Can we get more spell vamp items?

Cµpcakke·Jun 1, 2018·22 votes·11,203 views

Right now the only things that can be considered spell vamp is , Thirst of blood and Ravenous Hunter. which mainly works on

But what about DPS mages like No matter what I have built, and full stacks on Thirst of blood and Ravenous Hunter I cant seem to get them to life steal at a consistent amount.

I would love to see some spell vamp, especially on since if you have a team comp where she is the only diver, instead of dying instantly she could be able to sustain. too, in order to keep his turrets activated and to replace ones that have died, hes gotta be running around in a team fight.

41 Comments

FurriesAreHotJun 1, 201811 votes

Spellvamp was removed because of the balance issues it presented. Some characters relied on it, so it needed to be good. But when it was good, it was just abused by other characters and nerfed, making those who relied on it weak.

Also, way more assassins use Gunblade.

Shrek LuigiJun 1, 20182 votes

I also use it a lot on toplane fighters with an AP-scaling poke, if I think maxing that poke first would be viable for playing more aggro earlier/attempting to shut someone down or mess up their csing. The sustain is a really nice touch, and a lot of not-always-obvious champions can get full-mileage out of the item in general.

Irelia immediately sprang into mind; I haven't gotten used to her new kit but Gunblade makes things way easier lol.

SaiannaJun 1, 20189 votes

Thankfully we have nooooo issues with lifesteal. Non at all. Only 3-4 hits and ADC is back to full from whatever miserable state he was before.

I know that you are just relying the argument Riot made, but tbh it's false. Otherwise why would they rework 2 champs that used spellvamp to begin with (vlad/... I don't even remember who else it was x.x.. Maybe it was Akali?).

Eitherway completely removing spell vamp showed, that Riot doesn't really want mages to have any possible advantages or diverse build paths.

On the other side they don't mind ADCs lifestealing for more and faster than some mages can actually burst.

FurriesAreHotJun 1, 20186 votes

Strawman of the century. Your logic is "Its ok because Lifesteal exists." Let you neglect the fact Lifesteal isnt 100% mandatory for any champion to function, exception of Aatrox, but he barely functions at all. Vlad was reworked for being an uninteractive spambot who was cancer to lane against.

Really? You play the "Riot hates mages" card? Come on, that argument is so weak and lacks so much substance it's laughable.

SaiannaJun 1, 20185 votes

No, hell no it's no strawman argument by no means.

What I tried to mean is: Riot thinks spellvamp is a NO, because few champions abuse it. So they remove spellvamp and then rework and change those said champions either way. Spellvamp was hardly usefull for anyone else beyond those few mentioned (which means it was hardly viable to use it).

But they also do not see ANYTHING wrong with lifesteal being abused by alot bigger pool of champions that pretty much outheal all the damage done to them if the burst will not instantly finish them off. And lifesteal being not mandatory doesn't mean it isn't used. It means champs COULD use it, but don't have to.

And if you say people didn't use/buy lifesteal, remind me which mastery was the most used by ADCs 1-2 seasons ago. Warriors bloodlust? What did it do...? Oh it lifestealed?

Really? You play the "Riot hates mages" card?

It's not me who plays this card, but Riot. From all the classes, mages were ones Riot shat on the most. And please, i beg of you, don't cheese-ask me what exactly did they do, cause doing that is more of a job than anything else.

If you don't believe me, then don't. I've had too many conversations like this one, where I'd show the proof and what I'd receive is just laughing or ignorance. i'm really not going in that rabit hole ever again.

My first comment wasn't a jab towards you, but more like sad laugh at Riots decisions.

FurriesAreHotJun 2, 20184 votes

Lifesteal's power is LITERALLY irrelevant to Spellvamp being unhealthy. It's a class A exmaple of "Well X is fine, because Y is worse"

Again, no matter how you word it, you're playing the "Riot is against mages" card. Repeating your argument with a different wording doesn't make it valid.

ninjaroxasJun 2, 20183 votes

Um you might want to look up what literally means.

considering they are the exact same thing with the only difference being the type of damage it works with

HàrrowRJun 2, 20181 votes

I know this wil fall on deaf ears because most board members never actually bother to try and understand the other side,not to even mention play something other than their role,but here goes.

