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Xypherous posts on why Ruby Sightstone is never given a buff

darkdill··8 votes·2,294 views
Ruby Sightstone should recharge wards over time instead of just on returning to fountain * /r/leagueoflegends

Easy solution, Xypherous.

Increase the total upgrade cost of RSS to 1200 or more, buff the health it grants to around 500-550 health, and give it a "Ward Recharge" effect whereby it recharges wards while you're in the field (instead of only on return to fountain). It's still too expensive to rush for supports, while still not being cost-effective for the health upgrade, meaning junglers and other classes won't abuse it.

EDIT: Alternative solutions.

  1. Change Sightstone so that after X minutes, it automatically upgrades into Ruby Sightstone. Every minute, Sightstone gives you a bit more health until the upgrade completes.
  2. Change Sightstone so that you can't upgrade it into Ruby Sightstone until you are a certain level (i.e. level 13 or higher). Make Ruby Sightstone more powerful.

40 Comments

AMYS GRAVE5 votes

Sightstone upgrades into ruby sightstone after 25(?) wards have been placed and 15(?) minutes.

PublicArtillery1 votes

I think the ward placement idea sounds great just like the item 3070 !

Maestro805 votes

What? A red responded to a Sighstone thread?!

And of course it was on Reddit, and not here.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

Increase the total upgrade cost of RSS to 1200 or more, buff the health it grants, and give it a "Ward Recharge" effect whereby it recharges wards while you're in the field (instead of only on return to fountain).

How does this solve Xyph's problem? His main concern is that, if the upgrade to Sightstone is good, supports will have to buy it, and that will delay their cool item purchases.

The effect you propose sounds like a really, really important one for vision fights, which means I'd expect mandatory vision item buying to be a thing.

darkdill2 votes

The point is that the upgrade, for cost, is STILL not good, but not as worthless in the end-game scenario.

Do you want to pay that much and delay your other support items that much in the mid-game? Probably not. You can survive on a regular Sightstone.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

It's not that I want to pay that much. It's that wards are way better than any items supports can buy.

I'm not sure how many extra wards the upgrade you propose is giving. If it's something like +1 ward per 60 seconds in the field, I'd expect that to be a mandatory thing for supports to buy. Those extra wards mean your team can carry more red trinkets, which only increases the pressure on the opposing support to buy the thing as well.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

Only 3 wards per person. Wouldn't become mandatory because they're still not able to coat the map in wards with it.

Done252 votes

The problem is that by giving the support more ward options it turns him into the "vision bitch" like in the earlier seasons. The Support will be pressured to rush this item and the red sweeper every game so that the Marksman wont have to spend any gold on vision, thus allowing them to reach their late game more easily than they should.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

And I wasn't arguing against this. As someone who's supported since S1, I'm WELL aware of this and was bringing it up as a counterargument. If you're not the ward bitch, regenerating wards become less powerful due to the limits of application.

SmokingPuffin4 votes

Suppose you have Sightstone and I have this new Spiffy Sightstone. We both go to contest dragon. I drop 3 wards, you drop 3 wards. I scan one of yours, you scan one of mine. Our junglers scan a pair of wards too.

Now I have the extra wards in my bag to replace vision, while you've gotta base or concede ward advantage.

Ward advantage is gigantic in competitive play. My team being able to see everything around dragon is significantly more valuable than your completed item 3092.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

And while this is important, in my experience most supports will have to back by the point they run out of wards or have bought extras already. It's probably different in competitive play, but most of the time I'll take my item 3069 over this Sightstone idea simply because of the engage/disengage potential it gives my team and the increased gold gain so that I can contribute more to my team.

Is this the right choice? I'm not sure. It depends a lot on situational value and levels of play. But you're not going to be able to provide an enormous advantage by not needing to go back as soon, especially if the Sightstone is as costly as the OP is considering.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

It's probably different in competitive play

This is pretty much the tldr. Vision is incredibly important in a game where teams make good use of the information.

Your play may very well be the optimal play for solo queue, especially lower elo.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

Especially when I'm playing support, when I have to try to make the most of every single one of my advantages to try to make up for the disadvantages my teammates give themselves. Maybe you're right and this would be incredibly powerful in the Baron dance for pros. But I think outside that, it'd probably be only a little stronger than the current Ruby.

I just find myself in base too often to use it fully otherwise.

CoolKnightST1 votes

{quoted}

How does this solve Xyph's problem? His main concern is that, if the upgrade to Sightstone is good, supports will have to buy it, and that will delay their cool item purchases.

The effect you propose sounds like a really, really important one for vision fights, which means I'd expect mandatory vision item buying to be a thing.

