[Season 5 itemization]Allowing supports a way to counter hyper-scaling damage dealers.

Knight Devout··2 votes·1,464 views

With preseason 5 Riot stated they want to diversify and broaden the viable strategy through which teams win games. However, after season 4 major support overhaul, the new season brings almost nothing to them. On top of that, the new jungle itemization opens a new path for a broader selection of junglers. Hence, one of the biggest problem I feel when playing supports: Just how bad they scale against ,well basically anyone in lategame. And I'm not talking bad like a 0/4 champion, I'm talking how running into a isolated support in lategame is less threatening than walking in a Super Minion.

Hence, why I think that strategically wise there should be some extra options for support too. In particular, I think that there 2 situations to addres.

#1) Supports being unable to defend/retaliate against certain kind of champions. I'm looking at champions such as MasterYi Tryndamere as the main offenders. They don't thrive botlane, so your influence against them is limited, and if they plunge your adc there is just nothing you can do, assuming they are just good enough to dodge Skillshots cc. And , I can't stress enough how toxic it is Master Yi ignoring both the attack speed and movement speed nerf of Exhaust since riot rewrote the code (once he could ignore the slow, but not the attack speed reduction). This means his botrk and true damage cannot be mitigated. To counter this, I'd change the item 3401 Face of the Mountain active to: shields ally for 4 seconds, reducing incoming damage . Reduces magic and physical damage mildly , and greatly reduces extra damage from criticals. For example, reduces magic and physical damage of 20%, but crits are reduced by an extra 25%, for a total of 120% physical damage instead of 200% (however, normal basic attacks still deal 80% damage, not 60% The second reduction only affect criticals.).

#2)Supports ability to retaliate under their turrets. A lot of times, supports can get slain under their turrets with relative low risk from the enemy team. This is not something relatively weird, as it's a natural consequence of the lack of consistent serious damage from a support, that of course will never be able to depush a lane like a Ziggs/Ori. However, the fact that a support is so weak makes the game really frustrating when you are depushing, and the enemy just walks there , kills your minions while ignoring you, takes the turret and go away. To counter that, and to add flexibility to supports and supports only, I thought about an item that would also make Omhwrecker much more interesting . Book of the Guilty An item that builds out of Fiendish Codex and an Armor item, as an unique active Indictment(180 seconds cooldown). Strikes an enemy dealing a small amount of true damage, and making them the first priority of nearby turrets if they are in range. Additionally, turrets gain 250 more range and will keep memory of the target and damage amplification even when disabled by Omhwrecker.

face of the mountain is already a bad choice for solo laners. The Book would give a small amount of armor and AP , being a terrible item for midlaners and ap in general. These items would works best on supports , without making them overbearing. Book of the guilty could be a little harsh against turret divers, but with the new baron buff, and Omhwrecker, there are plenty of ways to counter it. The general idea is that , even if you are a champion able to reset the aggro going in and out of range, you will have an harder time doing so. Plus, walking into range without harming champions getting in position for a dive now nees a quicker timing as the turrets could decide to aggro you anyway.

12 Comments

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

summoner 3 or CC?

Knight Devout1 votes

You might not have read the whole post. No harm , of course, it was a little long . But, well, master Yi can ignore both the slow and the attack speed slow. Why? Crappy coding from riot, mainly, it used to be different, but as it stands champion who can ignore slows also ignore attack speed reduction.

So, if you exhaust a master you only reduce his basic attack damage. True damage on-hit, botrk, etc, won't be mitigated.

Plus, most on-target stuns are going away from the game. Taric will probably lose Dazzle on target stun with his update. Riot is not happy with point-and-click stuns, but Master Yi is hard to keep in check without it as he gets really slippery when using Alpha strike and Highlander.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

That's fair enough. I forgot how much of Yi's damage wasn't mitigated.

Rebonack2 votes

Add an item into the game with an Ethereal effect. Target can't auto-attack or be auto-attacked for a few seconds and magic damage is amplified against them.

Oh right, Riot hates items with neat active effects. Probably won't happen.

Knight Devout1 votes

But I don't get the point, seem only a Zedbane/Talonbane item.

pro4never1 votes

Supports are already the biggest counter to late game scaling melee champions... that's what they DO .

Exhaust, disengage and hard cc are the primary counters to them and that's what you generally pick supports for.

Janna, Nami, Morgana, Thresh, even Sona are all the most popular supports for a reason. They provide clear answers to anyone who gets ahead. That's before you even include exhaust or other support itemization. Locket to cancel resets/aoe, crucible to counter hard cc, FOTM to amplify bruiser/tanks, FQQ to counter engage teams, talisman to follow up engage or disengage.

Are you honestly arguing that supports don't have an answer to late game champions? That's just ridiculous.

TL- DR: If you cannot bubble, hook, flay, tornado, crescendo, tidal wave, etcetc a yi then that's a whole different issue. Point and click hard CC has no real reason to exist in league and it's a good thing they are phasing it out.

Knight Devout1 votes

Locket is meant to mitigate AoE team compositions, but when people like Kata want a single person dead, you'd better have exhaust or a strong , strong strong lockout. The faster the better, Whimsy, Grasping Roots, etc. And if that Master Yi wasn't able to Alpha strike out of danger, then it was a shitty Yi. Assuming he's in Highlander , and that's where he HAS to be to engage, flay won't apply the slow. he can almost beat bubble and tornadoes in term of speed. And let's not talk about Fiora and her untargetabilty-of-doom (incidentally, she's getting nerfed. Must be a coincidence, right ;) ? )

No, point and click hard cc can be phased out only when you already have PLENTY of strong counters to it, not when you have a flay that you are even lucky to be able to use (because assuming that Yi is worth its salt, he will go to whoever squishy is farther away from the champion with the strongest lockdown).

