vayne true damage fix.

SshhhCantPoop·May 31, 2015·10 votes·1,901 views

In my personal opinion, i feel that everything in this game should be able to be countered. for example, ad with armor, ap with magic resist, true damage with health, etc. except, there is one thing in this game that i feel is truly uncounterable. vayne's true damage. it is percentage health, so there is NOT A SINGLE WAY to counter it. And, on another note. if a summoner knows how to play vayne really well, then they can win almost every single game with her without fail. for example, the Gosu stream going on right now, he has 13 straight wins with vayne, and the one time he is forced to play a champion other than vayne, he gets a loss. I know a lot of people will disagree with me for this, but i believe that vayne's true damage should be changed to a percentage of her AD rather than the enemy's health. because then vaynes wont be able to just go straight attack speed and deal a shit ton of damage. but in place for the huge loss of damage, her ult activation should give more ad, and the scaling on her q and e should be brought up. then vayne will be a much more clean champion in my opinion. im fine with hate, but please at least see this my way before disagreeing.

38 Comments

EffectFXMay 31, 20155 votes

No.

SshhhCantPoopMay 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

No.

okay, thanks for your opinion :D

EffectFXMay 31, 20156 votes

This gets brought up at least once a week and gets shot down every time. She has counterplay. You're just too busy with the "ermahgerd %max hp true damage" too think about it.

SshhhCantPoopMay 31, 20154 votes

{quoted}

This gets brought up at least once a week and gets shot down every time. She has counterplay. You're just too busy with the "ermahgerd %max hp true damage" too think about it.

what can you do to counter % true damage? please elaborate.

Maximum ZileanMay 31, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=sshhh cant poop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XG81mKNz,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-31T07:17:45.439+0000)

what can you do to counter % true damage? please elaborate.

For one, killing her is one.

You can also force her to switch targets by getting your tank all up in her face. And then using the above strategy.

SshhhCantPoopJun 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Zilean,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XG81mKNz,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-31T07:26:44.875+0000)

For one, killing her is one.

You can also force her to switch targets by getting your tank all up in her face. And then using the above strategy.

it isnt always easy to kill her when she has invisibility, a dash, and a knockback/stun. but killing her can work. and forcing her to switch targets isnt always that reliable, cause she also has a team, and they have cc too, to they can make it so it is nearly impossible to force her to switch targets.

EffectFXJun 6, 20151 votes

Invisibility = Red trinket upgraded at level 9 reveals all stealth units.

A dash = out ranged by pretty much every other dash in the game

knockback = long cooldown, situational stun.

Vayne is also countered in 1v1 by banshee's veil. Because she only has 1 spell to break the spell shield and that's her E. Other then that she would have to use an active such as blade of the ruined king which is still a important part of her 1v1.

EffectFXMay 31, 20157 votes

Keep in mind a champion is not one ability, they are their entire kit. So while on paper it looks OP once you actually think about it there are counters.
Vayne must land 3 hits to deal the true damage. This means 2/3rd of the time she is attacking you she is still dealing physical damage, which means armor/health are still effective purchases (just less so when compared to other carries). To kill you with true damage alone vayne would have to hit you 39 times.
Specifically, 2 items are very good against Vayne, Frozen Heart, and Randuins Omen (as well as exhaust and any champion abilities with AS slows). Slower attack speed means less frequent means of proccing that true damage. Thornmail is fine as a 3rd if you want it.
Vayne must hit one target 3 times in a row to proc her true damage. If she is forced to hit someone else then this resets the hit timer unlike other champions with similar abilities (Procs on the enemy such as Vi, Ekko, Gnar and self-procs like Diana, Xin Zhao, Aatrox).
Vayne is ultra reliant on her ability to stealth to outplay/catch unawares enemy players, especially considering her inability to poke safely against several different comps due to her short range (which is why she often split pushes instead of team fights) Everyone one has access to upgraded red trinket at level 9 which reveals all stealthed units.

SshhhCantPoopJun 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Keep in mind a champion is not one ability, they are their entire kit. So while on paper it looks OP once you actually think about it there are counters.

Vayne must land 3 hits to deal the true damage. This means 2/3rd of the time she is attacking you she is still dealing physical damage, which means armor/health are still effective purchases (just less so when compared to other carries). To kill you with true damage alone vayne would have to hit you 39 times.

Specifically, 2 items are very good against Vayne, Frozen Heart, and Randuins Omen (as well as exhaust and any champion abilities with AS slows). Slower attack speed means less frequent means of proccing that true damage. Thornmail is fine as a 3rd if you want it.

Vayne must hit one target 3 times in a row to proc her true damage. If she is forced to hit someone else then this resets the hit timer unlike other champions with similar abilities (Procs on the enemy such as Vi, Ekko, Gnar and self-procs like Diana, Xin Zhao, Aatrox).

