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@Meddler, does Rylais really need an entire 40% slow?

Malicious Metal··25 votes·1,877 views

I remember its original iteration with just a decent 15% slow. It did just what it was supposed to do; Provide a tanky defensive option for mages with an additional slow to kite or chase.

Now the slow's more than DOUBLE the amount, which leads to heavy abuse cases. A frequently applied 15% slow wasn't inescapable and the item itself didn't provide as much AP to make you unable to escape once they slowed you.

So why do we need Rylais to have a HEAVY slow? it was never meant to provide this much utility in form of an item.

Now, some champions might require some changes when Rylais gets a weaker slow but holy cow do we need to cut down the slow amount. Melee champions and immobile ones of any kind are being royally screwed just because the enemy bought an item with a constant 40% slow, that doesn't even impair their ability to kill you.

15% slow would be bearable and totally fine, 40% is just too easily abused.

56 Comments

GULAG 4 U6 votes

@God, why does MM post so much about item 3116s?

Jk we know why

Malicious Metal11 votes

Because it becomes a bloody arms race on who can outstat you with slows faster.

Can we actually balance champions without having to keep in mind that they can just slap a 40% slow on every single ability? coughCassiopeia Viktor Azir Ryze cough

I just want to be able to actually move and be able to close the gap as a melee.

Morde needing it is a heavy point too but he'd totally work with a 15% slow if he'd get more base stats. Heck it'll become an actual OPTION if he had decent MS and HP so it would finally break this abusive relationship he has with it.

HazyCloud71 votes

Can we actually balance champions without having to keep in mind that they can just slap a 40% slow on every single ability?

And why doesn't this also apply to Mordekaiser? Why can't they balance him without providing him with an item that gives him a slow on every single ability?

I'd have more respect for this post if it advocated just deleting the item and balancing each champion's kit with compensation buffs accordingly instead of just looking out for your own champion. Because a 15% slow would make it non-viable for every mage anyway.

Malicious Metal3 votes

Read my post again.

A 15% slow would allow him to get better bases, making him not rely on it as much. He could go Gunblade, Protobelt or other items too if he valued their stats and actives more.

He actually feels like shit to play until you get Rylais so having an actual champ would be kinda neat.

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

Frankly, I've felt Mordekaiser to be garbage to play ever since they sneezed on the napkin they wrote his new W down on.

What the hell is it? Why is it?

Anyway, Rylai with 20% slow or 15% slow would be fine.

Lauchmelder1 votes

On the other hand we can't just rework Rylais to only suit Mordekaiser (which actually looks like you want to happen). Azir right now is so weak that Rylais on him is literally the only way to be even in lane.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I know, I'm just kidding with you.

Irelia Bot5 votes

I was totally fine when it was only a stronger slow on single target abilities while having 80 AP and 500 health. It is the 40% slow on AoE abilities that is really making it over the top.

Nameless Voice1 votes

For me, it's the 40% slow on DoTs. It's not fun being unable to move if you ever get hit by Brand or Cass.

Jbels3 votes

It could be argued that mages need that slow to peel for themselves against the people who excel at getting on top of them, but in that case, I think Rylais would be healthier if the 40% slow applied for targets running at you, and only 15% for targets running away from you

TequilaZombie4 votes

They usually have CC or mobility for the self peel. Sometimes both. The 40% slow is usually overkill.

Jbels3 votes

{quoted}

They usually have CC or mobility for the self peel. Sometimes both. The 40% slow is usually overkill.

Some mages sorely miss that consistent CC, Karthus comes to mind. I feel like Karthus is just a victim of the times though. I hear he's doing some crazy shit in top lane though, sounds interesting af

TequilaZombie5 votes

Karthus is not only one of the few champions who are MEANT to buy Rylai's. He's also the only champion who does not give a fuck about dying in a team fight.

Also his wall at 5 ranks is a whooping 80% slow (which decays over 4 seconds).

