"Talon and Zed are struggling...let's buff Lethality!"

Malicious Metal·Feb 7, 2017·89 votes·5,612 views

Oh gee, not like would abuse the ever-living shit out of it, right? Not like some classes can't have nice things because of abuse cases (cough cough)

98 Comments

Over InnsmouthFeb 7, 201781 votes

Way too often, Marksman are the reason we can't have nice things.

LostFr0stFeb 7, 20178 votes

I guess Ezreal has friends now we can blame instead of just him every time.

Over InnsmouthFeb 7, 201725 votes

Amusingly, Ezreal doesnt even abuse Lethality as much as others. He still wants his Sheen + Tear items first, and then (I think, I don't play Ezreal) you grab your Lifesteal and LW and whatnot.

LostFr0stFeb 8, 201722 votes

IKR. I was indeed referring to the past where he broke almost every item Riot came out with.

It must be integrated into their check-list by now to check every new item by building it on Ezreal during at least one playtest and to modify the item accordingly.

vOmvbrawfUFeb 8, 20172 votes

Literally all they have to do is remove his on hit Q. No more Ez breaking items. Shit, buff the Q after, idc. But I'm tired of an Ez with no items but a tear and a tank (bruiser, whatevs, still a tank item) item just straight out damaging everything.

LordGeovanniFeb 9, 20171 votes

that wouldnt fix anything because his q is still such a low cooldown and he gets attack speed from landing spells and they arent particualrly hard to land with their travel time being so fast.

vOmvbrawfUFeb 9, 20171 votes

Do you know how much his damage would decrease if Qs didn't proc on hit items? Lots. And he would lose the stupid perma slow lol.

LordGeovanniFeb 9, 20171 votes

i know it would decrease alot IF he only plays safe poke style but if he auto attacks right after he used q he doesnt lose any damage he actually gains damage because now he is useing his autoattacks. And id like to point out out of all champions who still reduce coodlowns through casting spells Ezreal Zilean Taric ezreal is the only one who still decreases his ult cooldown and its the lowest cooldown ult of these champions

vOmvbrawfUFeb 9, 20171 votes

And if he is playing aggressive enough to be auto attacking you after Qing, you can fight him easily. And most likely win.

LordGeovanniFeb 10, 20171 votes

assumeing you run to him he kites you if you use an engage spell before your spell even reaches ezreals start their essence flux to get away so even if you do the damage to him the second you do he is out of range again and safe to continue healing up the damage you just managed to do slightly with lifesteal from item 1055 if not another later lifesteal item

CresmontFeb 8, 20175 votes

wouldnt ezreal be a good counter to the lethality adc meta?

rushing gauntlet gives you a chunk of armor that practically negates their first 2 items and it gives you more kiting and chasing potential since lethality users tend to be skirmishing casters (lucian, jhin, etc)

LordGeovanniFeb 9, 20171 votes

thing is lethality adc meta doesnt effect other adcs much just every other class of champion that cant poke or dps as effectively from RANGE (real important word there).

RalanrFeb 8, 20174 votes

I mean when you have an offense class that scales with items it makes sense that they'd be the first to break offense items.

Jeddy017Feb 8, 201714 votes

If only there was some way to stop marksman from ruining items meant for melee champs. Like if there was some feature that prevented ranged champ from buying them in the 1st place. Maybe something 2 words like, oh I don't know, "Fuck Off" (to ranged champs).

Steel BlossomFeb 8, 20175 votes

Yeah, too bad "melee only" isn't an option in this game, eh. TOO. FUCKING. BAD. RIGHT. RIOT!

Jeddy017Feb 8, 20173 votes

But no, item diversity for ranged champ is oh so more important than the balance of items for melee champs.

Votable JesterFeb 8, 20173 votes

Limiting items buys by the range of the attacker, especially such a powerful item could warp champion design in the future. Do you think they'd create a ranged ad assassin if, for example, the lethality items were melee only? I'm all for having diminished effects on ranged item though, like if they reduced the duration of the spell shield or something like that.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 8, 20174 votes

they could... like item 3748 item 3074

Or they could just revert lethality formule for ranged

Sona PingFeb 7, 201732 votes

AD casters are building items that are good on AD casters

Why are we surprised by this?

SEKAIFeb 8, 201715 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XHv9H6E8,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-02-07T23:55:51.292+0000)

Why are we surprised by this?

The point is, if Zed and Talon are struggling, just buff them instead of buffing a certain aspect on them that's also shared by other people.

