What is the purpose of calculating the win ratio for draft games?

Neosphoros·Jan 20, 2019·1 votes·1,696 views

What is the purpose of calculating the win ratio for draft games if system not even trying to select equal good players in oposite teams? In theory it should suggest how good we are... how often we are able to win our games... and this is all about theory...

https://i.ibb.co/BC4b5q1/lig.jpg

...however, if someone would like to say that such a situation is variable then it will be possible to say that the system would aim for a balance of 50%, and the win ratio is not a rating of our game but the rating of the system itself and how often this system can manage properly (or not) match players .

...but if somebody will try to say "that is not like that and players are slected by similiar MMR" then it will be ask - how it is possible if players are represent 3 absolutely differnet skill level divisions? Is that mean that "gold, silver, bronze, iron, platinum, diamont" is not more than a "name/word" and those words are only sort players?

19 Comments

BigFBearJan 20, 20191 votes

Why you guys don't understand that matches are calculated by HIDDEN MMR?! Hidden MMR is your real skill.

Also you can't get demoted before you hit 3(?) Tier of the next lower division. So if you are Silver 4 -> 0 points you can lose and lose but will not demote UNTILL your hidden MMR is Bronze 3.

That means you can have Silver 4 Player in your Bronze 3 games because their hidden MMR is Bronze 3. But you can also win SO much games one after another, that your MMR climbs faster than your real ELO. So it can happen that you are Bronze 3 but your hidden MMR is Bronze 1 already. You can even skip Tiers. If you win so much it can happen that your MMR is so far ahead that your real Elo jumps from Silver 4 to Silver 2 after Promos because your hidden MMR was Silver 1 already.

Now it can happen that there is a real bad Silver 4 player in a Bronze 3 game (because he is on a losing streak and his hidden MMR is Bronze 3). And then there is a Iron 2 Smurf account who is only winning. So his MMR is climbing very fasr and already hit Bronze 3.

So that's why there is a Silver 4 and an Iron 2 player in the same game. But both of them have the same HIDDEN MMR!

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NeosphorosJan 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Why you guys don't understand that matches are calculated by HIDDEN MMR?! Hidden MMR is your real skill.

Also you can't get demoted before you hit 3(?) Tier of the next lower division. So if you are Silver 4 -> 0 points you can lose and lose but will not demote UNTILL your hidden MMR is Bronze 3.

That means you can have Silver 4 Player in your Bronze 3 games because their hidden MMR is Bronze 3.

In theory divisions are represent skill level, so let we try to simplify it little a bit and let we asign specific number as a specific skill power value (MMR):

iron = 1 bronze = 2 silver = 3 gold = 4

...so from my game it will be:

my team = 3 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 3 = 11 enemy team = 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 = 14

11 <> 14

BigFBearJan 21, 20191 votes

[deleted]

NeosphorosJan 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

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Because in other way it make no sense - if division you placed in it is not relevant to MMR you have. But if your MMR when you are in Iron is the same as MMR player in silver - the system is F up !

SirrkasJan 22, 20191 votes

You forgot something very important. You are talking about a normal right? Normal MMR and Ranked MMR are not the same. That means, you could have Faker on your server. He is placed very high in rankeds and usually plays against Masters and Challengers.

But when he decides, he plays normals only to test questionable builds while he is drunk, he could have silver MMR in Normal. Then op.gg shows you, you got a Challenger in your team, but he plays like silver in normals. That means, regarding his "skill power value" you use, he would be a 3, not an 8. Even though, he could play like an 8, if he really wants to. He just never does in normals. That is why his rating is so low there.

Same goes for the players in your game. When your lux allways tries her best in normals, she probably has a rating, similar to her rankeds in normals. If the Zed however, just tries around, doesn't pay that much attention and generally not plays the champs he is good with, he could still have silver MMR for Rankeds but has Bronze MMR for Normals.

NeosphorosJan 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You forgot something very important. You are talking about a normal right? Normal MMR and Ranked MMR are not the same. That means, you could have Faker on your server. He is placed very high in rankeds and usually plays against Masters and Challengers.

But when he decides, he plays normals only to test questionable builds while he is drunk, he could have silver MMR in Normal. Then op.gg shows you, you got a Challenger in your team, but he plays like silver in normals. That means, regarding his "skill power value" you use, he would be a 3, not an 8. Even though, he could play like an 8, if he really wants to. He just never does in normals. That is why his rating is so low there.

Same goes for the players in your game. When your lux allways tries her best in normals, she probably has a rating, similar to her rankeds in normals. If the Zed however, just tries around, doesn't pay that much attention and generally not plays the champs he is good with, he could still have silver MMR for Rankeds but has Bronze MMR for Normals.

