is intact besides that his Q lets him have a fallback pattern, something that many modern Tanks (Galio, Sion) or some Bruisers have.

For me all they need to do is relook him as a Fighter, it was his intended playstyle after rework, not Tank. Just minirework him like Singed or Rek'Sai for example by removing CC, reducing base damage and giving him more scallings.

I think reducing bases should be enough, his scalings are already decent but just don't see much use since he's got enough damage with tank items.

Wet DrymanJul 28, 20171 votes

Well his kit is Burst oriented so scallings seemed like a good idea to me. Another option if he would be underwhelming is buffing his cooldowns, he won't have as much (if any hard CC besides his ult) so he might use his spells more frequently as it would be just damage. Other option is inreasing his tankiness if his damage would be lacking.

Keep in mind that with all the tools he currently has his builds are earning from 48% to 51% win rate with different pick rate. Loosing base damage and CC without compensations would make him even worse than Azir, he needs compensations for that.

Asayake 5150glowJul 29, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deafsinger,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XgyPNHtA,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-28T19:32:39.563+0000)

Well his kit is Burst oriented so scallings seemed like a good idea to me. Another option if he would be underwhelming is buffing his cooldowns, he won't have as much (if any hard CC besides his ult) so he might use his spells more frequently as it would be just damage. Other option is inreasing his tankiness if his damage would be lacking.

His Q and W are basically all just damage and tankiness on W (and passive procs), so his damage isn't lacking. I don't want to buff his scalings since they're already pretty good. Buffing his CD's won't be necessary, because they're also already pretty good.

Keep in mind that with all the tools he currently has his builds are earning from 48% to 51% win rate with different pick rate. Loosing base damage and CC without compensations would make him even worse than Azir, he needs compensations for that.

It's either just losing base damage, or losing CC slightly (E would be changed into a root or something not as good as it is right now), base damage, and slight scaling increase. Buffs I think would go to mana problems, but Gragas is a fairly difficult champion for a tank. Otherwise, his early game W cooldown could be buffed as a way to increase his tankiness and damage without making him do too much damage (Q spam really sucks to play against, although hopefully the base damage nerfs will make instant cast barrels hurt a lot less) or have too much CC (constant E's). His lategame cooldowns seem pretty good to me already.

Wet DrymanJul 30, 20171 votes

So in your opinion it's either reducing his CC or reducing his base damage, right? If so I'm all for reducing CC because it is the core problem of current Gragas - he disrupts with E+flash better and more reliable than Malphite's ult and it makes for most toplaners any interaction with him impossible because he will just cancel your gapcloser with his, load his combo on you while you're CCed and then he will retreat while you're slowed with Q.

It would make him less of a balance problem and it would push him into his original desired role (Fighter can't have CC, especially hard CC on most of his spells). For me it's either E knockback that should stay for skill ceiling sake (Gragas needs to take that distance into consideration when he wants do R into cooked Q combo) or change E to just slow, it would make R into Q combo a bit easier but it's not like most Gragases are doing this anyway so more reliability would attract players to do that, besides it would eliminate dash cancelling. Q should not slow or at least not on instant cast and the only hard CC should be ult, it would be probably the only ult in Diver roster besides Lee that needs a little more thinking than hit valuable target with point and click (ekh ekh Vi).

Asayake 5150glowJul 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deafsinger,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XgyPNHtA,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-30T11:32:16.218+0000)

So in your opinion it's either reducing his CC or reducing his base damage, right? If so I'm all for reducing CC because it is the core problem of current Gragas - he disrupts with E+flash better and more reliable than Malphite's ult and it makes for most toplaners any interaction with him impossible because he will just cancel your gapcloser with his, load his combo on you while you're CCed and then he will retreat while you're slowed with Q.

It would make him less of a balance problem and it would push him into his original desired role (Fighter can't have CC, especially hard CC on most of his spells). For me it's either E knockback that should stay for skill ceiling sake (Gragas needs to take that distance into consideration when he wants do R into cooked Q combo) or change E to just slow, it would make R into Q combo a bit easier but it's not like most Gragases are doing this anyway so more reliability would attract players to do that, besides it would eliminate dash cancelling. Q should not slow or at least not on instant cast and the only hard CC should be ult, it would be probably the only ult in Diver roster besides Lee that needs a little more thinking than hit valuable target with point and click (ekh ekh Vi).