There is so many reasons that a dedicated spellvamp item would be broken on most mages but its not broken on adcs,the following ones are:

-Mage itemization gives them a whole lot of defensive stats,most mages core builds include something like item 3165 item 3151 item 3116 item 3040 item 3027 and thats not even counting defensive buys like item 3157 item 3102 ,and please don't pull the,well adcs can build item 3156 item 3026 item 3022 argument,i think i've played over 5k games and ive never seen someone build that as their first or second item and do anything with it,its all reserved for your 5th or 6th item and most games end by then or its still higly situational,like Maw being useless vs ADs.

Buying just one item,for example ROA,will give you 500 more HP than the adc,get Morello and now youre 800 HP up on them,now i know some mages like Ahri will usually go full AP build except for maybe Morello,but that leads us to our second point

Mages have more inbuilt survivability compared to most ADCs. There's a reason ADCs aren't played MID vs Assassins but mages are,im not saying there isn't adcs that are good at surviving like but what they do lack is,and its a HUGE BUT, CC and Burst,not to mention some have inbuilt sustain like or shields like

-Third point is,grass is always greener on the other side,i know,cause i was thinking the same way about Mages items,how i wish ADCs would get items that offer both HP and AD/AS,and i still do,but on the other hand i realize playing mages that sometimes even with 3k hp and a Seraph shield you will still die when caught,the thing is,this works 10x as much for the ADCs even when they're full build since they still usually don't build almost anything defensive,so no matter how much you can lifesteal per shot if you cant survive that burst from Rengar,Zed,Veigar or anyone else,it doesn't matter cause you wont have the time to lifesteal back up. Youre giving it too much props,lifesteal is very weak early,even if someone buys it its usually more of a lane sustain tool rather than drain tank tool,so you need to have at least 2-3 items before its even worth buying that lifesteal usually,on the other hand it can be useful when someone cant instantly kill you and you keep healing back up,or just barely manage to lifesteal 300 hp in that fight and survive somehow where you would otherwise die,but the same effect could be achieved by just having 300 more hp to begin with,not to mention that HP feels a lot more better vs Burst and especially when youre CCed and cant do damage yourself,it pays off to be able to be able to soak up a little more damage.

Overall i think having spellvamp would break most mages,seeing how they arent that squsihy or team reliant anyway,you know how annoying sometimes Vlad gets,being tanky but also healing himself,well he is balanced around his low range and mobility,imagine Veigar who has CC and can do thousands of damage in few seconds,but now he can also almost instantly heal himself back up from any damage he recived just by ulting someone or throwing a W on some cs. Try and play 20-30 games with adcs,go buy lifesteal and tell me how it works out for you when Rengar kills you in 0.7 seconds Also Ravenous Hunter gives you that spellvamp basically,having another item over it would push it over the edge

SaiannaJun 2, 20181 votes

I don't really understand your first point. You have written a bunch of mage items that give def-stats. I don't really see the point of it. Mages kinda need those HP items to deal with their opponents. Or maybe you think squish mage vs assassin is easy :P?

Then this:

and please don't pull the,well adcs can build X/YZ

Not only they can and it is somewhat viable option for some of them, but they also have a support just for themselves for 90% of the game. A whole 1 champion dedicated to make ADC buy less survivability. But that is beyond the original point, so lets skip it.

Buying just one item,for example ROA,will give you 500 more HP than the adc,get Morello and now youre 800 HP up on them

First: For what it gives ROA takes a solid 15 minutes to stack. That is 15 minutes of you focusing on better survivability rather than damage.

Second: Do you know whay mages have so many HP-stat options in their items? Because in this powercreeped DMG meta, everyone would kill them before they'd even cast a spell. Sure, a mage with bonus 800HP more than ADC looks intimidating untill you remember that he's useless without his abilities and even those are below average, as he focused on HP items instead of AP.