I am surprised by how far people can not read with understanding and can not logically think.

Read once again thread title...

So... if the teams are created by completely randomized rules in draft game... why our winrate are evaluated? In that way winrate is not (can not be) a our win % indicator - so it make no sense itself, but if so... draft games should be placed in Training mode if players not represent same skill level.

NeosphorosJan 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

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Is the players like this one should not be banned on board for trolling?

Everyone knows that MMR is hidden... so "hidden" MMR shown op.gg is fake... so if BigFBearis using this information as a proof for his argument this is a sign of trolling.

ModJikkerJan 21, 20191 votes

I've removed the unnecessary edit you added in. Please do not shame others based on their rank and skill.

[poppy-wink]

BigFBearJan 21, 20191 votes

That edit was in NO way insulting! I just tryed to explain him that he was the player with the lowest MMR in that match. A "bad" silver 4 player can matched with a "good" Iron 1 player. I used the original numbers from his link.

That has nothing to do with rank shaming. How else shall i explain it?? He is Iron 4 MMR and was asking why he is playing vs Irons. So it is rank shaming when i use these facts to explain it? lol. I haven't expressed any disparagement. Only when he called me a troll for whatever reason i said that he will never climb if he blames others for his situation.

NeosphorosJan 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

That edit was in NO way insulting! I just tryed to explain him that he was the player with the lowest MMR in that match. A "bad" silver 4 player can matched with a "good" Iron 1 player. I used the original numbers from his link.

That has nothing to do with rank shaming. How else shall i explain it?? He is Iron 4 MMR and was asking why he is playing vs Irons. So it is rank shaming when i use these facts to explain it? lol. I haven't expressed any disparagement. Only when he called me a troll for whatever reason i said that he will never climb if he blames others for his situation.

Lets look at game stats: my team top 2/11/9 jg 13/9/8 mid 12/6/8 adc 5/12/13 sup (me) 6/5/13

...are you trying to say that my "low MMR" coming from good stats? ...or it may comes from wrong player selection to my team and maybe because of that I'm losing games?

ModJikkerJan 21, 20191 votes

You said "You are the bad silver 4 player". That is getting into rank shaming. It wasn't necessary and your original post was more than enough to explain the situation.

BigFBearJan 22, 20191 votes

Dude you have to read the whole post and put it in context and shouldn't just look for key words. I said something like "if there is a bad silver 4 player (in terms of losing streak) and a good Iron 1 player (on winning streak) then they can get matched together. In this case you are the bad Silver 4 player..." I just meant that in terms of his MMR. What have it to do with rank shaming? If your MMR is way below your current Elo than you are per definition "to bad" for your current Elo and will be demoted.

Rankshaming is if I would say something like "lol you are worthless because you are a silver noob"

Rank shaming isn't "if your hidden MMR is below silver you are to bad for gold"

Well anyway. I don't really care but that wasn't meant as shaming.

But he didn't understand anyway and just searched for cheap excuses instead of try to improve. So nvm.

ModJikkerJan 22, 20191 votes

If I have misread it, I do apologize, but there isn't a reason as I can see to bring up the OP's rank in such a way which is why it appeared to be edging towards rank shaming. If that was not your intention, again, I apologize.

Either way, I opted to edit to give you benefit of the doubt. Edits don't count against you or your record of violations.

SirrkasJan 22, 20191 votes

Just to note. The hidden MMR is the Elo. I think you mean something alonge placement, when you talk about Elo?

BigFBearJan 22, 20191 votes

Yes, sorry

SirrkasJan 22, 20191 votes

No problem. Just wanted to be sure. Saw a few guys, mixing up Elo and placement lately.

Highvoltage999Jan 20, 20191 votes

Notice how lux and ww did the best (hard to calculate how well a support does) as low ranks, and the s3 fiora did the worst as the highest rank.

I went 16-3 before and play with 3 plats as a gold 3. (Went from gold 4 0 lp to gold 3 promos to gold 2). It makes sense because the game would be holding me back.

Also the placement games usually give people iron even if they are high ELO and they have to climb high

NeosphorosJan 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Notice how lux and ww did the best (hard to calculate how well a support does) as low ranks, and the s3 fiora did the worst as the highest rank.

So... it only suggest that system is... broken.

mid bronze 2 is better than silver 4

jg iron 1 is better than silver 4

So it means that:

MMR is not working properly becouse system can not assess in right way our skills

in every division there are HIGH MMR and LOW MMR players and division level is not realy matter

Highvoltage999Jan 20, 20191 votes

Your Leona build can be worked on as well [slayer-jinx-catface]