Currently it rarely happends someone upgrade his item 2049. The regular sightstone is fine. It just need something for lategame stats. That's all

SmokingPuffin4 votes

People don't buy the item 2045 because it doesn't contribute to the vision game in any meaningful way. Give supports an upgrade that does, and they'll hate you, but they'll still buy it.

Alternatively, you can try to give item 2049 an upgrade that doesn't contribute to the vision game, but has useful stats. Supports will love you for this, but junglers will buy it too, and now you have way too many wards on the map.

It's not impossible to make a item 2049 upgrade that's good for the game, but it's very, very difficult. Better to spend their time working on other parts of the item tree. For example, item 3222 badly needs some competition.

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

How does this solve Xyph's problem? His main concern is that, if the upgrade to Sightstone is good, supports will have to buy it, and that will delay their cool item purchases.

The effect you propose sounds like a really, really important one for vision fights, which means I'd expect mandatory vision item buying to be a thing.

Yeah, exactly. The main benefit of ruby being relatively weak is that YOU DON'T HAVE TO RUSH IT. You can actually build items that are good for your champion! Even though you're playing support!

A ruby that you actually needed as something other than a way to spend excess gold at 50 minutes would take away from your ability to do that.

If anything, they should even further nerf the option for one person to sacrifice their gold and/or item slots to provide vision to the whole team. Because it's not going to remain optional.

Done252 votes

Or given how rediculously cheap and powerful yellow trinkets are now, just remove the sight stone. For 250 gold you get a free Ward every 60 seconds and can even now hold two at a time! (Once the next patch hits) So it's a lot cheaper than he sight stone and uses up no item slots, while still giving around the same level of vision!

darkdill2 votes

Supports are (generally) required to use a Sweeper.

Adrian Umbra2 votes

While this is sort of true, I really hate how this is phrased. No player is required to do anything. It's often nice as a support to build Sweeper, but it isn't by any means required. If not for the level limits on buying upgraded trinkets, I'd say that the OP here had a point, but as is Sightstone being available before upgraded yellow is a big strength.

Done251 votes

I'd say a single pink and maybe 1~2 wards at is usually enough to last anyone till level 9. If your wards are being destroyed too quickly then that's really the player's fault for not apply enough lane pressure to keep them safe.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

It very much depends on the lane and the level. Some very aggressive lanes (think Leona/Caitlyn vs. Soraka/Vayne kind of aggressive) will start with trinket or otherwise pressure you out being able to compete for vision. In Silver or Bronze, you may be able to get away with just your trinket. The reason I pointed out the level is that Sightstone is often an available (and only 800 gold) buy that'll give you more warding ability than the GST would, whereas the GST would likely be a temporary stop for earlier, less effective vision that would be sold later for Sightstone.

darkdill1 votes

Yes, regular Sightstone is very strong, but it's UPGRADED form is absolute crap. Sometimes I even consider dumping Sightstone in late-game (instead of upgrading) and replacing it with a Randuin, and tell my teammates to use their GSTs to handle the warding. They can provide generally enough vision to control objectives.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

And I completely agree that upgraded Sightstone's lack of any sort of power is a problem. I'd personally never consider selling my Sightstone simply due to the vision it provides combined with lack of trust in my teammates (I'm around the upper Silver/lower Gold level in most of my games) using their trinkets to ward key areas. But by "OP" here, I meant Done25, rather than you. You have a strong point that needs to be addressed by Riot if they ever decide to revisit support itemization.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Supports are required to use a Sweeper.

It might be extremely helpful, but it's not a requirement. I often grab sweeper as an Assassin Mid or gank heavy Jungler so I can clear out suspicious areas. Like the river bushes next to bottom and top.

Drunk Rummate2 votes

{quoted}

Or given how rediculously cheap and powerful yellow trinkets are now, just remove the sight stone. For 250 gold you get a free Ward every 60 seconds and can even now hold two at a time! (Once the next patch hits) So it's a lot cheaper than he sight stone and uses up no item slots, while still giving around the same level of vision!

yellow trinket isnt a very good substitute for sightstone because it removes your ability to build a sweeper. it's important that teams have at least 1-2 sweepers as the game progresses or you'll have a really hard time controlling the enemy jungle or baron/drake

Done251 votes

And what makes you think vision should be cheap and unlimited? Why not make it a choice of "Either I can have wards, or I can deny the enemy's vision and earn gold by destroying theirs with my sweeper/pink."

Limiting vision makes for more meaningful choices than "Light up the Baron area like it's Christmas."

Drunk Rummate1 votes

{quoted}

And what makes you think vision should be cheap and unlimited? Why not make it a choice of "Either I can have wards, or I can deny the enemy's vision and earn gold by destroying theirs with my sweeper/pink."

Limiting vision makes for more meaningful choices than "Light up the Baron area like it's Christmas."

Idk how I'm implying vision is cheap and unlimited. I'm just saying the yellow trinket doesn't replace having at least one sightstone on your team because it allows for multiple sweepers to be built and denial of vision is just as important as obtaining it.