Do you know why ADCs don't have to buy defensive stats as first, second or even 3rd item? Ofc beyond the whole case of them having a support behind them? Because they have better options. ADC that missed his power spike is useless. A Mage that missed his power spike is just a support.

Mages have more inbuilt survivability compared to most ADCs.

Because they are either close range, or their cooldowns make them useless for 10-15 seconds between bursts. So they NEED HP to survive for the next shot to be fired. Also they need whatever survivability they need in lategame when ADCs could crit-lock them for 300/hit. Something their basic spells cannot do.

There's a reason ADCs aren't played MID vs Assassins but mages are

Yea, waveclear and ganking. Also the fact that ADCs without supports nearby tend to die pretty quickly to assassins (as it's supposed to be).

And no. Mages aren't played mid for their shitty sustain or shields. It's because they have NOWHERE else to go. sustain/shields are the solution for them to be viable in mid lane.

Listen, when we used to have WOTA with its spellvamp, it hardly made a noticeable change. Unlike ADCs, mages (at least 99% of them) cannot crit with their abilities. The spellvamp was even further reduced to DOT/AOE damage. By no means was it game changing stat. If anything buying WOTA would actually serve as buying less pots.

Spellvamp as a stat was heavily unhealthy only on 4-5 champions out of all. And by that time every SV enthusiast asked Riot to rework it, if anything, rather than remove it completely. There were few decent suggestions for SV to be reworked into healthy stat. But it was taken away like that. And you know what else? The 4 champs that 'abused' it... were soon after reworked............................... Yea. Fucking great.

Lastly, you should know that lifesteal (and spellvamp) as a stat are actually hurting this game by alot. Their existence (well, not SV anymore) reduces the possible power of supports, which in fact makes playing supports feel like a tedious, boring, annoying work.

Here's an example: Do you know that in HOTS lifesteal is quite rare and pretty weak stat? You know what does it do for the game? There are supports in the mode, that have BASIC ABILITY heals that heal you for 50%+ of squish health, a cast. In HOTS playing a support FEELS powerfull. It FEELS FUN. In LOL, however, I'd need a solid 3 minutes to fill HP of some ADC squish with raka in early game. And In lategame my heals become useless. Either they hardly fix a scratch, or ACs have BTs and outheal every damage with 1-2 autos.

But that's the other thing.

My very first point in this thread was: Riot removed weak-ass spellvamp from the game, while calling it unhealthy. Yet they see no issue ADCs running with 30% lifesteal, a game critting people for 300+ and pretty much outhealing ANY damage they get. Some mages would absue it? Then how about rework SV that wouldn't be abusable, hmm?

HàrrowRJun 2, 20181 votes

Im not sure how you misunderstood my point,like i said a lot of core items for a lot of mages also give defensive stats,something that core ADC items do not,you cant rush Maw or GA as your first item,also ROA needs 10 minutes to stack and its hardly useless before that anyway,it gives 300 hp and mana to begin with and also heals when expending mana. You said it yourself,they need that hp to survive assassins and the down time of their abilities,so what would be the use of a spellvamp item when they need it the most they usually have nothing to cast and it would break them in lane cause they would sustain through it while also being very hard to one shot when at full hp,assassin usually try to poke you down before going for an all in,imagine always fighting a full hp mage when that mage is also pretty tanky.

So yes,they need that HP to survive assassins,but having 1k hp more than ADCs while also healing as much as them would very well break them,there's also ravenous hunter in the game,imagine throwing another 15-20% spellvamp in there. Not to mention they have a lot of CC and burst so that spellvamp would be even more useful since ADCs more often than not die before they can heal back up if we are talking about an all in,if a mage can stun someone and then proceed to burst,even when they are half hp they could very well negate all poking or damage done in that fight and heal back up,something that is much harder for an adc to pull off since they cant cc and don't burst as good.

It would be like ADCs healing as much as they do now but also having 800 hp more,does that sound like a reasonable thing to ask?

SaiannaJun 3, 20181 votes

so what would be the use of a spellvamp item when [...]

