Will we see mid becoming duo lane after all these changes?

ThePikol·May 17, 2018·72 votes·17,212 views

Wouldn't it be better for adc and supp to go mid now and current midlaners to transfer to bot lane? --- Previously adc and supp went bot because they were supposed to have dragon control (there was nothing on top untill Baron spawned) and assasins went mid to roam on either top or bot. Now dragon is not the only objective to care about, there is also Herold. Adc and support could have easy acces to both of them. --- They wouldn't have problems with warding both sides of river in case of enemy gank. --- They could have easly take turret on the shortest lane. --- Currently supports roam just as much. Being on midlane thay could also help toplaner. --- Current midlaners doesn't really roam to top as often as they used to. Thay usually go bot, so transfering them to botlane wouldn't change much, right? --- After recent jungle experience changes we see some midlaners taking Smite. Being on bot it wouldn't be as effective as Crab is now spawning randomly. So it would be up to jungler if he wants to give Scuttle to one of his laners.

79 Comments

Sex Crazed EveMay 17, 201819 votes

They still go bot lane because of bot towers early debuff. Having two people attack one weak tower is faster than one champion attacking it.

DeusVultMay 17, 20181 votes

most mids can waveclear effectively and safely though. So unlike most adcs who can get pushed under tower, a mage could clear the wave from a distance and keep the enemy from damaging the turret.

that said the bot 5 minute rule should only exist in pro play

VerxintMay 17, 20182 votes

Actually the bot tower 5 minute thing shouldn't exist period and Riot should have made it so certain duo lanes weren't literally impossible to interact with

Electro522May 17, 20186 votes

There's also the fact that both ADC and supp can kind of work off of and with each other to get out of a gank. Mid laners don't have that option, and not too many of them have the tools to get out of a gank in a long lane. Thus mid lane is safest for them due to how short it is.

YumaS2AstralMay 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

There's also the fact that both ADC and supp can kind of work off of and with each other to get out of a gank. Mid laners don't have that option, and not too many of them have the tools to get out of a gank in a long lane. Thus mid lane is safest for them due to how short it is.

Finally, mid lane, because it is the shortest lane, it is the lane where minions appear the fastest.

Because mid laners are level dependent, they need minions to come as fast as possible so they can get as much farm as possible and get levels faster.

Top laners tend to be level dependent too, but top laners generally can compensate for this with other aspects (for example, many of them can build tanky).

IcyPepperMay 17, 201810 votes

Wouldn't it be better for adc and supp to go mid now and current midlaners to transfer to bot lane?

Can we separate the adc and supp role at some point? It'd be nice to have a variety of combinations...

Power CosmicMay 17, 201814 votes

Exactly. Support should simply be a member on the team that can help without much gold, not just a marksman's slave.

IcyPepperMay 17, 20183 votes

I can see so much potential in itemization. Although, since I'm not really a competitive player I can't really speculate balance but I can at least imagine some new ways to play.

However, it's kinda weird that item 3050 works on auto-attacks rather than abilities. I know its predecessors dealt with crit and AP increases, so it's kind of weird that they went straight back to autos only. Hell, with some adjustments it could probably support tanks as well. Why do you get the frost storm? If you're a tank, that's great, but if they cut the effectiveness a bit and made it apply on one ally it could--

I'll stop now. Just really wish there were more items than "Extra ADC item" and "general utility item." More mage/tank/assassin specific support items please! D:

Power CosmicMay 17, 20181 votes

That's possibly a great start, but it would involve many changes to get everything in its right place.

IcyPepperMay 17, 20182 votes

I have no doubt that changing an 8-year dynamic would require much time and resources.

Votable JesterMay 18, 20182 votes

I wonder if it could work for them to just make support items affect how the champion gets gold an experience in general. Like if they made it so they passively get experience and don't take experience from minion deaths around them (so whoever is with them gets all the experience without the support falling too far behind). That would actually make it possible for them to lane with a mage without crippling the mage's leveling.

edit: made a little post to see what people think of this idea here.

