"Mages use mana to waveclear and do it too often! Nerf mana for all of them!"
Mages need an item or rune that causes their autos to scale off their AP or they won't be able to farm against any AD champ or anyone who doesn't use mana.
And if you're going to raise the price of Lost Chapter to 1300, do the same with Serrated Dirk. AD champs already have an easier time farming because their autos actually deal damage.
o brigid o35 votesIt feels like Riot is saying "Mages should have to auto attack to farm" but mages are intentionally designed to only do real damage by using their abilities. It's why they changed mage auto damage to turrets... because it was so incredibly one-sided against them.
But now Riot's saying, "stop using your abilities to earn gold in lane" but we're expected to use our shitty autos to farm against champions with autos 5+ times stronger???
I can see these changes resulting in a more toxic, Korean-like approach to the game. If your mid mage doesn't get first/every blue buff against a mage who does or any ad champ, they will basically be guaranteed to lose lane. Might as well afk mid like the Koreans do. (which is stupid af and I don't condone afk'ing but jfc it feels so shitty to play mages this season)
MrHaZeYo16 votesThis.
ADCs have been abusing low cost items that stack together but you haven't touched those in months (Zeal items) that also stack with their main damage item (IE) which is also fairly champ.
If you want assassins to see the light of day, make it so they can actually kill the ADC, you don't need to gut Mages mana, you need to do something to the bot lane so it isn't taking over the game so quickly.
HarrowR5 votesStop asking for them to buff assassins,they can delete adcs as it is,a few days ago i played Karthus and their Kha legit one shot me while i had 2600 hp,like one jump one combo dead. Next thing you know they'll be one-shoting tanks
MrHaZeYo2 votesWell, I hate to break it to you but A) Kha is spose to kill you as Karthus and B) it's true, if Assassins truly want to be playable again it comes from nerfing the lane where the priority target resides. Making Mages weaker isn't going to change all that much, specially in regards to what they can now do pre Lv5 with a bigger mana pool in keeping a assassin behind.
I'm all for Mages having to learn to manage their resources, but that statement should hold true to EVERY class in the game. Mages need mana to do damage, Assassins and ADCs and AD Fighters really don't, at least not as much. ADCs and Supports have been dictating this game for awhile.
HarrowR1 votesYes Kha should be able to kill me as Karthus,but to one shot me while i had almost 2x the amount of HP of an regular squishy ADC is ridiculous,prompted he was very fed,it doesn't happen very often
SpongebobIsLife5 votesit's also fair to point out that kha is pretty much the only busted/op assassin at the moment as riot completely overbuffed him.
AirKingNeo11 votesAnd if you're going to raise the price of Lost Chapter to 1300, do the same with Serrated Dirk. AD champs already have an easier time farming because their autos actually deal damage.
Dirk doesn't give CDR, mana, and mana restore. Just damage.
Ionian Vulpix10 votesAnd lethality and the bonus damage passive. But the users of that item don't usually need to manage mana because their abilities just cost less (Talon) or they don't have mana in the first place (Zed).
ValiantKiller6 votes[{quoted}](name=Ionian Vulpix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XJQ31OJx,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-17T22:31:20.964+0000)
And lethality and the bonus damage passive. But the users of that item don't usually need to manage mana because their abilities just cost less (Talon) or they don't have mana in the first place (Zed).
beside 
and 
, 
crying for mana in lane phase special
Somebody Love Me4 votesDon't forget that most assassins start 
so they actually only need to back with 750 g to get the dirk, while mages need to wait for a whole fucking 1300 now
Umery14 votesMages aren't meant to be good early because their the best scaling mid lane champions.
Somebody Love Me5 votesExcept their scaling a joke compared to marksmen unless their names are Azir, Ryze, Cass, and Malz.
Ragnaveil3 votesWhich is a class being looked at maybe around midseason? Realize how close we are to midseason.
Somebody Love Me4 votesThis is the midseason patch they're working on. So in the patch they promised to nerf ADCs, they gut mages instead
Ragnaveil1 votesOk, and where is your proof that this is the midseason patch? I don't see anything in the PBE page saying that its the midseason patch.
Somebody Love Me1 votesthe .8-.9 patch is always the midseason patch, is it not???