Sailor Mint2 votes

You suggestion is the complete opposite of what they're trying to do. Ruby Sightstone is terrible because they don't want you to have to spend 1600g on vision before being able to buy anything else.

Easiest way would be to give the ward recharge to the Normal Sightstone (past level 9?) and buff Ruby Sightstone's combat stats.

darkdill1 votes

Giving ward recharge to regular Sightstone might be too much power, but it's worth thinking about.

My suggestion was really just tossing up ideas since I dislike how obsolete Sightstone/Ruby Sightstone are becoming due to GST.

Kingsgrave2 votes

Sightstone is still mandatory. You didn't solve any of this you just made it so you have to wait for Ruby.

Increasing the cost just makes the problem larger because they will have to waste more gold to get an item they don't really even want to buy that could have went towards items they would actually want to buy.

Honestly Sight Stone should be removed and Vision should be entirely in trinkets.

If you buff Sight Stone junglers and top laners start buying it. If you buff Ruby you make Vision WAY more powerful than it needs to be. Its not good for the game because it just warps everything around it.

I saw some ideas on Reddit in that very thread about making it one Sightstone per team, but pros would just hand it over to their Jungler (which most of them already build it now) and just have the Support build regular wards like normal. That kinda sorta solves the problem, but now Junglers are the ones that have to waste gold on an item they would rather not buy because there are much cooler items, and there would be WAY too much vision on the map.

Done251 votes

I agree. Here is what we've seen so far with wards and sightstone. 1 - Wards - The support spends 60% of their gold on wards so that the Marksman wont have to spend a single gold. Every time they go B they buy a full stack of yellows and a single pink.

2 - Sight Stone - Because of how powerful wards are the stats need to be inefficient so that everyone doesn't staple it to their builds. Which means the Support (who scales the least) will be the one to buy it.

3 - Trinkets - Everyone can only have one trinket. This means everyone has to contribute evenly. Does not unfairly pressure the Support.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

why not just make sighstone a component of the finished support items so that we can fuse them together with our frost queen or something?

SmokingPuffin2 votes

I think the main difficulty is that the support items all have actives.

Done251 votes

Riot has stated that they want to try and keep actives on as few items as possible. Every new additional active causes the others to lose their individuality and increases the amount of micro required.

Ex. Lulu with Zhonya, Frostqueen, Sightstone, and Twin Shadows. That's four things she needs to be able to use in tight time windows in addition to her four regular abilities.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

Riot has also stated that they like actives on support items. It's really hard to keep track of what Riot wants and doesn't want when it comes to itemization.

My concern is just a practical one. If Frost Queen's Claim ends up with Sightstone active, what do you do with the current one? Items can't have two actives, just from a technical standpoint.

Done252 votes

Riot is like a woman going through a mood swing.

"Mobility creep is a problem." ~Riot Riot releases Kalista, the Marksman who is outright immune to melee when she gets enough attack speed.

CoolKnightST2 votes

{quoted}

why not just make sighstone a component of the finished support items so that we can fuse them together with our frost queen or something?

A item that use 2 actives. I don't think it's worth losing the active for it.

LeoXXXLun1 votes

Rss is not cost efficient at all. I would rather get few more spare sight ward just incase run out of wards from bluess.

EfficientDynamo1 votes

Alternatively, why not just put whatever grab bag of upgrades you want on a ruby sightstone (I personally like the enchantment ideas), but only 1 upgraded sightstone is allowed per team. That way jungle can't encroach. And since Riot is worried about people delaying their builds for vision, make it locked until a certain time (e.g. 9 minutes like upgraded trinkets).

Kamai1 votes

As a thought, why not make the Sightstone upgrades interesting items in themselves, while still playing with vision:

Void Sightstone: Sightstone + Chalice + gold Has 5 ward charges that can be placed and refilled at the fountain. 200 health 25 magic resist 50% base mana regen

Passive: Horde's Blessing- You gain +25% base mana regen for every allied champion within 1000 units. Passive: Mana Font- You restore 2% of your missing mana every 5 seconds. Passive: Void Breach- Every time one of your wards dies, you restore 10% of your missing mana. The ward must have existed for at least 5 seconds.

Vortex Sightstone Sightstone + Kindlegem + gold Has 4 ward charges that can be placed and refilled at the fountain. 400 health 10% cooldown reduction

Passive: Vortex Spell- If your spell hits a ward, the spell hits an enemy champion within 250 units of the ward. If the spell continues traveling after hitting a unit, it's direction is unchanged. Spells that target enemy champions can now target your own wards without damaging them.

Balanced? Not the most sure. Adding to sightstone that feeds back into support abilities instead of forcing a rush for move vision? I think so.

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