Power CosmicMay 18, 20181 votes

I definitely see different supports working better with different partners, so that could definitely be an option.

YogartmanMay 17, 20182 votes

I think you can, but the support goes with the ADC because the ADC is typically the least powerful team member (out of laners) at the beginning of the game compared to mid or top. ADCs in other lanes (especially top lane) are more easily countered with ganks because they don't have the buddy there to "keep them safe".

IcyPepperMay 17, 20182 votes

I know, it's been that way for about eight years now. I know the why, but I can dream that things may eventually change.

CinnaBon KittenzMay 18, 20181 votes

I mean I've had games where i tell my support to help out Vayne top or my ziggs mid while i stay bot surviving and out csing the duo I faced with MF, or Urgot. Its a matter of having a Bottom that can survive early alone and also having a top or mid that need help being "safe" aswell. I get the dreaming, I've dreamt of Supports being a Jungle pet Leashing every single camp and then duo ganking lane while having relic sheild to help the laner cs while the fight goes down or after it ended.

IcyPepperMay 18, 20181 votes

Can we be friends?

Most of my friends need my help holding lane when they play ADC. I don't fault them for it, but I do like roaming more than what's appreciated >.>

CinnaBon KittenzMay 19, 20181 votes

Yes of course you can be friends with me :) [sg-ezreal]

LittleOakMay 17, 20187 votes

I would actually be really interested to see if the gold/resource efficiency of this actually is as good as it sounds. Everything you're saying is technically correct and seems like a better alternative than what the current lane situation is now.

The only problem I foresee with this, which might not be a problem because this was Riot's intention, but this also would fix the jungle more than the jungle changes this patch intended, because I wouldn't feel the need to gank my side lanes, unless I really want the pressure to posture for a bigger objective like Dragon or Herald. Mid lane would be the only lane I would seriously feel the need/desire to gank for. Getting those laners ahead would be massive for my team and in a coordinated 5 man, I would have solo laners play safe champions that scale into late game like Swain, Galio, Gnar, and Shen.

Tychusfindlay918May 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I would actually be really interested to see if the gold/resource efficiency of this actually is as good as it sounds. Everything you're saying is technically correct and seems like a better alternative than what the current lane situation is now.

The only problem I foresee with this, which might not be a problem because this was Riot's intention, but this also would fix the jungle more than the jungle changes this patch intended, because I wouldn't feel the need to gank my side lanes, unless I really want the pressure to posture for a bigger objective like Dragon or Herald. Mid lane would be the only lane I would seriously feel the need/desire to gank for. Getting those laners ahead would be massive for my team and in a coordinated 5 man, I would have solo laners play safe champions that scale into late game like Swain, Galio, Gnar, and Shen.

I wasnt aware gnar was now considered a scaling champion.

If that is the case, his laning would need quite the massive nerf.

Meep ManMay 17, 20181 votes

Gnar has always been a weird champion that doesn't necessarily scale well through ratios, but benefits a lot from certain item effects, such as Frozen Mallet and other effects he can make use of.

BestealMay 17, 20181 votes

True. But in lower elos, on Gnar, your team will almost never play correctly with you. You don't want to play a game any longer than 30 minutes with Gnar, because at that point, you don't do enough damage, you can't tank enough damage, and you can't cc enough either.

Snowman ArcMay 17, 20182 votes

That's why you go full ADC Gnar. Guinsoo, Hurricane and just splitpush. Your dueling power is insane, you will perma kite everyone and take towers extremely fast.

KoKobotoMay 17, 20181 votes

Gnar late game is too risky to be considered as a scaling champion. He's definitely strong because %max health HP is always strong but it's like Urgot you know.

Automated RivenMay 18, 20181 votes

he does scale reletively well into late game. He laning does need a nerf tho. He shouldnt be allowed to level q before level 5 tbh.

Or he should be mega gnar from levels 1-5 and then unlocks mini gnar.