"AD casters are building items that are good on AD casters"

Yes, which is why if others besides the ones intended for balance changes also receive buffs for no reason, they become too good, and it's trouble.

Sona PingFeb 8, 20175 votes

I agree. If those two were supposed to be buffed, then just buff those two champions.

However, who and were did it say the Lethality change was only for Zed and Talon? Riot said they were buffing marksmen because it was needed and that is what they have been doing. Patch 7.1 buffed Draven Lucian Kalista 7.2 buffed Lethality which buffs the builds used by AD Caster Marksmen and this trend is continuing with 7.3 buffs to Tristana and nerfs to champions like Jayce who can use those builds but don't need buffs but the opposite, tuning them down instead.

I don't see how Riot wouldn't be seeing this and not intending it.

Supreme Senpai69Feb 8, 20176 votes

I'd like to meet the idiot who buffed Draven and then buffed lethality. Level 1-2 his AAs deal 150 damage.

When you only have 600-650 HP.

AnidanFeb 8, 20173 votes

That's just Riot balancing. Been that way for... well, I imagine you've actually been playing League a few years so I'm sure you know already that this isn't anything new for Riot. I'm starting to wonder if there hasn't been a study done yet that sets out to assert whether it's better to have a balance team or a one-man operation for that role, because if there isn't then I kind of want to see one made.

Because it's not just Riot that has these weird patches where balance seems to shift erratically or people get nerfed despite just a few days ago a member of the dev team saying they were perfectly fine - because Blizzard does this as well. That's not even getting into FPS games (of which Blizzard is also guilty of weird balance there, too, with Year of the Roadhog event currently going on effectively) and other fun genres that tend to have either a larger team dedicated to balance changes or just one man for the role.

And no, I'm not trying to say DotA2 can do no wrong in the balance department either (it's had its share of mis-steps), I'm just curious about whether it's better to have a smaller, more centralized unit for balance or a larger team. Because smaller centralized groups/people seem like they work better. Or I could just have a confirmation bias that I want eliminated, who knows.

Supreme Senpai69Feb 8, 20171 votes

I feel like it's to keep the game fresh. Things change, champions shift in and out of power, it keeps people talking about the game. Forced, artificial changes for no reason other than for the sake of change. It just sucks because at a certain point you're compromising game health. If a game is so miserable to play... people won't. I've already found myself playing less and that's saying something considering I've played through the days of OP zed and devourer Yi.

AnidanFeb 8, 20175 votes

It's funny, because the art department is very, very good for the most part (barring a few mis-steps, but even then after the community points it out they generally fix it in quick order - showing that the art team does value community feedback), but the balance team... well, I distinctly remember a Rioter saying, after Sejuani's nerfs during the Cinderhulk period, "Sejuani had her time in the limelight" and that basically boils down anything there is to say about the balance team.

Sraeg2013Feb 8, 20172 votes

Because doing so would be too easy and too logical. Can't be real, must be a trap.

TyrekGoldenspearFeb 7, 201710 votes

Guess the Lethality makes your paper mache armor feel like wet paper mache huh?

Malicious MetalFeb 7, 20178 votes

I'm not even mad, I'm using Pentakill Mordekaiser. Makes sense seeing that he's not wearing an awful lot of armor in that skin :^)

JmmanFeb 7, 20172 votes

Just wait till a zed is running at you with Edge of night on.... and your an immobile mage, slow as crap and the only way to stop the extra run speed from the items is a CC spell........

ChaddyFantomeFeb 7, 20176 votes

Quinn always built lethality even when it was weak, she plays like an assassin. Calling her an abuse case seems misinformed to me.

Malicious MetalFeb 7, 201710 votes

I just included her since she's rocking a 56% win rate ever since the lethality buffs

SexualsaurusFeb 8, 20172 votes

Thats only on Euw, she has a 53% win rate across all regions. But yeah they buffed the items way too much, lethality could use a bit of a toning down.

KoKobotoFeb 8, 20172 votes

I don't think any champion abuses lethality but I do believe RIto are dumb af when it comes to balancing. I also think the assassin playstyle isn't healthy for her with her current kit because it's way too binary and easy to pull off. Drive in with R Q Auto dead and run out with M/S from her passive.

raffleszFeb 8, 20175 votes

Agreed miss fortune is absurd right now. I really think shes stronger than even jhin. Bullet time just auto wins teamfights. Full build an ult will do nearly 6000 damage...