That's the point. Spellvamp was never 'go-to' sort of item. It never was a main stat. If anything, it was a stat you'd get if either you needed that tiny bit of sustain (cause lets be honest, 16% SV from AOE damage is hardly noticeable in any stage of the game).

Removing it was nothing more than Riot saying "we don't want to bother balancing it, so removing it will be easier".

Seriously, the SV we had was not something you'd notice. It was a FUN stat, nowhere near META.

Also have in mind that HP stats were actually buffed after quite some time after SV was removed. Not that those 2 events correlate somehow, but my guess is, Riot would buff mage items HP stat either way.

I really dislike how you really try to justify it by saying mages have more HP by buying X/Y/Z. Remember each of those items pushes their powerspike to later stages of the game. It reduces their damage... And yet they have to buy it. 800hp more while having 250-300AP lategame is laughable, yet so often seen on mages. You say this:

most board members never actually bother to try and understand the other side

yet you yourself do exactly the same...

HàrrowRJun 3, 20181 votes

I have to disagree with your last point,i play mages i also play jungle,adc is my main role but not the only one. I feel safer 10 times having those extra hp,shields and cc than having lifesteal on an adc. If it isnt noticebale then just take ravenous hunter for that sustain. 300 ap is nowhere near laughable when you also get 30 mr pen,grievous wounds,slow,proc from ludens etc. Just yesterday i played lux with ludens roa morello void and raba,my ult could do 1k damage with around 670 ap, while having 2700 hp and my shield would give 700 hp on a 7 sec cd.. Thats basically 1500 hp more than the adc,if they lifesteal even a 100 per shot at 2.0 as it would take them almost 8 seconds of shooting at you to heal that damage in a fight and thats without counting the possibility of dying before you even fire a shot or get cced,not to mention also grievous wounds

Akali is SO HOTJun 1, 20188 votes

Vladimir He's like Ezreal except for spellvamp.

FurriesAreHotJun 1, 20183 votes

Basically why it got removed.

DuskDaUmbreonJun 1, 20186 votes

Mordekaiser and Vladimir make this impossible to have and have it be balanced.

Warlord RhinarkJun 1, 20183 votes

They brought back Atma's.

Now they just need to bring back WOA.

KlydeFrogJun 1, 20183 votes

Bud there is a rune your supposed to take as well. Heal for 15% of the damage you deal. Combined witg gunblade boom free casts

Shrek LuigiJun 1, 20183 votes

I would be down with another spellvamp item or two provided that none of these items stack, since it compounds on itself very hard and makes certain matchups unbearable/shifts game-balance toward gooning people with Ignite/an early GW item.

Perhaps one of these could be something that makes health-returns from AOE spells more efficient, if only by a modest amount? (AOE/DoT spell-damage returns are reduced to 30% of their base-value iirc). I know it could be problematic if implemented the wrong way but, with a good dose of consideration re. trade-offs and what stats the item might give, I think it could be a decent addition.

DW DianaJun 1, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shrek Luigi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XXwGuPM9,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-06-01T16:28:23.296+0000)

I would be down with another spellvamp item or two provided that none of these items stack, since it compounds on itself very hard and makes certain matchups unbearable/shifts game-balance toward gooning people with Ignite/an early GW item.

That's easy with unique passive.

Perhaps one of these could be something that makes health-returns from AOE spells more efficient, if only by a modest amount? (AOE/DoT spell-damage returns are reduced to 30% of their base-value iirc). I know it could be problematic if implemented the wrong way but, with a good dose of consideration re. trade-offs and what stats the item might give, I think it could be a decent addition.

Dot's tend to do less damage then aoe/single targets because they get hit by more mitigation effects, therefore I'd not really both with the reduction to Dot's (though AOE makes sense). Also the spell vamp would need to be based on ability and item effects, not just abilities, as otherwise you might as well just stick with ravenous hunter (pathetically low healing all day long). Maybe stick it to magic damage only like DD works off only physical.

