What are Lee Sin's weaknesses?

Ionian Vulpix·Feb 13, 2017·128 votes·7,037 views

Well, early game he doesn't do much dama--huh, nevermind.

Okay, well late game he'll pop in teamfights since he won't be very tan--oh.

The important thing to remember is that, yes, Riot lets him do damage and be tanky, but this is balanced by a lack of CC in his ki--s***.

Well, despite the CC, damage, and tankiness, he really has a hard time getting onto his targets due to his lack of mobi--f***.

Yes, it seems like he has it all, but in prolonged fights he falls off due to his lack of shields and sust--ugh.

Okay, but the problem with Lee is that he has to manage his abilities carefully, since he's gated by mana cos--oh Jesus.

184 Comments

IA9hRfpP5qFeb 13, 2017110 votes

he is blind

Glory to GodFeb 13, 201774 votes

But only in my team.

PhoenixOfHeavenFeb 13, 201711 votes

His weaknesses include bright colors, strong smells or loud sounds, poles, and walls.

Rude NameFeb 14, 201711 votes

loud poles

Colgate GatorFeb 13, 201759 votes

His main weakness is his players' stupidity.

That's it, in order to win agaisnt a Lee Sin you have to hope he can't land a line skillshot and gives in to the primal urge of making LCS plays.

EndlessSorcererFeb 13, 201712 votes

Sadly, RQQ is almost unmissable and kill most squishies.

SoryInAdvanceFeb 13, 20177 votes

"unmissable" as a bronze player, i can say that that's far from true.

AimléssFeb 13, 20173 votes

R can't be dodged as long as you ward dash to them and get in range its an auto knock back stun that makes missing your q impossible on anyone not brain dead.

EndlessSorcererFeb 13, 201721 votes

"Undodgeable" then.

You can't avoid it, but the player can miss it.

LA LostyFeb 14, 20173 votes

Well if you have good mechanics you can qss the kick cc and interrupt the knockback with a dash. But thats probably mostly used in the higher elos where i play, cant imagine plats or below using it much :/

AckelopeFeb 14, 20173 votes

the frequency with which that can happen is pretty damned low, both because it's mechanically difficult to pull off, and because once you get to that point, people start playing around summoner spells and cooldowns more effectively and will think about burning their ultimates/whether it's worth it. I've not seen this happen even in challenger and LCS games, so it's pretty niche.

lilycuFeb 13, 201717 votes

He is trash against fizz because he can't sea

BârdFeb 13, 201717 votes

He has damage early and mid game, but is in the same boat with Pantheon when late game comes.

He DOES die quickly in team fights if you focus him down. He isn't as squishy as an ADC, obviously, but he is no tank. The current most common Lee build is item 1408 item 3117 item 3071 item 3742 item 3156 item 3026 .

Only two of those items are full on defensive, and one of them not only has a cooldown but also sets him up to get burst down again when it revives him.

He doesn't have that much CC. His E doesn't really count, since that slow sucks ass. Besides that, he has one cc spell. Yes, it's a good one (if they position in a way that allows you to use it well), but he is hardly Nautilus.

He DOES have problems in sustained fights. Most of Lee's damage is burst. His sustained damage isn't the worst out there, but it's pretty far down there as far as fighters go. Lee doesn't GET a shield in most fights, since the shield just doesn't happen if he uses W to ward hop (which he most likely will). 30% lifesteal and spell vamp is significant, but since his sustained damage is so mediocre, he doesn't benefit too much from it.

Have you ever played an energy champion? It doesn't seem like you have, if you think that he can just "Hurr Durr no cost spells yayyy!". No. Energy champions don't have to manage their resources much outside of fights (laning, farming, etc) but in exchange they have it MUCH harder when it comes to in combat resource management. In the case of Lee Sin, each spell costs 15-25% of his resource pool. If he spams, he runs OOE and dies. His passive helps, but not so much that he can just mindlessly face roll.

I'll give you mobility. He is certainly fast.

Seriously, you didn't even TRY to think of weaknesses. You literally just listed his strengths (and misrepresented them quite a bit at that).

w/e

Glad to see the anti Lee circlejerk is alive and well

Attticus FinchFeb 13, 201715 votes

He's average at everything.

Bruisers will duel him, carries will out DPS him and tanks will out-tank him.

NichtHurzFeb 14, 20173 votes

Well, the main things about being able to play Lee are:

Having the mechanics and knowledge to use these
Know when to change your playstyle according to the phase of the game

Sure, these are standard things, but even more important with Lee than with most champs. Lee just is too good at too many things. He's an early game powerhouse with huge damage, transists to kind of an mobile engage fighter in mid game and becomes a utility off-tank in late. The problem about him his, if he plays carefully and knows his champ well enough to be reliable, he's the only to be able to really counter and kill himself. He might not be the best at anything, but he's the best at being a little bit of everything, while still having a very clear path to go throughout the game.

HethaleanFeb 13, 201712 votes

Lee Sin's damage will either be high (cuz he built full damage) then he should just pop when he tries to get a pick, or it falls off pretty well cuz he built full damage so his teamfights includes flashing in and trying to ult someone back into his team like a glorified Urgot. 1v1 he'll still take out carries though if he catches you out, but that's most fighters.

