@RiotRepertoir talon's passive

KONO RUBICK DA·Aug 11, 2015·23 votes·7,029 views

i just wanted to ask you this question: what is your thought about his passive? because logically it's kinda awfull and one of the most useless passive ever... -Talon doesn't use autoattacks so much -Talon has only one spell to proc his passive -The damage increase is horrible.. 10% meanwhile corki does 10% bonus true damage every hit without needing a slow and shaco does 20% bonus damage when attacking from behind.

so can you at least allow him to does bonus damage on spells too or reworking his passive?

47 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 11, 201530 votes

Actually, I think an auto attack passive makes a lot of sense on Talon. That isn't to say his current passive is very good or fun, however. As you've mentioned above, Talon only has one real spell (maybe E does too if you're fast enough?) that triggers his passive, which (again as you've mentioned), for such a measly reward, just leaves it feeling like it's not even there in most cases.

It would be pretty cool if we could figure out a way to modify his passive in such a way that it felt like there were good, rewarding payouts to doing it correctly, because give its current state, satisfaction really just doesn't seem all that possible.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Actually, I think an auto attack passive makes a lot of sense on Talon. That isn't to say his current passive is very good or fun, however. As you've mentioned above, Talon only has one real spell (maybe E does too if you're fast enough?) that triggers his passive, which (again as you've mentioned), for such a measly reward, just leaves it feeling like it's not even there in most cases.

It would be pretty cool if we could figure out a way to modify his passive in such a way that it felt like there were good, rewarding payouts to doing it correctly, because give its current state, satisfaction really just doesn't seem all that possible.

Some notifications: -i Get that you want talon to have an attack passive,so applying his passive to his spells isn't a good idea -then i suggest you to reward talon for attacking a cc'ed target as you mentioned, couple of ideas: -the attack deals 10% of max hp (with a cooldown maybe?) this number would add a burst for talon -increase the % to 20.

As always thank you for your reply and i hope that the balance will do something for him!

pripustasAug 11, 20153 votes

Trying to make champions feel different is very good and admirable. But sometimes it doesn't work out as it was intended. Talon's passive was designed to reward for auto attacking, but the lack of items that give good ratios of AD and Atk speed, no built- in as buffs, and the presence of hard cc in every match is what makes this passive irrelevant.

My 2 euro cents.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Trying to make champions feel different is very good and admirable. But sometimes it doesn't work out as it was intended. Talon's passive was designed to reward for auto attacking, but the lack of items that give good ratios of AD and Atk speed, no built- in as buffs, and the presence of hard cc in every match is what makes this passive irrelevant.

My 2 euro cents.

how would you fixe it?

pripustasAug 11, 20152 votes

Well apart from adding new items/changing his kit I'm not sure you can :/ I'm not a Riot employee tho, I'm sure they have experience with these kinds of situations, so I trust them to come up with a good solution.

SuperLuigiLXIVAug 11, 20151 votes

Okay, so just off the top of my head, Talon's current passive boosts his autoattack damage on CC'd targets. What if, instead, his spells put a stacking debuff on enemies that he hits, which would then be consumed by his next auto/Q? It would need a cap, of course, but maybe it gives him boosted damage, and armor pen, stacking up to X times, with each stack being a bigger amplification than the one before? That way, you're encouraged to all in, build up your passive as much as you can, and finish with a Noxian Diplomacy for one massive smash?

pripustasAug 11, 20151 votes

Ohh, my comment was designed around making this passive work, not creating a new one. I won't bother thinking of a new passive, as there's just many different things you can come up with. Seems like a waste of time.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 11, 201510 votes

Sorry, I wasn't very clear about one part of my response, and that's that I think he would feel and play better with a passive that didn't suggest to him to build Attack Speed to optimize it, but more something that emphasized one significantly stronger attack rather than several slightly stronger attacks.

pripustasAug 11, 20151 votes

Sorry, I meant that it was designed that way. I understand, that you no longer wish this passive to stay this way. The passive he has right now kind of seems like if you would make Riven's shield 0 (+100% ap) ratio. Making her E, or QWR useless. Damn, I have a hard time expressing myself. If something doesn't make sense, let me know.

Troy242621Aug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, I wasn't very clear about one part of my response, and that's that I think he would feel and play better with a passive that didn't suggest to him to build Attack Speed to optimize it, but more something that emphasized one significantly stronger attack rather than several slightly stronger attacks.