Just like the .18 is always the worlds patch
Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votestheir scaling isn't. Its just you thinking in 1v1 situation for no reason [sg-lux-2]
Somebody Love Me1 votesNothing scales as hard as ADCs. It's always been like that. That shouldn't change.
Mages shine in mid game, but marksmen now scale faster, on top of already scaling harder.
AirKingNeo5 votesBut Zed and Talon can't perma waveclear and then ignore their opponent.
Blåbæret10 votesBut Zed and Talon can't perma waveclear and then ignore their opponent.
Lmao. Zed has some of the best wave clear in the game, and it's spammable at no cost.
Spank the Fox7 votesLmao. Zed has some of the best wave clear in the game, and it's spammable at no cost.
Lul except using Zed’s W in lane to waveclear is either asking for death or inability to trade for 20 seconds.
Meanwhile mage waveclear is on 6 second CD.
Also, best wave clear since when? Taliyah holds that crown and can roam better than Zed can ever dream.
BakedLotion5 votesWhy would you need to trade if you already pushed to their tower anyway?
That whole "20 seconds of inability to trade" bullshit has never made any sense.
If you're pushing that hard, odds are, you don't want to trade with them anyway.
AirKingNeo5 votesexcept for the part where Zed's pushing power isn't that good
BakedLotion3 votescompared to who lmfao. He outpushes most midlaners.
NineTailedMystic2 votes"some of" not "the best"
HungryAngry2SPP1 votes[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XJQ31OJx,comment-id=00000000000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T00:58:45.521+0000) Also, best wave clear since when? Taliyah holds that crown
[sg-kiko]
AirKingNeo6 votesThen why isn't Zed being picked? Why is Zed actually out wavecleared?
Zeraon11 voteszeds one of the top picked champions...
Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes[{quoted}](name=Ionian Vulpix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XJQ31OJx,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-17T22:31:20.964+0000)
And lethality and the bonus damage passive. But the users of that item don't usually need to manage mana because their abilities just cost less
This BS, in wich world 
dont manage their mana ??
Teridax6810 votesWhat confuses me is how Riot is doing these sweeping nerfs to mage mana, all supposedly in the name of controlling their high waveclear (as opposed to, I don't know, nerfing specific excessive waveclear abilities), when the largest source of waveclear comes from marksmen, specifically marksmen who purchase Statikk Shiv, and instantly become able to deal massive damage to enemy waves at exactly zero mana cost, even post-nerf. To me, addressing one problematic item that continues to be overpicked among a whole class of champions sounds more economical than performing sweeping stat changes across every character in a roster, and while I do think part of the issue lies with mages as well, I also think that in itself should be addressed with targeted changes to their waveclear effects, rather than the removal of about 200-300 base mana on every mage.
Buffing early mana on mages is simply going to make their poke more oppressive at a time when it should be more tightly controlled, and nerfing their growth so harshly is going to gimp the usage of all of their abilities, not just their waveclear, in addition to forcing them to buy mana. Right now, the lowest base mana on champions is 780.4 on Udyr and Volibear, yet these changes will bring a great deal many mages, i.e. the biggest mana users in the game, even farther below that, with Heimerdinger for example going to end up with 725 mana at level 18. This is madness.
SpecterVonBaren3 votesI actually agree with making waveclear for mages more costly but only if Riot does something about, as you said, waveclear on other classes.
NineTailedMystic1 votesHey, you said something I agree with for once. I hate the design philosophy of "champions who need x stat have the lowest of x stat in order to encourage them to build it". Meanwhile, Jhin for example, has his Q cost 40 to 60 Mana which is a very decent waveclear ability not even counting the rest of his kit, while having a very similar base mana pool to Mages. But after these change, he'll have over 1100 base mana while having comparable waveclear and lower mana costs. While having access to the best mana restoration item in Essence Reaver. You'd think the champions that actually have a dependency on Mana would have the highest base Mana totals, let alone the flavor fail there.