CrimsonReapsFeb 13, 20174 votes

The problem is his damage even if full tank Isn't low in most of the games I see, I think they need to remove that missing health scaling on his Q and change it to just doing more if he takes it. I see Lee's Out doing assassins in damage even when there built full tank.

Asayake 5150glowFeb 13, 20179 votes

{quoted}

The problem is his damage even if full tank Isn't low in most of the games I see, I think they need to remove that missing health scaling on his Q and change it to just doing more if he takes it. I see Lee's Out doing assassins in damage even when there built full tank.

No, I think we need to change the 340 base damage on his Q not even including any %missing health -_-

That's higher than the abilities of Juggernauts, I believe.

TotalJerkFeb 13, 20173 votes

If anything I think they should up the % missing health scaling and decrease the base damage. Making part of its damage budget % missing health scaling means he does more damage with it if he uses AFTER he goes in and lands a full rotation than if he uses it to initiate.

Lee Sin with it: Ward W>E>Q>R>Q. Ends up having to blow both of his mobility spells and a ward to dive a target optimally. Lee Sin without it: Q>Q>E>R. He ends up having safeguard to get out if he needs to.

Also since shifting more of it's damage to % missing HP it makes Lee Sin a worse at poke and short trades against healthy enemies.

ParoeFeb 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin's damage will either be high (cuz he built full damage) then he should just pop when he tries to get a pick, or it falls off pretty well cuz he built full damage so his teamfights includes flashing in and trying to ult someone back into his team like a glorified Urgot. 1v1 he'll still take out carries though if he catches you out, but that's most fighters.

item 3071 item 3156 item 3065 item 3143 item 3742 item 1001 Lee sin now has 250+AD and enough resistances to be "a tank".

You dont seen to understand that lee sin has very high base damage and very high ratios...

bbQsauçeFeb 14, 20172 votes

[deleted]

ParoeFeb 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=bbQ s,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IGcWQl08,comment-id=000200020001,timestamp=2017-02-14T00:36:45.509+0000)

Wtf is that build? Bronze lee sin top? Where's the jungle item?

Lee isnt ALWAYS a jungler, and you shouldnt be keeping your jungle item forever...

AirKingNeoFeb 14, 20175 votes

Actually you should keep your jungle item, ESPECIALLY ON LEE, because the smite upgrades (especially Red smite but ward smite for lee).

LA LostyFeb 14, 20172 votes

If anything he should sell boots.

Starcraft243verFeb 13, 20177 votes

Be honnest, his only CC is his ult.

Plus he is blind.

YumaS2AstralFeb 13, 20174 votes

His only hard CC is his ult.

Because his E is also a CC (slow).

SpoofghoulFeb 13, 20177 votes

well for starters

LeeSin can't see Irelia 's butt or MissFortune chest

i'd say those are some pretty major weaknesses

Sraeg2013Feb 13, 20175 votes

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnZEBbuXgAAs9RD.jpg

TotalJerkFeb 13, 20174 votes

His weakness is basically his ult downtime. He struggles to contribute anything in the lategame when it is down.

ElikainFeb 13, 20174 votes

What are Lee Sin's weaknesses?

He's blind.

#What are his strengths?

He isn't deaf.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/d/d9/Illidan.png/revision/latest?cb=20140503134345

DragonSheaFeb 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

He's blind.

#What are his strengths?

He isn't deaf.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/d/d9/Illidan.png/revision/latest?cb=20140503134345

We have never been prepared.

RcGjWO640wFeb 13, 20173 votes

Lee Sin is actually a pretty "Meh" champion without the mechanics to utilize his kit properly.

In fact, InSec is really the one who popularized Lee Sin's place in the competitive scene by showing off the crazy things you can do with his kit. Things that are considered staples of Lee today like ward-hopping into his titular move, the "Insec", where you hop or flash behind behind the enemy team and kick the carry into yours.

Ionian VulpixFeb 13, 201743 votes

Wasn't Azir also balanced around "being difficult to play?" And we all know what happened to him. Ease of play should not be a factor in how much power they have.

RcGjWO640wFeb 13, 20174 votes

And we see what happened to Azir too. He was literally pick/ban for two seasons before Riot nerfed him into the ground. He was an unstoppable monster in the LCS that literally destroyed everyone. I played Azir a lot at the height of his power and after ~100 games with him, you start to figure out how he works and he's just scary.

He was, rather. Now he's just unplayable and he'll stay that way until they rework him. They simply can't afford Azir becoming the Season 3 Renekton of mid lane. Basically, a meta of, "If it can't lane vs Azir, it's not viable mid." which did happen for a while.

Ionian VulpixFeb 13, 201719 votes

And the jungle is dictated by Lee Sin. If they can't survive an invade from him or keep up with his gank pressure, they aren't viable. I'm surprised Shaco hasn't been used more against him since his early game cheese is just as strong as Lee's, albeit with an even worse late game.

DaNinadFeb 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Wasn't Azir also balanced around "being difficult to play?" And we all know what happened to him. Ease of play should not be a factor in how much power they have.

zed.