What if his passive, instead of getting flat %AMP on application, would apply a Mercy debuff and AAing a target with Mercy on them them would clear the debuff and deal bonus damage?

Seems like that'd fit his style. I completely agree that having an AA-proced effect is perfectly sensible, especially since end game his autoattacks and Q (Also an AA reset) become the source of a TREMENDOUS amount of damage. It does feel really crappy right now, though, and this would feel more satisfying in my opinion because unlike a flat %AMP, you'd actually see it do work.

Plus, on a thematic level, he would be CCing the enemy to make them vulnerable, then going in for his kill, thus granting them "Mercy." He sets up his opportunity, then goes in to assassinate. Seems like it'd gel with Talon's schtick.

CrazedPorcupineAug 11, 20151 votes

What about something like this,

Coup-de-gras: Talon's first attack against a CC'd Enemy (30 second internal cooldown) critically strikes for 150/200/250/300% Damage(doesn't increase with IE) increasing at 7/12/17.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 11, 20155 votes

{quoted}

What about something like this,

Coup-de-gras: Talon's first attack against a CC'd Enemy (30 second internal cooldown) critically strikes for 150/200/250/300% Damage(doesn't increase with IE) increasing at 7/12/17.

i don't know about the idea, but the numbers are hell too high, 300 damage->900 damage with one attack E-> AA +all the kit

{quoted}

Sorry, I wasn't very clear about one part of my response, and that's that I think he would feel and play better with a passive that didn't suggest to him to build Attack Speed to optimize it, but more something that emphasized one significantly stronger attack rather than several slightly stronger attacks.

well how would you give him an autoattack passive without making him depending on attack speed ?

CuixAug 11, 20154 votes

{quoted}

well how would you give him an autoattack passive without making him depending on attack speed ?

Jarvan.

CrazedPorcupineAug 12, 20151 votes

An AA passive that doesn't depend on Attack speed? Oh look, a guaranteed AA boost that has a long internal cooldown, and doesn't proc multiple times per fight.

Also, Talon's Damage full combo landing is pretty outrageously high already, and once he lands on you, there is no stopping him if you're alone.

A Miss FortuneAug 12, 20151 votes

Imagine a late game Talon just walking around and two-shotting everybody that got CC'ed lol.

CrazedPorcupineAug 12, 20151 votes

Talon already has a supremely difficult time against tanks, and he has a hard time escaping from opponents. He's also squishy. he's one of the better balanced assassins in that He can only go one way, IN. Because this is on a 30 second internal cooldown, not a cooldown per unit, he has to select which target he wants to eliminate in a fight. 30 seconds is also roughly the same CD as his ult at 40% CDR. Also, because it doesn't stack with IE and is a guaranteed AA boost for a single auto, it means that one auto essentially becomes a single target spell.

If you want to argue that it'll make him too good at killing squishies, he's already really good at it, his full burst combo is enough to kill anyone with less than 100 armor and 2k hp or less. This simply means that late game, he can do a little better against tanks.

The Blue RajahAug 11, 20152 votes

Well, there's always the classic suggestion of giving him Ashe's old passive. (Guarenteed crit after not attacking for a set period of time). Not great for laning, but fantastic for roams and assassinations, two things that I think really call to Talon.

Cloak an DaggerAug 12, 20151 votes

Thanks for taking time to constructively comment with relevant insight on a Talon thread. There's a first time for everything. On a more related note I agree that his passive seems like it would reward the player for itemizing for sustained damage builds rather than for burst that his kit seems to be tuned for.

If you take note of the assassin AD caster archetype (riven,zed,pantheon,rengar,khazix,yasuo) they all seem to have passives in their kit that help them do their job via an execute or consistent damage steroid.

Troll for TrumpAug 12, 20151 votes

how about you have his passive do something to let him escape. Cuz right now what talon needs most is a reliant way to run away.

Centerpoint360Aug 12, 20152 votes

Attacking a slowed enemy deals bonus damage equal to the slow amount, but removes the slow.

I.e. attacking a target slowed by 50% will deal 150% AD damage. His E slow would have to be nerfed with that... but still. Its an idea.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Attacking a slowed enemy deals bonus damage equal to the slow amount, but removes the slow.

