What is wrong with tanks and survival these days.

Knight Devout·1/2/2015, 12:28:17 PM·54 votes·3,711 views

Or, why do tanks blow up as carries do?

Actually , that doesn't happen. Survival items do their job properly at keeping people alive. Tanks will go down under a costant dps from the enemy adc, that's the natural order of league.

Then why are people complaining so much? Well, a number of reason. First, the dragon buff favors AD and AP over tanks. No "buts". If you have 300 AD, and I have 100, you gain 18 BOnus AD while I gain 6. There's isn't much to discuss, it's just made to promote offense over defense, it's working as intended.

Second, AD itemization it's not specific, it works well as item are effective all around.

Hey, I'm Veigar Veigar , I'm a burst mage, and because of that, I build item 3151 , an item made to deal a significant damage against health stackers.

Seems silly,right? :D

Hey, I'm Zed Zed , I'm an attack damage assassin, and because of that, I build item 3153 , an item made for fighters to deal significant damage against health stackers.

That still seems silly, but the problem is: it works. Same with most adc really, their building Botrk to deal against tanks or fighters with tons of health doesn't impact significantly their damage against low health targets.

Third, last whisper works too well against squishy targets and synergize too much with blade of the ruined king. You remember the Vayne problem? That when Vayne is too strong in a certain meta you can't itemize against her because of percentage of max health true damage? Well, Botrk is really similar, once you have last whisper. When the adc, or assassin, has both items, you can't itemize effectively against it. Armor gets mitigated, health increases the botrk damage. Also, as with blade of the ruined kind, while Last whisper is made to counter heavy armor targets, it also works well against low armor targets.

In short, while an Ap champion builds item to be effective against a certain kind of target and lose effectiveness against others (example:item 3116 Rilay anditem 3151 Liandry to counter assassins and deal damage to high health targets, vsitem 3128 DFG and Rabaddon{item:3089}} to deal massive damage to squishies, etc. etc.), an AD champion with the same build keeps high efficiency against all sort of targets, since most of his itemization is not specific and works well around. You build an IE, then a Botrk instead of a BT, and a last whisper, and you deal massive damage to both squishies and tanks. While it's true that void staff has some of these issues, magic damage is gated by cooldown , while auto attacks aren't.

70 Comments

JJI7441/2/2015, 2:27:48 PM23 votes

Well written, and IMO, accurate. AD itemization is too broadly effective. IE works great against a squishy target, but is also an effective first item for attacking a tank. Shiv gives good burst/waveclear, but also provides mixxed damage and increased sustained damage. LW reduces the effectiveness or armor stacking, but is also a great damage increase against targets with low armor.

Riot mentioned that they were looking into making LW apply only to bonus armor, but I think Yasuo's ult showed them that that was not an effective solution.

Conversly, defensive itemization tends to be very effective in its specialization, but not broadly effective. BViel is great for avoiding intiation spells or burst combos, but falls short as a defensive item against sustained magic damage. Spirit Visage is absurdly powerful in drawn-out fights, but is vunerable to burst. Warmogs provides good HP and sustain,fails against %HP damage. QSS is great against champions that rely on some form of debuff, but doesn't do too much against straight damage. Thornmail (And Frozed Heart, and Ninja Tabis) is great at countering AA damage, but leaves you with a lower HP total.

Now tanks (actual tanks) tend to have tools to cover one or more area of defense on their own, so the lack of broadly effective itemization doesn't hurt them as much. It is an issue which shows up mostly for bruisers. But actual full tanks are having a hard time finding a spot in League right now. They tend to be too slow in the jungle, and lack the threat in top-lane. I am (cautiously) hopeful the new item on PBE will increase tanks viability in the top-lane. (By providing them with a way to more seriously threaten structures solo.)

EDIT: I wanted to more strongly state that actual TANKS tend to have fairly good/broad defensive options thanks to their intrinsic defense steroids. Bruisers who build a damage item first do lack a solid "I would like to not die in 2 hits" item.However bruisers should NOT be able to go a couple of damage items and still end up nigh-unkillable, but they should also not die in half a second.

Grimmrock1/2/2015, 5:50:00 PM9 votes

Has anyone considered that perhaps, instead of armor and magic resists as flat numbers, they should all go to %.