Vayne is ultra reliant on her ability to stealth to outplay/catch unawares enemy players, especially considering her inability to poke safely against several different comps due to her short range (which is why she often split pushes instead of team fights) Everyone one has access to upgraded red trinket at level 9 which reveals all stealthed units.

i do agree with this, this is something that can dull her effects down. but that is not countering, that is just weaking a LITTLE bit. im not saying get rid of her true damage, im saying just change it somehow.

EffectFXJun 1, 20151 votes

It is countering, there is no way to completely counter any adc's damage late game.

SshhhCantPoopJun 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It is countering, there is no way to completely counter any adc's damage late game.

armor? last i checked that counters attack damage.

EffectFXJun 2, 20151 votes

If armor counters attack damage then attack speed slows counters silver bolts.

Also Armor pen exists.

SshhhCantPoopJun 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If armor counters attack damage then attack speed slows counters silver bolts.

Also Armor pen exists.

attack speed slows counter attack speed. lol

EffectFXJun 6, 20151 votes

And buy doing that you're building less attack damage and/or armor pen and/or critical strike and/or defensive item. In which case if the offensive stat is missing, then the armor portion of Frozen heart and randuins (health as well) armor are going to be even more effective. If the defensive item is missing then you're more likely to die from being breathed on by anyone gets near you.

aaronautumnMay 31, 20154 votes

you could get items that reduce her attack speed, but really, you shouldn't focus on countering her one ability, but countering her overall kit. her short range, her dependence on stealth in team fights, etc. i'll try to elaborate on this post later but the most important thing is that you focus her in team fights and you find away around the peel that her team will most likely have.

DisasterSolaMay 31, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=sshhh cant poop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XG81mKNz,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-31T07:17:45.439+0000)

what can you do to counter % true damage? please elaborate.

Counterpicks, ASP slows, more burst.

But ALL ADCs will always be broken until crit is reworked or removed.

Tryce MaxwellMay 31, 20153 votes

I agree with this, vayne is grotesquely OP

EffectFXMay 31, 20153 votes

No.

Dr PoroJun 1, 20153 votes

She does have counters... AS reduction (Frozen hearth, Randuin's omen, some champs' abilities) work great against her. Counter her stealth with item 3364 , and counter her nature as a squishy with hard CC. Note that the true damage portion is only about 20% of her total damage output. Armor and health will still make you last longer but being able to burst her down is usually more efficient.

Note that by stacking hp and armor, you're never going to win vs a full build adc. With last whisper and their lifesteal, they just always melt you in a 1v1 if you don't have enough damage.

SshhhCantPoopJun 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XG81mKNz,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-06-01T08:48:52.122+0000)

She does have counters... AS reduction (Frozen hearth, Randuin's omen, some champs' abilities) work great against her. Counter her stealth with , and counter her nature as a squishy with hard CC. Note that the true damage portion is only about 20% of her total damage output. Armor and health will still make you last longer but being able to burst her down is usually more efficient.

Note that by stacking hp and armor, you're never going to win vs a full build adc. With last whisper and their lifesteal, they just always melt you in a 1v1 if you don't have enough damage.

those are counters, but only to a certain extent. because lowering her attack speed only slows the damage a LITTLE bit, and she can just walk out of the sweeper and then she is invisibly again. and yes, the true damage is only 20% of her damage output, but that doesnt change the fact that you truly just cant counter it at all really. and it shreds through tanks at a rate no other adc can match. those options do help, but they dont counter.

Icestar1186Jun 2, 20151 votes

If she walks out of the sweeper, she isn't shooting your team.

KendraMay 31, 20152 votes

One small thing to add - you can actually avoid the third proc of her silver bolts doing a billion true damage by using QSS to cleanse the first two bolts. Not exactly the meaningful counterplay you were looking for since qss has a cooldown much longer than it takes for her to auto you 3 more times, but still worth mentioning.

SshhhCantPoopMay 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

One small thing to add - you can actually avoid the third proc of her silver bolts doing a billion true damage by using QSS to cleanse the first two bolts. Not exactly the meaningful counterplay you were looking for since qss has a cooldown much longer than it takes for her to auto you 3 more times, but still worth mentioning.

yeah, qss can help i guess, except it has a 90 second cd. lol

GaleWinUnleashedJun 1, 20152 votes

Frozen Heart, or any attack speed debuff. Ta-da, countered.

SshhhCantPoopJun 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Frozen Heart, or any attack speed debuff. Ta-da, countered.

that isnt countered. that is just a little slow to her damage.

GaleWinUnleashedJun 2, 20151 votes

It's as close as you're going to get for countering Vayne's damage directly.

The real solution is to arrange the situation such that she can't deal her damage. Lock her down and kill her before she can start tearing apart your team.