And Yi is just an example of a champion subclass who is able to destroy squishies faster than your cc. When Yi alpha strikes, if he gets 2 crits with IE, that's enough to bring your ADC lower than half health just during the travel time of death Sentence. That's why that shield is just meant as a strong defense against criticals and mild mitigation against other form of damage: it's meant to negate RNG effects on valuable targets for a short time window while you ready the ultimate solution (i.e. line up your skillshot cc, get in position for a Zenith blade->Shield of Daybreak.

Yes, supports MIGHT have answers when late game champions aren't smart enough to see through them, but most of the time they don't have enough time to answer.

Still, I get your point against hard point and click cc. I just think it's ridiculous to phase it out while also making champions who had that as their only counter even stronger. Did I already mentions that , while Highlandering/Blade Waltzing , Frozen Heart & Randuin are useless? And that you can't exhaust a Yi during alpha strike? Really, tryndamere is actually the easier to deal with as , even when using his spin, you can at least target him.

pro4never1 votes

Locket is meant to mitigate AoE team compositions, but when people like Kata want a single person dead, you'd better have exhaust or a strong , strong strong lockout. The faster the better, Whimsy, Grasping Roots, etc. And if that Master Yi wasn't able to Alpha strike out of danger, then it was a shitty Yi. Assuming he's in Highlander , and that's where he HAS to be to engage, flay won't apply the slow. he can almost beat bubble and tornadoes in term of speed. And let's not talk about Fiora and her untargetabilty-of-doom (incidentally, she's getting nerfed. Must be a coincidence, right ;) ? )

No, point and click hard cc can be phased out only when you already have PLENTY of strong counters to it, not when you have a flay that you are even lucky to be able to use (because assuming that Yi is worth its salt, he will go to whoever squishy is farther away from the champion with the strongest lockdown).

And Yi is just an example of a champion subclass who is able to destroy squishies faster than your cc. When Yi alpha strikes, if he gets 2 crits with IE, that's enough to bring your ADC lower than half health just during the travel time of death Sentence. That's why that shield is just meant as a strong defense against criticals and mild mitigation against other form of damage: it's meant to negate RNG effects on valuable targets for a short time window while you ready the ultimate solution (i.e. line up your skillshot cc, get in position for a Zenith blade->Shield of Daybreak.

Yes, supports MIGHT have answers when late game champions aren't smart enough to see through them, but most of the time they don't have enough time to answer.

Still, I get your point against hard point and click cc. I just think it's ridiculous to phase it out while also making champions who had that as their only counter even stronger. Did I already mentions that , while Highlandering/Blade Waltzing , Frozen Heart & Randuin are useless? And that you can't exhaust a Yi during alpha strike? Really, tryndamere is actually the easier to deal with as , even when using his spin, you can at least target him.

As a support you lead with exhaust and use your hard CC aimed at where the target will land (you should pay attention to who yi/fiora ults so you can time your CC to land right as they pop out next to them). Assuming your ally doesn't panic you should be able to land it really easy.

Honestly late game champs aren't that scary in my opinion. They punish poorly organized teams which is a good thing but are quickly shut down by proper teamwork and coordination. That's healthy game design imo. Gives those characters a rating to thrive in without letting them really harm the overall game balance.

Duke Anax1 votes

Heh, I main support, and I fell like this patch was written specifically for me.

The New Warmogs, Banner and Ohmwrecker are prime picks now for both my Aiistar and my Soraka. So that a pretty deal of defense.

However supports aren't really meant to retailate, at least not solo, so Im not too worried about that.

As for tower diving: Alistar can just tank it out and when you try to dive Soraka she'll just nail you to the ground and watch you die.

KidSpectre1 votes

My top 3 Supports that just BEG you to try and tower dive them: Karma Mantra W, plus E, and the Q slow. You want me dead under tower, you had better work for it. Lissandra Root, slow, blink, Stun/zhonya's/massive slow. Hope you've got time, because you're gonna be here for awhile. Taric Go ahead, try and fight me under tower. I dare you. I DOUBLE dare you. I've killed more tower divers as Taric than any other support.

Knight Devout1 votes

MasterYi Fiora use Q/R to break Karma 's tether. Lissandra sup is always an hazard, she will be squishy and underleveld for the position she's supposed to be in during skirmishes. Taric is going to get reworked, I don't know how effective he will be after that, still, you can't argue with a champion that is not healthy by riot standard. It's like saying that Lee sin is fine because of Release Xin Zhao.

KidSpectre1 votes

MasterYi Fiora use Q/R to break Karma 's tether. Lissandra sup is always an hazard, she will be squishy and underleveld for the position she's supposed to be in during skirmishes. Taric is going to get reworked, I don't know how effective he will be after that, still, you can't argue with a champion that is not healthy by riot standard. It's like saying that Lee sin is fine because of Release Xin Zhao.

No, you absolutely can argue this way, because it's the current state of the game. If it's live, you can argue with it. The only exception is if there are confirmed--either by red post or PBE--changes in the works.

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