SwiftKitten88May 17, 20185 votes

i read this thread as "how badly can riot fuck up the game with one change everyone fucking said was horrible"

Snowman ArcMay 17, 20183 votes

Even though these kind of changes can bring some excitement back, I don't think it's viable. Currently, since the bottom lane tower has no shield up compared to the others, that's where the duo lane will go. A good bottom lane can take half the tower before 5 minutes, which can't happen in any other lane.

Also, most mages can't play side lanes. The lane is way too big, and any gank attempt will probably lead to them dying, because the tower is far away from the middle of the lane. At the same time, mid is a short lane, which favors short bursty trades, which mages and assassins want. ADCs and Supports want to take advantage of certain situations that lead to extended trades, but having the safety of the tower to fall back on means there won't be much trading going on.

Another thing that will probably negatively impact games is that mid tower going down first means that the map opens up way too much, and now the winning team has more options. Mid tower is important for many things in the game. Losing it means you have less control over the river, less controls over the raptors as well. Therefore, by having duos in a mid lane means that chances are mid tower will be taken first, and the snowball will be even harder, which is something I wouldn't like to happen.

LittleOakMay 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XNRHyLPE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-05-17T15:47:58.299+0000)

Even though these kind of changes can bring some excitement back, I don't think it's viable. Currently, since the bottom lane tower has no shield up compared to the others, that's where the duo lane will go. A good bottom lane can take half the tower before 5 minutes, which can't happen in any other lane.

Also, most mages can't play side lanes. The lane is way too big, and any gank attempt will probably lead to them dying, because the tower is far away from the middle of the lane. At the same time, mid is a short lane, which favors short bursty trades, which mages and assassins want. ADCs and Supports want to take advantage of certain situations that lead to extended trades, but having the safety of the tower to fall back on means there won't be much trading going on.

Another thing that will probably negatively impact games is that mid tower going down first means that the map opens up way too much, and now the winning team has more options. Mid tower is important for many things in the game. Losing it means you have less control over the river, less controls over the raptors as well. Therefore, by having duos in a mid lane means that chances are mid tower will be taken first, and the snowball will be even harder, which is something I wouldn't like to happen.

Firstly, thank you for telling me about the turret shield bot, I had no idea. Secondly, Riot seems to be trying to slow the game down with the changes to jungle and runes and such. With that being the case, wouldn't it probably be better in that case for the duo to go mid? Along with that, wouldn't sending the duo mid to open up the map earlier be the "ideal play"? We are talking about optimizing lanes and resources. Just because the meta now is squishy immobile mid laners today, doesn't mean it will be that way tomorrow. There are plenty of champions played mid that can hold their own top, so they should be able to do the same bot, no?

Snowman ArcMay 17, 20181 votes

Again, a duo mid means that there isn't much lane pressure. You can't really damage the tower before 5 minutes, and you can't take super good trades either. The lane assignment is optimized as it is right now. I could go into detail as to why.

Unker139May 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XNRHyLPE,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2018-05-17T16:06:31.319+0000)

Again, a duo mid means that there isn't much lane pressure. You can't really damage the tower before 5 minutes, and you can't take super good trades either. The lane assignment is optimized as it is right now. I could go into detail as to why.

Maybe a viable strategy is for support to start bottom and shift to support mid after the 5 min mark.

Snowman ArcMay 17, 20181 votes

Nah, the mid laner needs the solo XP, and the ADC needs the protection from the support. Maybe a rotation towards mid lane from the bot duo would be ok, but it still needs way too much to make it solid.

CinnaBon KittenzMay 18, 20181 votes

Just a fun thing to note: My Illaoi and Teemo Top long as i defeat my enemies in the first trade i get top lane tower before 10mins around 7mins in and then i rush rift which i can do myself and use it after i win another trade top lane or when my laner runs off to mid thinking i'm some meta slave. I use rift only then and I get to inhib most times and if not i atleast get the next tower by 14mins in. The idea of towers being a struggle to take down is only because you arent on that thing every single time they arent there to protect it WHILE procing Demolish every single time.

Snowman ArcMay 18, 20181 votes

??? What? You're silver 5, with a 29% win rate on Illaoi. How about you play that shit against some real competition and win some more games first, instead?