LordGeovanni3 votes

Last i checked karthus has a large zoneing W the spell on him no one remembers because he buys rylias every game. The w slows a decent amount and more importantly increases magic damage on the target. as is said in certain circles death is the best cc..

LordGeovanni1 votes

You forgot range and low cooldown most often high damage spells

Anonagon3 votes

you already know my stance on rylais i've made it clear in a million of your other threads so here i'll just spew memes:

<desire to remove intensifies>

-> 2k16 -> Riot still lets champions itemize into permaslows -> ?

Cassiopeia Ahri Viktor Syndra Velkoz
We need Rylais! Because built in self peel spells aren't enough! Because immobile melee champions have too easy of a time getting onto us! Because we need the health of a tank item on our top-tier AP item! Because skillshots are too hard to land when the opponent is going a normal speed!

Mordekaiser +item 3116

Stock·holm syn·drome noun feelings of trust or affection felt in certain cases of kidnapping or hostage-taking by a victim toward a captor.

Malicious Metal: "I actually find buying Rylais really satisfying"

bruh you're a victim, we can get you help man

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Ahri

Bruh, if an Ahri player is reliant on Rylai's they have bigger problems. not that these changes would matter because W and R still apply the single target slow

Anonagon1 votes

... that's the joke

HazyCloud73 votes

15% slow?....15% slow?

You may as well outright DELETE the item from the game with a nerf like that. 30% single target slow and 20% AoE sounds a lot more reasonable. When they balance Rylai's they need to do whatever is best for the state of the item, not what will work for Mordekaiser which seems to be the overall goal of all of your Rylai's threads.

More than likely that will mean a nerf to the AP and AoE slow percentage, and I'm willing to bet the single target slow isn't going to be nerfed down to 15% like you suggest. Because that would be totally ridiculous with the obscene amount of mobility in the game right now if they also plan to nerf the AP on the item, which they will as a result of the community response.

Malicious Metal4 votes

15% slow would hurt Morde just as bad.

40% permaslows are just not healthy. It was way better when only a select few mages built it back when it was an actual situational option.

And you're just as fucking biased as me, seeing you main Vik and Azir

HazyCloud72 votes

Who said 40% is healthy? There's a quite a range between 15% and 40%. They don't need to keep the single target and slow equal, they can hit the AoE slow particularly hard and hit the single target slow less.

I'm not anywhere near as biased because I didn't create like 15-20 threads about the item and my champion with the goal of making sure riot keeps them in mind while balancing, and I acknowledge that Rylai's is problematic, I have in every single Rylai's thread. All I want is for the item to remain viable on mages, that's all. I don't want any special buffs for viktor, I don't care if they nerf the AP or hit the slow percentage. If it's viable enough for the mages that actually need it and don't build it solely for its efficiency to continue building it I'm totally content.

WoonStruck1 votes

If I can work off of a 15% slow as Vlad, and MM can work off of a 15% slow on Morde...yeah, you don't really have an argument.

Mages, especially ranged, do not need that large of a slow.

30% melee, 15% ranged?

HazyCloud71 votes

Do that and I'd venture a guess that some of the mages that rely on Rylai's would require compensation. Just outright changing the slow from 40% -> 15% would be a really big hit to quite a few of them. Mages are a class with a lot of variety, you can't really make a broad statement like that. Some mages (like Xerath, Syndra, Annie, Velkoz) certainly don't need it, but Taliyah/Aurelion Sol certainly do.

Vlad already has two slows in his kit (one of them albeit very short at 0.5 seconds) so I don't think he will be impacted very heavily either way. His most frequent build path involves building Rylai's as a 4th item to put things into perspective.

WoonStruck1 votes

Taliyah and Aurelion Sol do not need it. lol

If anything it only causes them to be seen as issues when they're in a decent spot, and they are.

There's too much power in Taliyah's Q and Sol's passive/W to be made that reliable. They absolutely should not be reliant on this item at a high slow %.