LA LostyFeb 14, 20175 votes

Zed was quite strong when they first changed qss, and had a high banrate because people disliked playing against him. But he was never as strong as Azir, who brought immense utility such as engage and disengage as well as way better lategame power to the table. Iirc Zeds winrates havnt been anything special either. Even when he was banned a lot his winrate was around 50% i believe and it still is.

SwordOfWarFeb 14, 20173 votes

He doesn't have any weapons not even a sword. What a CHUMP!

ScarletSurgeonFeb 14, 20172 votes

His biggest weakness is that he can run out of wards. DUH!

RequiemsfireFeb 14, 20172 votes

In team fights Lee sin is melee making him prone to being focused, relies on a stamina bar which doesn't scale, if he misses his Q, he can't engage or really do anything unless an opportunity presents itself and if he fails he simply dies. Lategame comes and his team will now rely on his kick to work because he hasn't got something like Elise's cacoon, Hecarim's charge, or Ivern's Q to lock down or disrupt team fights.

Glory ln DeathFeb 14, 20172 votes

Lee Sin's immune system is rather underdeveloped. Specifically, he is extremely weak to the disease commonly known as "Lee Syndrome".

In other words, Lee's weakness is stupid Lee players.

DoozkuFeb 13, 20171 votes

He ceases to exist past the 25 minute mark

Dominick DestineFeb 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

He ceases to exist past the 25 minute mark

People that have parsed it have discovered that Lee Sin scales harder than 90% of the cast of characters. His ratios, ASPD and passive all allow him to ONLY be cleanly outscaled by hyperscalers like Nasus, Vayne, Kog, etc.

five oh tree Feb 13, 20172 votes

It's not about ratios, it's the playstyle. Same reason wukong's attack speed buff on his e is almost pointless late game; He has to do his full combo fast enough to take them surprise so that it is effective. Late game teamfights he's not going to weave in 6 autos on a squishy. He'll get cc'd and 5 shotted by the ad carry if he does that. He can't even kill some squishy champions with his ideal combos because they'll just kill him faster.

Don't compare damage outputs of other classes and divers. All other divers' damages scale so much harder into the late game despite his ratios. They all end up being able to do their job better than him. Camille? Wukong? Diana? They do fewer things than lee, but they're MUCH better at those things than lee is.

Scaling isn't just about damage. It's about how spammable something is, how easy it is to apply/hit, and how much danger comes with using it. Lee's entire kit is suicidal and dangerous late game. Wukong can just w-> ghostblade -> e -> r and he succeeds late game and does massive damage. It doesn't matters that he has a lot of potential damage in perfect scenarios. If it did matter that much, we'd see much heavier AD builds than we do. Late game, he is weaker than a lot of other champions. He just can't duel divers, skirmishers, or juggernauts late, his cc isn't great, and he offers very little utility to his team. He's never going to be able just sit and auto an adc to death, beause 2 seconds of cc late game is his death.

Dominick DestineFeb 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Time And a Half,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IGcWQl08,comment-id=001500000000,timestamp=2017-02-13T22:38:45.275+0000)

It's not about ratios

Actually it is, the basis for raw scaling IS about ratios... and Lee Sin has very high ratios on his abilities.

Don't compare damage outputs

Nonsense... you're an apologist.

Scaling isn't just about damage.

Trololol detected.

late game, he is weaker than a lot of other champions.

Yes, he is cleanly outscaled by hyperscalers, but that comprises only a very small group of champions.

Lee Sin is BRAINLESSLY easy to play and brokenly overpowered, he needs some hard nerfs.

five oh tree Feb 14, 20172 votes

Look at all the work lee puts in late game with those massive ratios. Nothing. His damage turns to shit. His shield is tiny. His cc is mediocre.

Scaling is about playstyle as well. Combine all the ratios in nidalee's kit. Wow it looks amazing! let's look at her fucking garbage ass winrate of 43%. Nautilus is complete shit though lategame, right? because his ability scalings aren't that high yeah?

It's not only hyperscalers that are outscaling him. Renekton beats him in a duel late game for fucks' sake, and he falls off. He's outscaled by basically the entire damage-building roster. most mages. all adcs. most divers. All skirmishers. most juggernauts.

So if he's so ridiculously broken, why is his winrate shit until a player has pretty much completely mastered him? It doesn't break 50% til the player has 50-125 games. So easy to play well with his broken-ness.

You didn't even try to form arguments here. You just threw out opinion and didn't back it up with logic, statistics, or comparisons.

I'm so genuinely confused with who you believe he outscales. Pantheon maybe? Jayce or something?

Bears Dont CareFeb 13, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IGcWQl08,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2017-02-13T22:24:33.359+0000)

People that have parsed it have discovered that Lee Sin scales harder than 90% of the cast of characters. His ratios, ASPD and passive all allow him to ONLY be cleanly outscaled by hyperscalers like Nasus, Vayne, Kog, etc.

I really wish that myth would end. "Lee sin falls off damage wise cause he builds tank." Yeah..so does Ryze if Ryze only builds tank items. He scales hard...