Vlad, morde and a few others abusing it might be an issue, but that's for riot to balance with those specific cases and shouldn't really effect everyone else.

RIP Tahm KenchJun 1, 20182 votes

Dot's tend to do less damage then aoe/single targets because they get hit by more mitigation effects

Every time I see this posted, I die inside a little. This also came up when they turned fiddles drain from 4 ticks a second, to 8 ticks a second at half damage.

If the enemy has 100 MR, they have 50% damage reduction (equation: Reduction = MR / (MR+100) ). If Fid's drain does 200 dps normally, then with 4 ticks and 50% damage it comes out to be 200/4 * 0.5 = 25 damage a tick, for a total dps of 100.

At 8 ticks a second, it does 200/8 * 0.5 = 12.5 damage a tick, for a total dps of 100.

The only case in which a spell that does 300 damage over 2 seconds does less damage than a 300 damage burst is with adaptive helm. With adaptive helm, the reduction starts after the first tick, rather than after the first spell for burst.

DW DianaJun 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Every time I see this posted, I die inside a little. This also came up when they turned fiddles drain from 4 ticks a second, to 8 ticks a second at half damage.

If the enemy has 100 MR, they have 50% damage reduction (equation: Reduction = MR / (MR+100) ). If Fid's drain does 200 dps normally, then with 4 ticks and 50% damage it comes out to be 200/4 * 0.5 = 25 damage a tick, for a total dps of 100.

At 8 ticks a second, it does 200/8 * 0.5 = 12.5 damage a tick, for a total dps of 100.

The only case in which a spell that does 300 damage over 2 seconds does less damage than a 300 damage burst is with adaptive helm. With adaptive helm, the reduction starts after the first tick, rather than after the first spell for burst.

Firstly, I die a little inside when I see this kind of response, so I guess we both are a little be closer to the grave.

Secondly Damage over Time (DoT) means the enemy/enemies ally's have more time to react to the damage and mitigate it, therefore making DoT damage more susceptible to mitigation (which was the point I was making).

Lastly you are right, there are also items that also effect the delayed damage of a DoT over the straight up damage of single target burst, item 3194 being just one example of this.

Think of the entire statement and ALL it's implications across the game rather then just one.

DW DianaJun 1, 20182 votes

Malzahar isn't really a dps mage anymore, at least not until 3 items (though I still hold out hope for some attention one day xD).

I think they should add spell vamp to something like Roa. Something that is a good first item, already has some form of sustain built in, so would work well with it.

I also think they should bring back DFT and add a spell vamp effect to it.

But these are just dreams of a balanced midlane, and a main who has watched riot systematically destroy his favorite champion lol.

TheCodeisCupCakeJun 1, 20182 votes

I feel like it would break the game, Ive been trying hail of blades on Darius (PS is trash don't go for it) and I've taken ravenous hunter as a smaller rune, Its stupid that i get 200 bonus healing per with a smaller rune. And thats on Darius without visage, imagine a spell vamp item + ravenous hunter on someone like Annie with her Tibbers damage. It might be interesting but mostly broken imo

A Latte DeathsJun 1, 20182 votes

Spellvamp has always been really mediocre on Annie and burst mages in general. The biggest reason spellvamp is no longer in the game is because of a couple abusers being balanced around it (Vlad primarily, Cass/Ryze to a lesser extent iirc). It's also possible that Riot wants lack of sustain to be a weakness of mages. I personally would love for spellvamp to make a return, however. It's by far my favorite stat in the game.

NyarlathοtepJun 1, 20182 votes

Because riot doesnt want mages to have access to sustaining (roa's passive hardly heals).

Vlada CutJun 1, 20182 votes

Gunblade is a good ap sustaining item but works best with ap assasins, gives way better healing than DD does for assasins. Although tanks have hp regen and adc's/bruisers lifesteal(or at some point dd), and junglers lifesteal vs monsters, I think mages deserve a sustaining item of their own. And item that heals you for all the game damage you deal(similar to DD, except higher AP caps means you'll heal way more than AD users of DD). However I am affraid that just like regular adcs build IE, Statik Shiv and Bloodthirster the same would happen with Mages building Rabadon's, Luden's Echo and this Ap spelvamp item. See what I mean? They already made Luden's an AP version of Statik, then Rabadon's building turned into new IE and now this item as well. I'm just affraid of mages losing their building identity as their building path is basically the same as adc's except one builds ap another ad/crit.