KoKobotoFeb 8, 20175 votes

"Junglers are too strong atm so let's nerf the entire jungle!" Nunu Kindred Nidalee Chogath Aatrox MasterYi Evelynn Udyr Volibear and any other jungler that's not "OP" item 3070

Divers and early game ganking junglers are the main issue with how easy it is for these champions to snowball games, by utilizing their engage based kits/ridiculous amount of damage in the game/jungle gold&exp

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 8, 20171 votes

Evelynn wasnt in a bad spot. Chogath isnt a jungler (no his main job). Divers arent the mains issue as class.

Divers jungler Vi Xin Zhao Nocturne Pantheon Jarvan Wukong Warwick Elise Hecarim Lee Sin Aatrox Evelynn Diana

only three were a problem (from divers class).

but i agree with the first statement

"Junglers are too strong atm so let's nerf the entire jungle!" and any other jungler that's not "OP"

KoKobotoFeb 8, 20172 votes

I just looked at every champ with low winrate and stuck em on. Although Hecarim, Vi and Lee Sin are the biggest issues they are also the most prevalent and eat out other junglers most of the time.

YOLO420SWAGSCOPEFeb 8, 20174 votes

they shouldve just buffed zed/talon instead of buffing their items...

Lv1 Facecheck GGFeb 9, 20173 votes

"Markmen are garbage. There's no point in using them because mages can outperform." -January 2017 "Some marksmen are going to be buffed by these lethality changes. GG NO RE" -February 2017

I swear, it feels bipolar sometimes in the community.

DaNinadFeb 8, 20172 votes

Rip vayne twitch and the rest of the late game carries, hello mf and draven

Troll for TrumpFeb 8, 20172 votes

ayyy welcome to the club uneeded item 3142 changes uneeded item 3035 changes uneeded item 3071 changes item 3022

and the worst offender

item 3075 Ashe

PermabannedGarenFeb 8, 20174 votes

{quoted}

ayyy welcome to the club uneeded changes uneeded changes uneeded changes

and the worst offender

Thornmail got exactly what it deserved. Actually, what it deserves is being deleted from the game.

JunkοFeb 8, 20175 votes

I'm surprised Thornmail even exists. All it does is make Rammus and very late game armor tanks completely toxic for the game.There is no other situation in which you would get Thornmail ever, it is useless without so much armor that the ADC kills itself, but in that case it is too strong.

VoidStaresBackFeb 8, 20172 votes

Implying Quinn hasn't always been optimal with lethality/arpen for burst assassinations as a marksman/assassin and that her recommended items list isn't arpen.

It's only abuse if it's not intended to be used that way.

Noxious BlasttFeb 8, 20172 votes

its sad to see how biased these boards are , yet only the upvoted threads are readable for riot . I made a thread talking about how lethality is a issue right now for Varus Jayce Jhin MissFortune but it got down voted . If u are not a memer amusing the stupid mass ( silvers ) wich have a negative iq syndrome , ur idea about balance is stuck in the abyss of this shit way to communicate with riot .

General Esdeath Feb 8, 20172 votes

Talon is not struggling

ElishevaFeb 8, 20172 votes

Cute thing is, if you are good at either of those champions, they were still good. Kek.

100greenmenFeb 9, 20171 votes

Alright first of all I don't think talon is doing "that" bad, I don't think leathality needs a buff ffs, and talon's jungling prowess is far superior. Guns cocking Okay let me explain, put the guns away. First clear is alright, you can even solo the first clear if you want to invade and be discreet. Get greenfathers gift, armor runes, ad, armor pen, or more ad. Talon is a momentum based ganker so pretend you're lee sin or vi, just with a more conditional escape, keep close to walls that you can jump over just in case things go south.

Play him that way and he can do surprisingly well. You still have to be good with talons mechanics, and remember, invading is made easy by his e, but it's better to upgrade q again by lv 3. I also wouldn't reccomend him as a jungler if you don't jungle very often. He's not freelo. Oh lethality is the main focus, I don't get an excuse to gush about jg talon?

I guess if it buffs marksmen that wouldn't be all that bad, we could always just go back to Draven item 3083 X6.

LordGeovanniFeb 10, 20171 votes

item 3748 item 3071 (or item 3078 ) item 3068 item 3742 item 3065 item 3111 is the only viable bruiser build currently existing with jungle bruisers switching for item 1401 and for item 3026 or maybe item 3110

100greenmenFeb 10, 20171 votes

We know that they're going to do some stuff for the tank class update, I imagine a lot of smaller changes and a few champs getting special attention. So we basically have to stick with it or come up with stupid stuff that works well...ish. Can't wait for the galio rework. :D