I.e. attacking a target slowed by 50% will deal 150% AD damage. His E slow would have to be nerfed with that... but still. Its an idea.

good idea but what if talon attacks a slowed target by thresh's box? or you mean it only works with talon? i think it's ok because it removes the slow

pripustasAug 12, 20152 votes

His E slow is 0.25 sec, you can't use E and AA in 0.25sec, unless you have a huge atk speed, and the atk speed build wouldn't work, because his E has a long cd. Also it would be counter-productive. He needs the slow to auto attack after the combo, or enemy will run away, but he removes the slow when he auto attacks.

EwigDAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, I wasn't very clear about one part of my response, and that's that I think he would feel and play better with a passive that didn't suggest to him to build Attack Speed to optimize it, but more something that emphasized one significantly stronger attack rather than several slightly stronger attacks.

So something in between J4's and Fiora's passive against cc'd and/or bleeding targets?

KONO RUBICK DAAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So something in between J4's and Fiora's passive against cc'd and/or bleeding targets?

or AA makes targets bleeding adding effects to talon's spell against those target

Q->bonus damage+reveal W->empowered slow E->silence

EwigDAug 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

or AA makes targets bleeding adding effects to talon's spell against those target

Q->bonus damage+reveal W->empowered slow E->silence

So like Daruys+Nidalee passive? I like it, seems to fit his theme by hurting bleeding enemies further.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So like Daruys+Nidalee passive? I like it, seems to fit his theme by hurting bleeding enemies further.

darius passive doesn't empower his spells, it just apply on his ulti (after the rework) nidalee passive is applied by spells

they want to reward talon for autoattacking, but talon only uses spells, i think it's the best thing you can do

EwigDAug 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

darius passive doesn't empower his spells, it just apply on his ulti (after the rework) nidalee passive is applied by spells

they want to reward talon for autoattacking, but talon only uses spells, i think it's the best thing you can do

Hence why I said like Darius+Nidalee? Bleed(Darius) + spells getting empowered effects against marked targets(Nidalee)

ApexInTheCircleAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, I wasn't very clear about one part of my response, and that's that I think he would feel and play better with a passive that didn't suggest to him to build Attack Speed to optimize it, but more something that emphasized one significantly stronger attack rather than several slightly stronger attacks.

So, I have a dumb idea for a passive. And It would be great if you could tell if it sounds good or not.

Talon's new passive involving an amp on all of his skills if certain criteria is met.

Deadly precision .

Q - will hit target immediately upon using E if the enemy has any movement impairing debuff on them. (So if I activate Q and E to a target the damage will be applied immediately)

W- Rake will apply a bleed that does 10% of it's overall damage if it hits a target that has been afflicted by Talon's Q bleed. (I.E an additional bleed effect if he strikes an enemy hit by his Q)

E- Will interrupt an enemy channel If they're afflicted by a movement impairing effect. (kinda requires alittle foresight to use this)

R- If it strikes an enemy who is under a movement impairing effect, applies a debuff for 5 seconds giving you vision on the target. Including stealthed champions.

Potato DocAug 13, 20151 votes

Maybe have it if he auto attacks someone then the next ability would deal increased damage? sort of like lux in reverse?

A Dove Like YouAug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Actually, I think an auto attack passive makes a lot of sense on Talon. That isn't to say his current passive is very good or fun, however. As you've mentioned above, Talon only has one real spell (maybe E does too if you're fast enough?) that triggers his passive, which (again as you've mentioned), for such a measly reward, just leaves it feeling like it's not even there in most cases.

It would be pretty cool if we could figure out a way to modify his passive in such a way that it felt like there were good, rewarding payouts to doing it correctly, because give its current state, satisfaction really just doesn't seem all that possible.

Well you are in luck, seeing as though the two champions i love and main are TF and Talon. I have 1 change that would make his passive infinitely more useful as an incentive to AA more often.

Change it to "Talon's basic attacks deal 10% increased damage to enemies that are slowed, stunned, rooted, suppressed or BLEEDING from Noxian Diplomacy7."

Maybe even give the Noxian diplomacy some sort of special debuff name like BLEEDING that way you can get rid of the "from noxian diplomacy" part.... OR

Change it to "Talon's basic attacks deal 10% increased damage to enemies that are slowed, stunned, rooted, suppressed or under the effects of Damage over Time effects."