Vlad's most frequent build path that you're looking at is garbage and is why he has a sub-50% win rate.

Anyone that's decent at him is building item 3158 item 3001 item 3116 item 3157item 3089 item 3135 on him now, or other variations of very high AP.

If you get a decent chunk of gold from anything, you usually push into Rylai's ASAP. The only reason to delay Rylai's is if you need the CDR/MR/Armor to even lane against whoever your match-up is.

HazyCloud71 votes

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I don't doubt that you are good at vladimir but in competitive essentially every pro built spirit visage + protobelt as their first two major items the entire year. And this is true for their ranked games as well, not just competitive. If your build works for you that's great; Pro viktor players always build lucidity boots and I get Sorc shoes nearly every game, so more power to you for doing something unique.

If pros aren't building Rylai's until their 3rd (and sometimes 4th) major item I think that speaks quite a bit as to how much he actually needs it.

P.S. As someone that does not play vlad I WISH everybody built like that. Not really a fan of laning against someone who rushes spirit visage.

ZephyrDrake3 votes

New Recipe: Giant's Belt item.png Giant's Belt + Needlessly Large Rod item.png Needlessly Large Rod + Amplifying Tome item.png Amplifying Tome + 315 Gold = 3000 Gold Old Recipe: Giant's Belt item.png Giant's Belt + Blasting Wand item.png Blasting Wand + Amplifying Tome item.png Amplifying Tome + 605 Gold = 2900 Gold Single Target Slow increased to 40% from 35% Area of Effect Slow (instant) increased to 40% from 15% Damage over time or Multi-hit Slow increased to 20% for 1 second from 15% for 1.5 seconds Summoned minions now slow on-hit 20% for 1 second New particle added

this was the buff that broke the item since before it was pretty balanced and not abusable. First off this item does not need 100 AP, the 80 it had before was more than enough and there is not need for it to have 40% slow on AoE skills 20% should be more than enough for it. There are plenty of other AP items to be buffed if you really need to have another 100 AP item or just buff item 3089 and be done with it

Over Innsmouth2 votes

Yes.

GULAG 4 U3 votes

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

One does not simply disagree with MM and gets away with it :^)

yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

One does not simply disagree with MM and gets away with it :^)

yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

I feel like this is a JoJo's refference

GULAG 4 U1 votes

wats jojo

TequilaZombie2 votes

No.

Sue me.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

K i sue you for disobeying to our lord and master malicious metal : ^)

Nameless Voice2 votes

I think they need to bring back the way it used to have different amounts of slow based on how it was applied.

I don't have a problem with someone buying it to apply an occasional strong slow (e.g. on a 10s cooldown ability), but what I have a problem with is people applying permaslows because they are using a DoT or an ability with an incredibly low cooldown. Seriously, what was wrong with the old Rylai's? It wasn't a problem. 35% on single-target spells, and 15% on DoTs, AoE and rapid-fire abilities.

The fact that the current Rylai's is just a good item in general (stat-wise) doesn't help. Bear in mind that it currently has more gold efficiency than Rabadon's Deathcap, despite being a cheaper and having a much nicer build path. (Plus, hybrid offence/defence items should probably be less gold efficient than pure damage / defensive items in general.)

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

i love viktor and cassiopeia having speed ups chasing me with almost no cd spell chain and ryze hitting E off a minion from 2k range away.

Theorex2 votes

{quoted}

i love viktor and cassiopeia having speed ups chasing me with almost no cd spell chain and ryze hitting E off a minion from 2k range away.

E has a range of 615. The bounce radius is even shorter. So realistically its like 1.1-1.3k away from him when it hits you. His Q has 1k Range. His ulti has 1750 and 3500 range. DONT YOU DARE. SAY THAT MY RYZE IS EVEN MORE OVERPOWERED THEN HE CURRENTLY IS OVERPOWERED. P.S. Most people who play him don't even know how to use him correctly. Watching worlds confirmed that Faker is the only one who used Ryze correctly. Most pros don't use him correctly. Only the people with over 250 games really use him correctly.