Alevity XiakuMay 17, 20183 votes

As mentioned previously, this wouldn't be in favour of midlaners. Mages need the safety of their turret because trades result in, well, getting bursted. Immobile mages wouldn't have anywhere to fall back to on the sidelanes. Midlane is more of a standstill while optimising gold from kills or csing. The sidelanes you can push to tower and attack it because it is safer, it's dangerous to do that in midlane because of the gank points. So that wouldn't be optimal for the adc support set up. Also mid tower falling first creates a huge advantage or disadvantage to map pressure.

Also when you're bot and you push the wave out, there is time to take dragon without worrying about the wave pushing to tower. Mid is a lot shorter, there really isn't time to roam from mid to take dragon especially because an AD champion can last hit more easily to shove the wave when you leave. Having the adc to take dragon is more optimal than a mage or assassin because of their dps. So it wouldn't be better for a mage or assassin to leave bot and help with dragon, that would also take a long time compared to if an adc support came to take dragon.

NyarlathοtepMay 17, 20182 votes

Dunno about that. As littleoak said we should see how things go in order to happen. You also forgot that most mages are mid because its the shortest lane thus the safer considering their immobile (generally speaking) nature.

Handy Sandy May 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Dunno about that. As littleoak said we should see how things go in order to happen. You also forgot that most mages are mid because its the shortest lane thus the safer considering their immobile (generally speaking) nature.

But if the meta moves away from mages and more towards assassins who usually have less trouble escaping ganks, there's a possibility ADCs may actually go mid. Especially since a lot of assassins are melee, they'd have trouble attacking the tower so they don't have to worry much about first tower gold.

NyarlathοtepMay 17, 2018

{quoted}

But if the meta moves away from mages and more towards assassins who usually have less trouble escaping ganks, there's a possibility ADCs may actually go mid. Especially since a lot of assassins are melee, they'd have trouble attacking the tower so they don't have to worry much about first tower gold.

But the meta ISNT revolved around mages. Wtf are you talking about.

"if the meta moves away from mages and more towards assassins who usually have less trouble escaping ganks there is a possibility adc may actually go mid" You mean if assassins go bot? You really need to work on your comprehension skills.

Handy Sandy May 17, 20181 votes

But the meta ISNT revolved around mages. Wtf are you talking about.

For assassins to go bot mages have to be weak enough to not even be worth picking. I never said the meta revolves around mages, everyone knows it's adcs/junglers. I said they're currently the better class in mid over assassins. A quick op.gg tier list/winrate/pickrate shows that the meta is favoring mages right now. If you don't know what op.gg is, it's this site that shows all the league of legends statistics for champions and stuff. It's helpful.

You mean if assassins go bot?

Right now, if an assassin goes bot they'll just lose the game and your mid mage will be able to 1v2 waveclear decently. If mages become weaker you can't do that anymore because chances are, you'll have an assassin mid. Then it'll become much smarter macrowise to put your ADC and support in midlane and your assassin bot. I don't know what was so hard to understand about that. The reason why midlaners aren't already bot is because mages are currently favorable and they don't have the ability to go bot because of a fear of ganks which assassins don't have.

Automated RivenMay 18, 20181 votes

Assassins are way more important mid. They rely on snowballing and if you have them in a side lane you lock half of the map away from snowballing off of. In mid they can roam to help with invades, roam bot, or roam top. If they went bot they are restricted to the bottom half of the jungle and mid. Assassins more then mages need to be in the center of the map in order to function well.

LittleOakMay 17, 20182 votes

Responding to all comments so bear with me if this is hard to read xD

They still go bot lane because of bot towers early debuff. Having two people attack one weak tower is faster than one champion attacking it.

I had no idea Bot tower had a debuff. What is it? I haven't known about it in my 2+ years of playing the game.

You also forgot that most mages are mid because its the shortest lane thus the safer considering their immobile (generally speaking) nature.