I personally like this second one since it gives more synergy with champions that have DoT's and would proc off his Q anyways. This also makes more sense because it would be merciful to put someone out of their misery while they are taking constant damage...

Let me know what you think. I personally would like either of those added and it would hold me over until you get to reworking his kit.

pripustasAug 12, 20151 votes

The passive could be called "Salt in the wound" That would be so cool..

Z46Aug 12, 20151 votes

PJSalt in the Wound.

Need Gold 4 TentAug 12, 20151 votes

Liandry's on Talon! XD

WajsterAug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Actually, I think an auto attack passive makes a lot of sense on Talon. That isn't to say his current passive is very good or fun, however. As you've mentioned above, Talon only has one real spell (maybe E does too if you're fast enough?) that triggers his passive, which (again as you've mentioned), for such a measly reward, just leaves it feeling like it's not even there in most cases.

It would be pretty cool if we could figure out a way to modify his passive in such a way that it felt like there were good, rewarding payouts to doing it correctly, because give its current state, satisfaction really just doesn't seem all that possible.

Talon DOES AA as part of his normal rotation, E-AA-Q-AA-R (or any other variations of this), so an AA passive DOES make sense, just not the one he currently has, which truthfully kinda sucks.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Talon DOES AA as part of his normal rotation, E-AA-Q-AA-R (or any other variations of this), so an AA passive DOES make sense, just not the one he currently has, which truthfully kinda sucks.

E-W-Q-R and you kill someone, you doesn't need to attack and doing AA is risky because the target can flash/dash ect.. away or stun you

{quoted}

Jarvan.

okay, so it's a passive like talon's AA does 30% bonus damage on a cc'ed target: X sec cooldown

Titanium70Aug 12, 20151 votes

OK, I´ve seen so many people unsure about this topic - now (when even a Red is not sure about) I´m testing it myselfe! SO here are our numbers (I did it twice with diffrent AD Values, just for the lulz):

Talon AA: 87 / 114 Talon AA + Slow: 95 / 125 Talon E delay AA: 89 / 117 Talon E instant AA: 98 / 128

It´s obvious: An AA used immediately after E will always proc the passive! ^^

BTW: @RiotRepertoir: It´s really refreshing and unusual to see that much discussion and **invidual ** thoughts coming from a RED! I really hope this wind of change has more of climatic change instead of a squall. ^^ Keep up your great work and let´s hope some others (looking @European Boards) will follow your example. :D (Dont get me wrong, there are alot of Rioters communicatiíng and/or just having fun with the community, but what you started recently... that´s a communities dream. ^^)

foristAug 12, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Actually, I think an auto attack passive makes a lot of sense on Talon. That isn't to say his current passive is very good or fun, however. As you've mentioned above, Talon only has one real spell (maybe E does too if you're fast enough?) that triggers his passive, which (again as you've mentioned), for such a measly reward, just leaves it feeling like it's not even there in most cases.

I am actually very curious as to why you think an auto-attack based passive makes sense on talon. Are you speaking thematically or are you playing him as an assassin who picks extended trades with multiple chances to auto-attack, or is it simply because he is ad, and having the auto attacks of all ad champions buffed makes sense?

Because personally I think talon's passive makes absolutely no sense, but can't be changed because he is pretty much balanced around having a practically non-existent passive.

DoFrAug 12, 20151 votes

but what if he had a Defensive passive, most of the time Talon REALLY struggles during laning phase, and we're talking if he was against a mage that has range and is very careful, you would have close to no backfire, so, i was thinking something under the lines of yasuo's shield, you know how like when you attack yas with full flow it gives him a shield? i'm pretty sure Talon will appreciate such help

that being said

i can't get over the splash art for Dragon blade Talon, and how his body is scarred, maybe all those scares made him tolerate pain more easily (theme wise)

imo Talon doesn't need offensive ability, he can already burst Squishies without the need of his passive

Felyne2Aug 12, 20151 votes

How about something like Lux 's passive but the mark is put on by an auto and proc by an ability. you can put a maximum of 2 marks on a target. However, I think double damage by 2 marks is too much so maybe the second mark will have half the effect. or maybe opposite so the larger portion of the damage is on the second mark. This will give time for the player to react(2 autos are enough time I guess) and Talon needs to risk going up to their face. I don't think this will be oppressive in lane because:

Being in a place where talon can aa you in the first place is bad
If he wont be able to proc his e if he uses it as a gap closer
(I think) his passive will only be used all full strength when he is trying to burst 1 player, his core identity. for trading reasons, We might want a thing where get increased Movement Speed when moving towards a marked target. But, I think this is a bit too much because it is a bit away from his identity, insta bursting a target. We would also want a "window of power" so maybe a CD per target (like stun, dash and knockup) this will enable him to burst but not DPS.