Lauricella3May 31, 20151 votes

i think it's just her annoying as f**k knockback and ult stealth are annoying

AaravosMay 31, 20151 votes

I don't think vayne is op at all (strong for sure) but there is one issue. if she get the lead can snowball out of control and become unstoppable because you can't reduce her damage outpot effectively. Don't reduce her overall strenght but changing his true damage into physical what is scales with ad would be good. And maybe giving her little as steroid after the third proc to keep her strong as she is now if the scaling is not enough.

SshhhCantPoopJun 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Re1 Le2can,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XG81mKNz,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-05-31T08:28:29.181+0000)

I don't think vayne is op at all (strong for sure) but there is one issue. if she get the lead can snowball out of control and become unstoppable because you can't reduce her damage outpot effectively. Don't reduce her overall strenght but changing his true damage into physical what is scales with ad would be good. And maybe giving her little as steroid after the third proc to keep her strong as she is now if the scaling is not enough.

i agree, i dont consider her op, but she is a little too strong for this current meta, cause no other adc can even come close to doing as much damage to tanks as her. i dont think riot should take away her strenth, i think they should change how it works. because i feel like % health true damage is just unstoppable if the vayne knows what she is doing.

MLDzXnRRRMay 31, 20151 votes

only Malphite with FH and Randuins / Nasus with the same items are kind of good vs her. But she can get QSS to get rid of their slowing abilities.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 1, 20151 votes

She has low range, and her early game is very weak.

You must think Nasus is crazy OP, too. He's just as bad (or worse) if you let him free farm to late game.

CC her and kill her. She's a squishy.

SshhhCantPoopJun 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

She has low range, and her early game is very weak.

You must think Nasus is crazy OP, too. He's just as bad (or worse) if you let him free farm to late game.

CC her and kill her. She's a squishy.

everyone says her early game is weak, but what i have found from playing her, is that it is actually very strong if you know what you are doing. and it isnt always easy to cc her when she also has a TEAM that help her. it is not always that simple to kill a vayne, she has invisibility, a stun, a dash, and botrk, etc.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 3, 20152 votes

This comment proves to me that you don't really understand the game that well.

You don't have to kill her. I win games against vayne when I am up 50+cs because she can't be in lane with me. If you fight her at any point, you risk losing. The key is to poke her.

When I say her early game is weak, that doesn't mean her fighting is weak. She's weak for other reasons. Mostly, I'm referring to her low range and inability to trade. Nearly every other adc out-ranges her, so this is a generalizable concept, but she gets countered better by longer range adcs, and supports that can poke safely.

EDIT: So I guess my point is this; you're focused on the last sentence of my post. But that sentence is conditional. You have to weaken her early game before you can count on killing her late. Her counter is to beat her in lane, which EVERY adc can do. They all can punish her. That's her counter, mainly, and when you do that, her low range makes it easy to deal with her late.

SshhhCantPoopJun 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This comment proves to me that you don't really understand the game that well.

You don't have to kill her. I win games against vayne when I am up 50+cs because she can't be in lane with me. If you fight her at any point, you risk losing. The key is to poke her.

When I say her early game is weak, that doesn't mean her fighting is weak. She's weak for other reasons. Mostly, I'm referring to her low range and inability to trade. Nearly every other adc out-ranges her, so this is a generalizable concept, but she gets countered better by longer range adcs, and supports that can poke safely.

EDIT: So I guess my point is this; you're focused on the last sentence of my post. But that sentence is conditional. You have to weaken her early game before you can count on killing her late. Her counter is to beat her in lane, which EVERY adc can do. They all can punish her. That's her counter, mainly, and when you do that, her low range makes it easy to deal with her late.

you must be playing vs crappy vaynes, cause a good vayne can actually out trade lots of adc's early game, with her q auto e combo. and with a competent support, she can easily get a kill on the enemy.

Icestar1186Jun 2, 20151 votes

It's an interesting idea, but I think Vayne is ok where she is.

RaptameiJun 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=sshhh cant poop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XG81mKNz,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-31T07:03:47.356+0000)

In my personal opinion, i feel that everything in this game should be able to be countered.

Surely there is no way to counter something that requires three consecutive auto attacks.

Or is there?

WarlockLawJun 6, 20151 votes

I feel you have never seen vayne's laning phase. Her laning phase is so absolutely atrocious that vayne has basically zero influence on how laning phase goes. When vayne can't afford items she isn't going to do anything just like any other adc. Basically don't let her get out of hand. Basically any adc and a lot of supports can zone a vayne away from her cs and if not kill her. People make mistakes by not playing aggressive enough, while being wary of ganks from the jungler

l Hatsona Miku lSep 2, 20151 votes

I feel like they should change her true dmg timer. Like after you deal the true damage you wont be able to do it again for a little while. Like ekkos passive, braums stun and what not