SO in regards to this, I was talking with some friends about this topic and it came out that it might end up happening that your mage who used to go midlane would go to a lane depending on what side you start. If you're blue side you would want to send them top so they would still be near a blue buff. Other side you would want to send them bot. Plus bot is considered the "safest lane" as of now because of the limited gank paths, including there are a handful of mages that are played top anyways (Vladamir, Swain, Galio, Karma, Malzahar, Cassiopiea) that are all either tanky enough to survive on their own against other top laners, or have enough mobility to reliably get away if they're good enough. This could be a really fun and interesting change to the meta and match ups, as you wouldn't have mages fighting mages in the early game, it would be mages fighting tanks and hoping to push in and roam to mid with the jungler looking for early kills.

I also dont think it'll encourage junglers to only gank mid either; mid is a short lane.

I would counter this argument with bringing up a handful of junglers that don't terribly care about lane length. Hecarim, Olaf, Warwick, Rammus, Kayn are all champions with enough speed and gank pressure, by the time you see them, you'd be caught out mid. For the second half of your comment, read above about not so squish or immobile mages bot lane.

anmyauntieonpoMay 17, 20182 votes

If mid lane becomes the duo, it will be a sure indication of this games death.

Automated RivenMay 17, 20182 votes

I don't think so, mages go mid because it gives them the fastest and safest access to levels. Having them bot results in them being extremely unsafe in lane and messing up / being outplayed in lane management will result in the lane being frozen against them and being unable to walk up and break the freeze without dying to the enemy jungle and the lane opponent.

It's also going to be much more deifcult to leverage advantages for the duo lane as dives are far harder to pull off midlane due to the close proximity of the secondary tower. Plus supports would gain levels relatively faster and thus making the lane safer. (level 5 vs other lanes 6 instead of 4) the benefits wouldn't be strong enough I don't think.

GreenHydraliskMay 18, 20182 votes

Plus mid lane is the short/ safe lane. If the immobile mage go bot, they will probably get ganked to death.

Fresh UntiltedMay 17, 20181 votes

I think the reason it's still two people bot, is because dragon spawns before 10 minutes. Meta is usually about shoving out the lane and getting tower down, and then rotate to toplane and top to bottom. The ideal play is to have toplane tp to botlane for a clean gank after shoving their lane, and then take bot tower + drake. After that, adc and support recall and go top, while top goes botlane.

Divine WindsMay 17, 20182 votes

If bot is mid, they can still assist on dragon/contest dragon (and herald too) better, the support roams faster to side lanes, and they're going to be much safer mid because of how short the lane is

D4M2X0May 18, 20181 votes

i thought AP champs went mid just for the blue buff, if AP champs went bot then they can also use TP.

ForFoxSakesMay 18, 20181 votes

Just move the AP champ to the laner closer to blue. Blue side they would go top, red side they would go bot

Dabrick01May 18, 20181 votes

I'm also thinking about the shorter lane with fast jgs. Like Hec and Skarner among others could be on top of the ADC before they know it since most are immobile.

I mean, the ADCs in my games can't even get out of a gank that can only come from one side and my supports can't ward that one side anyway. What makes you think that they could somehow ward 2 sides.

Pika FoxMay 18, 20181 votes

Mid is the fastest lane for xp, best lane for gank heavy champs, and best lane for safety to return to tower.

I could see maybe a pyke or bard lane going mid, or maybe a leona. But mages generally arent all that safe, nor are assassins, so they usually need the short lane to help escape fights, and usually need that lv 6 powerspike.

Could it happen? Definitely. Will it? Maybe not yet.

ForFoxSakesMay 18, 20181 votes

Doable but would need a champ who can waveclear and is safe to be in a long solo lane and potentially hold their ground 1v2 if their bot lane doesnt rotate to mid as well. Most midlaner champs need the security of the closer turret

TotalJerkMay 18, 20181 votes

Mid was a duo lane in 2017; don't you remember? Right before the Ardent meta catchup assist exp meant supports could just roam all day and stay at a similar level to their team since they didn't have to farm or soak minion exp. The best way to play support was to effectively be a second jungler and gank endlessly, the most accessible lane being mid.