So in short, my idea is a passive which is an OHE mark which stacks up to 2 times and proc by an ability which has a CD per target. However, I would not know how his q will work and probs it will be very buggy even if it did work Sorry for bad English*

pripustasAug 12, 20151 votes

That passive would be as useful as the one he has now. Here's why: if you want to auto attack, you use E to gapclose. While you're auto attacking your enemy will widen the gap, and you can't close it the second time, because your E is on cd. Making the passive useless. Also you can't spend time auto attacking with an assassin in a team fight. You will explode instantly. That is why his current passive makes no sense. He has to auto attack to proc it, but he can't auto attack, because he has no defensive tools.

Felyne2Aug 12, 20151 votes

I dont play talon but I know some parts you can use e to gap close maybe even want to because it is an amplifier(probs should be removed after passive change.) you can E>AA>Q+AA(Q is an AA reset)> item 3077 active then W to proc the passive. I think this is fast enough to burst a target down which is talons job(I think). so q will be used as an AA reset so you can proc the second part of the passive, W is to proc the passive itself or trading in lane without the passive and e should be used as a gapclose with a smaller amp. also I would like the slow to be moved to q and e to have an effect to stop channels (like Viktor Ult)

P.S the max is 2 because I feel there are too many 3 mark and reward thing

pripustasAug 12, 20152 votes

You have to use E to gapclose. It's the only gapcloser he has. That's why wasting time to auto attack is bad. Many champions have dashes/jumps+flash. You know what auto attacking with full AD assassin looks like? Like ADC level 1.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You have to use E to gapclose. It's the only gapcloser he has. That's why wasting time to auto attack is bad. Many champions have dashes/jumps+flash. You know what auto attacking with full AD assassin looks like? Like ADC level 1.

that's why he needs to be rewarded if he lands an AA

Ferus and FerrumAug 12, 20151 votes

Yasuo :D

Forbidden CookieAug 12, 20151 votes

My 2 cents on Talon... he would be a LOT more fun if his ult was a regular ability that was tuned properly. Ult being up or down dictates too much about his play-style, partially because it's his only escape option. Rake with a much longer range and delay before it returns could be the new ultimate that works similar to a Draven ult or Ahri Q. Possibly on a much shorter CD and/or with charges. It even SOUNDS fun imagining cool blade traps hovering everywhere and enemies trying to dodge them based on Talon's position.

Passive can be a reward on next auto attack based on the number of blades that hit an opponent recently. How does that sound to you guys?

GigahappytownAug 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nuclear Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XWEnev68,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-08-12T01:38:14.051+0000)

My 2 cents on Talon... he would be a LOT more fun if his ult was a regular ability that was tuned properly. Ult being up or down dictates too much about his play-style, partially because it's his only escape option. Rake with a much longer range and delay before it returns could be the new ultimate that works similar to a Draven ult or Ahri Q. Possibly on a much shorter CD and/or with charges. It even SOUNDS fun imagining cool blade traps hovering everywhere and enemies trying to dodge them based on Talon's position.

Passive can be a reward on next auto attack based on the number of blades that hit an opponent recently. How does that sound to you guys?

haha no his ult has LITERALLY no cooldown it is always up when you need it.

foristAug 12, 20151 votes

What would help is either a passive designed around resets or mobility or cc immunity. He has plenty of damage, but lacks extended team fight presence and survive-ability. I'm not talking hyper-mobility, he can't play like zed or katarina, but maybe make him more like kha zix or diana, more mobility but a little bit of damage mitigation or even move speed would be good. Maybe try to find a way to reward a talon player for entering the fight and staying a little longer instead of just blowing 1 person up and getting the hell out of there. Also, I mention resets, but lower cooldowns would also help, because he has some of the highest cooldowns of any assassins or even mid-laners.