Teridax682 votesAgreed. To some extent, what bothers me isn't just the lower mana on mages (though that's certainly an issue), but the fact that their mana was lowered without major changes to their spell costs. At the end of the day, mana, regen and costs are all based on each other, as well as itemization: for example, a champion with only 100 max mana and 1 mana regen, who consumed 10 mana per spell cast, would be no different in a vacuum from the same champion with 1000 max mana, 10 mana regen, and a 100 mana cost per cast. The difference is, if you have an item in the game that gives +100 max mana, it's phenomenal on the first champion, who gets to double their mana pool, but not all that meaningful on the second, who only gets a 10% increase. I can understand the gameplay reasoning behind reducing the mana pool of mages, if the intent is to make mana purchases more impactful on them, but I still think it's a complete thematic mismatch, and I absolutely hate the idea of mages all being pushed towards itemizing for mana. Moreover, if the intent is to push them towards mana itemization and to nerf their waveclear, then their non-clear abilities should be having their cost reduced: the fact that this hasn't been done suggests that Riot isn't being entirely honest on why they're nerfing mage mana, or simply don't want to make more detailed changes to their mana consumption, aside from reductions to Lux's E costs (which itself defeats the whole purpose of trying to nerf her own notoriously excessive waveclear, and screams of favoritism).
I very much agree that the philosophy of giving champions a stat deficiency, just to create a need to itemize for that stat, is a terrible idea. There's a critical difference between synergizing with a stat and requiring said stat, and while I think the former is good (your champion goes from feeling good to feeling awesome), the latter feels really bad, because until you buy that stat, your champion's gonna feel like shit due to how dysfunctional they are. This is why I especially hate the whole notion of mana problems on champions, because if a champion needs mana items to function, that means their core kit cannot function properly on its own, and that's a crappy feeling. In the end, mana is purchased not because it enables awesome gameplay, but because it makes a problem go away, which I think is the absolute least fun and interesting kind of customization to have.
To go back to the subject of Ahri, which we've talked about a few times before, this is why I think she deserves to not have mana issues, including in lane, because ultimately Ahri as a champion is meant to exude smoothness and freedom, including in lane where she should get to have a good measure of control and agency. Clipping her spell usage by having her chug too quickly through her mana doesn't really feel great for the Ahri player, and I think is a poor balancing lever for whichever excessive safety her kit used to have. I don't know how you feel about her current kit, but it feels like she's been given more interactivity and skill expression, which in turn allowed her W mana cost to be less ridiculous. These mana changes are likely to give her a bit more freedom in lane, but I feel it's going to be annoying as hell if she finds herself forced to run a mana item later on just to be able to do her thing.
Blåbæret9 votesLmao, let them continue to nerf mages already in a garbage state. Let them keep at it. Soon we'll have ADCs in all lanes.
TwitchInMyPants9 votesHonestly you can't just remove the most universal mana option (Morello), nerf all of the other mana options, and then nerf every mage's mana all in a couple patches like this. Mages are going to struggle dramatically and those that don't are going to be a select few that are really mana efficient or were overtuned anyway and those were probably the mages that should've been targeted in the first place.
I guess this is going to come along with adc nerfs right after so mages and adcs shouldn't be too far from each other in power, but they're acting like manaless casters, assassins, and fighters won't be able to compete with mages that aren't already efficient lane bullies. The meta is going to flip on their head and they're digging themselves quite a hole to solve the issue of some mages having an absurd mana pool.
The reason mana issues being solved with one component was ok for years is that you'd invest 700-820 gold on something that only gives mana wheras your lane opponent can spend that amount and more on AD/AP and get direct combat power. If you're mana dependant by nature you're already behind on the power curve of items due to your dependancy and Archangel's Staff exists as late game compensation for spam mages that need it. Forcing everyone to buy Archangel's then making it suck is just going to convince people to switch champions or demand buffs.
Banbutsu Sozo1 votesYou mean this? 
Have you played the game recently?
xP
TwitchInMyPants6 votes[{quoted}](name=Banbutsu Sozo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XJQ31OJx,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-04-18T01:25:49.206+0000)
You mean this?
Have you played the game recently?
xP
Are you daft or something
That item is not this https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/726420442609795073/3GTY9wHP.jpg
Its not the item we've had since S2 that's been the core 20% CDR item and choice for low spam mages for years
You know, the item everyone bought
That item you posted is a reworked version of Morello that only a handful of champions buy, like anyone who played on any patch before Morello was basically deleted as a mana option knows how significant it was to the game's pacing
Banbutsu Sozo4 votesOh wow. I completely misread your post by skim reading it. I thought you referenced morellos for mana and I'm like "that Morellonomicon doesn't exist anymore."