Tychusfindlay918Jun 1, 20182 votes

the fact that this clown leaves out deaths dance is insane.

Deaths dance heals for any physicaldamage, including phys damage spells...

Solidair3Jun 1, 20182 votes

I mean I'd love that, but they didn't remove Will of the Ancients by accident. They don't want mages to have a sustain tool like that.

And I do so miss WotA on Syndra... Ah, memories.

Meep ManJun 1, 20182 votes

The excuse is always that Vladimir exists, yet there are already several runes that just grant tons of healing for just casting abilities and hitting them. Ravenous Hunter is straight up 15% Spell Vamp.

Emo TwinkJun 2, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Emperor Churger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XXwGuPM9,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2018-06-01T19:21:16.304+0000)

The excuse is always that Vladimir exists, yet there are already several runes that just grant tons of healing for just casting abilities and hitting them. Ravenous Hunter is straight up 15% Spell Vamp.

Reduced healing on aoe abilities is what I think theyre talking about. AP champs dont work well with the reduced healing since most ap abilities are AoE, but if that was removed, then Vlad would abuse it since he has decent AoE as well.

Malix FarwinJun 1, 20182 votes

We have item 3027 but we cannot afford to build it as mages. Our first build is expensive and gives us the CDR we need to function as well as/close to AD who autos alone contribute to a good amount of their damage. RoA is also best built as a first item so if you are not rushing it, it will take too long to ramp up into a useful item in the mid game, and games typically do not make it to a real late game. So while we technically have a "spell vamp" option, its one of the worst things you could build unless you are one of the very niche AP champs that rush it(like Vlad).

SweedishGunnerJun 1, 20181 votes

Spell Vamp was completely removed from the game, like you said we only have an AP/AD item with the heal from damage dealt passive, so I doubt we'll see it back anytime soon.

Teridax68Jun 1, 20181 votes

There used to be a pure AP spell vamp item (Will of the Ancients), but it got removed because Riot then had trouble balancing a couple champions who used it, namely Vlad, Swain and Morde. The main issue was that there was so much variance to spells, especially between AoE and single-target spells, that Riot felt they couldn't balance them all around a single effect (incidentally, they also introduced omnivamp and Death's Dance not that long after). I'd like to see a better sustain item than Catalyst be given to DPS mages, perhaps with a reverse Deathfire Touch that provided persistent self-healing over time when afflicting certain opponents with spells.

CURSEÐ REVENANTJun 1, 20181 votes

lmfao... no.

EkyonKunJun 2, 20181 votes

What if we had spell vamp, but if an ability is deemed too good with it like Vlad's Q, just make it heal with 50% or 33% spell vamp efficiency? Go on a case by case basis so it's not either useless or game breaking.

CppLJun 2, 20181 votes

No.champs like vlad ,mordekaiser ,akali etc... would be impossible to balance.

CµpcakkeJun 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No.champs like vlad ,mordekaiser ,akali etc... would be impossible to balance.

Akali Mordekaiser are being reworked my friend

PrinceOfStormsJun 2, 20181 votes

Just throw 30% spell vamp on Deathcap or something to make it a similar powerspike to Deathcap. Maybe then mages (yes, even Vlad) will actually have some degree of parity with ADCs. It's not like there isn't cheap easy GW anymore.

SanKakUJun 2, 20181 votes

Maybe we could get a 'support' item like that old Zeke's Herald, instead of granting Lifesteal to allies, it grants Spellvamp.

HyquiemJun 2, 20181 votes

Except if you give azir spell vamp. Then he will be stronger. As he already does the most dps, if you take the factor of aoe. Insanity my friend plus I don’t want my onetrick to be nerfed.