No, he needs base damage nerfs, period. They're just way too good, better than those of any juggernaut, tank, bruiser, or mage. Especially the instant cast Q. Keeping some CC on his E wouldn't be terrible, but just not the knockup it is right now. A mere stun should be fine (doesn't stop dashes).

TequilaZombieJul 28, 20171 votes

Gragas' Q offers some pretty cool combos that require a shitload of skill. This is a good and a bad thing.

While some room to go wrong is a great thing to add to a champion, setting the bar too high makes a champion either be balanced around missing the combo, which makes hitting the combo way too punishing, or he's balanced around something that won't happen way too often, making the champion lackluster.

For me all they need to do is relook him as a Fighter, it was his intended playstyle after rework, not Tank.

And this is the very reason why I suggested taking a look on his Q.

His W gives him some damage and a reason to be on melee range. His E makes getting into melee range a more rewarding experience, as well as a easier one. His Ult works just like Xin's, with the trade off between range and self buffs.

His Q is the only skill which does not fit a Fighter, with his Ult being arguably more of a Vanguard kind of skill. Some extra incentive to be on melee range on his Q would make him a full fledged fighter.

Example of new Fighter-esque Q that allows some ranged fun:

Q - Barrel Throw

Gragas throws his barrel in a straight line that stops at the first enemy champion/large monster hit, damaging everything on it's path. Uppon colliding with an enemy champion/large monster, the casket breaks, leaving the target covered in booze. Booze covered champions are slowed for the next X seconds. Gragas' auto attacks and abilities that hit Booze Covered enemies extend the slow by 1 second to a limit of X seconds and deal an aditional X damage.

It's a somewhat simple ability that I developed on the fly, but something with the "ranged attack that gives melee attacks a buff" pattern would already give Gragas enough incentive to be a Fighter. Keeping up with his theme is just a matter of flavour.

6KEMBE4ORBAJul 28, 20172 votes

He has too much utility for the dmg/tankiness he has. Quite similar to the broken Zac.

Needs immediate toning down and not cookie-cutter small nerfs.

Mecha IncognitoJul 28, 20173 votes

Nah I think his kit is actually really nice as it is. It's really just his E hit box is too forgiving, and maybe some numbers are too good (probably just his W). But I think his kit offers pretty good counterplay, allows him to make various combos and is fairly thematic (especially the W, i love that he gets a lil more drunk and feels a little less pain).

Wet DrymanJul 28, 20176 votes

His E base damage should be nerfed in my honest opinion. It's 280 damage currently and CD reduction is so dumb that some Gragas players go Full Tank with CDR runes and E max way, it makes any interaction with him impossible for melee matchups while he still deals enormous damage with it.

Mecha IncognitoJul 28, 20175 votes

That's fair. In fact, maybe that's a lot better than lowering his W damage. Atleast to W he has to be in melee range and it has a wind up (which usually means an auto attack was wasted to get an empowered one, something to consider in overall damage).

Didn't know it went up to 280 damage either, does seem a tad high.

Wet DrymanJul 28, 20172 votes

And with 40-45% CDR his E has like 4 seconds cooldown due to it being reduced by 2 seconds if he hits someone. I think this spell should be hit because it has the least counterplay in his kit. W can be easily kited or it can be canceled by using hard CC on him so its power is fine for counterplay it has and mitigating that weakness by E usage can be less punishing by simply nerfing E that is out of line anyway.

Mecha IncognitoJul 28, 20171 votes

I don't think it's cooldown is too much of a problem, I'm personally in favour of dashes that reduce cd when used aggressively instead of defensively.

I think the feeling of no counterplay is entirely from the hitbox, you can feel like you definitely walked out of it and still get hit. Too generous considering how well it works with flash.

BlåbæretJul 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

After that Gragas would become useless. Riot wants him to be a brawler, not a long range mage anymore.

He could very well use a full VGU. Or at least a new Q that fits the champion.

Nah, no VGU. Just nerfs.