Evewynn1 votes

Why not just make the slow scale with the cooldown of the ability that applied it? That way shorter cooldown spells can't just spam the strong slow, while bigger spells are still impactful.

Malicious Metal2 votes

That's actual really neat but what about cdr then? Wouldn't it be kinda counter-productive to build cdr then?

Evewynn1 votes

I imagine it would be balanced at 40% cdr, having no interaction with your investment into the stat. Being punished for progressing is never a good thing.

Nameless Voice2 votes

It still wouldn't fix some edge cases, like how Brand hitting you with a single spell can permaslow you for several seconds. (Unless it didn't count for passives, in which case I'd switch to using Swain or Malzahar as an example.)

Evewynn1 votes

Well, there are ways to address this. You could have it only proc once per spell cast, for example.

WoonStruck1 votes

Because even champions like Morgana are cancer with it, despite having long CD spells.

TeCoolMage1 votes

Yeah, for AoE effects. And no AoE champion ever bought the item.

While it's not really core, I buy it on Xerath and Vel'Koz now, both of which actually get a real benefit from the item now.

I think the slow needs to be reduced for single target abilities since those are the ones that tend to be spammable asf. Very few AoE abilities abuse this item.

Champion Skin1 votes

15% slow would be bearable and totally fine, 40% is just too easily abused.

That's not the entire story after all at that time didn't slows stack? which made a 15% slow slightly better (also it had 0.5 seconds longer duration) If I remember correctly

ragdollomega1 votes

Not really. Keep in mind that at that time additional slows added only a percent of their slow to the preexisting slow. So any slow ability that was not single target would only get I think it was 40-50% of that 15% slow from rylais. Now the current rylais just adds a flat 40% slow to whatever ability it is on. It is most certainly stronger in its current iteration.

Champion Skin1 votes

Rylais wasn't that bad since you know it actually did give a decent amount of slow strength even back then... but only to single target abilties if I remember correctly

Ah here it is V5.13 http://lol.gamepedia.com/Rylai%27s_Crystal_Scepter

SINGLE TARGET: SLOW 35% ⇒ 40% AREA OF EFFECT SLOW (INSTANT): 15% ⇒ 40% DAMAGE OVER TIME OR MULTI-HIT SLOW: 15% for 1.5 seconds ⇒ 20% for 1 second

While yes AoE has clearly been massively buffed... Single target probably stayed about the same because of slows no longer stacking (and there are a lot of slows)

ragdollomega1 votes

I'm not saying old rylais was bad, just that the current version is stronger by a clear margin. Pretty much across the board the new slow is simply better. Non-slowing spells have a clear increase in rylai passive slow and spells that already have a slow on them either would receive the greater benefit from rylais or usually had high enough slows where the fraction gained would be insignificant. The number of single target damage abilities with slows (the only ones that lost any real benefit) I can count between my hands and they already had fairly high slows so losing the fraction from 35% didn't make much of a difference either.

Selegun1 votes

What if the slow % wasnt based on the spell used but on the distance you are from the target when casting? Something like 40% if you are in melee, 20% for 300ish units and 10% past that.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

? I was sure the original had a 6 second CD before it was reappliable, when the heck was it ever below a 35% slow?

Sigh I'm slow, I didn't realize all this time the slow was reworked again.... Just assumed it was only the AP that was raised, jesus I havn't paid attention while playing mages in a while....

Mirkhail1 votes

When it have a 15% aoe slow and a 35% single target slow only champion that could spam single target spell and could use all the stats bought it. It's true that actual item 3116 need changes but the old one wasn't better, too niche , built mostly by the mages that could abuse it and not like a defensive item.

Asura Gonza1 votes

Leave the slow alone. Nerf The AP or the HP or both, but the slow is make what makes rylai so iconic.

The problem is that riot turned rylai into a burst items and it shoudnt be like that , and on top of it it gives good HP.

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