I have no idea how I interpreted it like that. I completely agree with you. Sorry about that. [zombie-brand-facepalm]
SpongebobIsLife1 votesidk if i said since s2...Athene's Unholy Grail was the go to item until s5 i think it was??
Ragnaveil5 votesYou act like they are trying to fully gut mages. From what I read, they basically buffed mana regen and mana pool of the mages being affected by the change. Also gave it D-shields bonus 5 dmg to minions, which i'd rejoice if I was a mage player who suffers from missing last hits and tries to spam spells to get the last hits. At least they haven't attempted to nerf aniva's godlike late game ult. They are trying to open more options for early game starting items. I recall certain mid champs on that list had common starting items of Seal+Refillable and suffered due to their mana regen and the lack of a D-ring. This change makes it so they dont have to be tied buying it on second back. I honestly welcome the change. And i'm pretty sure they said they would look at ADs in the midseason. Also tabis just need a new effect instead of this % reduction against autos so it's an easier item to balance and let assassins who need autos laced in for damage to be alright. (I.E Talon, Zed, S-Kayn, etc.)
LightIsMyPath6 votes"buffed mana pool".. Lol. Please go ahead and do some math at level 18. "anivia godlike ulti" won't even be able to resist a siege now cause she'll go oom
Ragnaveil3 votesOkay...so champs might have lost a bit of mana late. In return, they got more early. And last time I recall, Aniv hasn't stopped buying Seraphs and ROA. And blue buff and the 500 g blue elixir do exist (Blue elixir grants mana regen)
LightIsMyPath3 votesSorry but half your mana pool if you are not buying seraph is not "a little bit". And the Nerf starts at level 5/6. Is that late game? Anivia has a smaller hit thanks to her build but she is designed to hard counter sieges and to control fights and reducing the duration in which she's allowed to do it is a plain Nerf. Blue buff is not guaranteed to be on midlane in solo Q (and this puts even more lane agency on the jungler). Basically everyone and their mother will be forced into seraph now, which was the item creating problems in the first place..
Ragnaveil1 votesOk, and the reason i'm not harping on this a huge ton is: A. I'm not a midlane player, and the only AP mage I play is Swain. B. It's a PBE change subjected to change with feedback. Sorry if my initial comment had you jumping off the rails.
LightIsMyPath4 votesNp I'm just salty. These changes are aimed to .. 2/3 champions? And they affects everyone else. They even don't consider mana costs at all. The gap between good waveclear and bad one will be even more pronounced, and the class as a whole will be weaker late game due to limited mana and even mid game (their supposed time to shine) due to awkard build paths/possible need to buy 2 mana items.I just don't understand what they want to do and literally every champion I enjoy in the game is a mage... I'm pretty scared
SaltLord4515 votesI guess Riot wants Zed played in the LCS LUL
Wolfeur3 votesMages need an item or rune that causes their autos to scale off their AP
??
Mig892 votesThey need an item or rune that works with their kit. Nashors is extremely niche.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes[{quoted}](name=Ionian Vulpix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XJQ31OJx,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-17T22:17:14.880+0000)
"Mages use mana to waveclear and do it too often! Nerf mana for all of them!"
Mages need an item or rune that causes their autos to scale off their AP or they won't be able to farm against any AD champ or anyone who doesn't use mana.
if you last hit, you gain mana with the doran change.
And if you're going to raise the price of Lost Chapter to 1300, do the same with Serrated Dirk. AD champs already have an easier time farming because their autos actually deal damage.
easier ??? ofc, cause its more likely you will be under turret when facing an Ap and contrary to mage u need to go at melee range to farm most of time.
SpongebobIsLife4 votesuhh you do know they removed the 5 mana gain from killing a unit as well as the 50 percent base mana increase? You are completely losing out on these D-ring changes. I do like the addition of 5 damage of minions; however, I am mad that they removed 5 damage to minions from everyone, just to gut d-ring, the +5 damage on it, and then use that as an excuse to say it's balanced now.