Consider this, we capped cdr at 40%. we could readily cap armor and mr at 75%.

Items instead of giving flat armor/mr now lend to % damage reduction

for instnace instead of 100 armor, thornmail now reduces damage by 50%, FH reduces damage by 45%, Iceborn gauntlet (60 armor) now 30%, randuins, at 70 armor 35%, caps at bonus resist at 75%.

same thing applied to magic resist, then you can have your pen items reduce armor and magic resists by a % of your bonus physical damage reduction, say if I capped my bonus damage reduction at 75%, my total mitigation stacking with base stats could be say, 90%, from AD. Pen items like lw instead of reducing armor by 45% flat, instead reduces mitigation by 25%. so my 90% mitigation goes down 1/3'd and we end up with something like 75%.

numbers could be tweaked, but it means that tanks focus on % mitigation and now look HEAVILY to mitigation stacks, so that it becomes worthwhile to not die very fast, where you can consistantly play CC out (as a tank should)

ideally, a tank with full build should be able to reduce incoming physical damage by 75%, magic by 55-60%, or vice versa, so that you're actually a tank and not, 5 seconds and dead.

I was always under the impression that a tank, unlike in mmo's, in a moba is a champion that while not creating agro, is creating CC preassure, and if you can barely make it through one cycle of CC (because cooldown reduction is capped) then you cant really do your job of supression. and this is why bruisers/fighters are being picked over tanks these days,

brisuers and fighters can do significant damage before death. tanks cannot. bruisers and tanks die relativly the same time. meaning they last about as long being able to kill is more effective then being able to CC rotate, once.

the hope is that a tank building full tank, should be able to survive abotut 10 seconds of a fight, and be able to make it through 1-2 CC rotations late game.

TL:DR

Tank mitigation needs to be changed. Tanks should be able to make it through more CC rotations there should be a reason to pick a tank over a dps/durability.

Done251/2/2015, 1:47:44 PM9 votes

Don't forget how longswords got a 40 gold price drop, making double swords into cutlass super easy early game when tanks are weak.

Duke Anax1/2/2015, 4:18:51 PM9 votes

Personally I think the biggest problem with those anti tank items is, that they also work decently against non tanks, so everyone builds them.

A first step to solving the issue would be to change them from armor/mr penetration and % health damage to bonus armor/mr penetration and % bonus health.

That way if you only build health, LW becomes useless and thus the Bork, LW becomes useless making Bork itself less effective.

PS: I mean it that case their values need to be raised slightly, so that they remain simmilarly effective in their purpose, but not overpowered beyond that.

xGvPx1/2/2015, 7:55:45 PM4 votes

I feel like start up items should be looked at. The most tanky start up item is also the least gold efficient and thus least used item 3302 , while the most aggressive start up item is the only one of the three that actually penalizes you for being aggressive, and pushing the lane (you lose the gold passive) item 3303 . Right from the get go the game favors, for any melee tank, the middle of the road regen only item, that adds no armor or health for a Tier 3 finish item 3069.

Then supports are forced into buying a marginal health item which has no other benefits other than placing runes item 2045. That takes up a valuable slot which could be used for armor or magic resist. The 400 health is useful but the empty mods means you're out one item slot while everyone else is up one on AD or AP.

I'd like to see something like an item enchantment or perhaps even a new rune type which could mitigate the problem and allow supports and tanks to go more tanky. Right now the only item that really feels tanky and useful is the item 3065.

Captain Aishi1/2/2015, 2:02:56 PM4 votes

masteries are a big part of this since season 4 defensive masteries are terrible compared to the offensive ones, if you compare to season 3 masteries as well, where offense had 5% increased damage to targets under 50% hp, and defense had 3% reduced damage from all sources

this season, defense has 3% damage reduction from CC'd targets, while offense still has the 5% damage to targets under 50% hp, they also have 1.5-2% increased damage, another 1% increased damage, and finally a 3% increased damage, which all stack multiplicatively, unlike defenses calculations

TheCowSaysMoo1/2/2015, 6:54:57 PM4 votes

Really all they need to do is add a buff to the dragon that increases hp armor and mr by 3 percent or even 1.5 percent if 3 is too much to balance it a little but hey tanks are my favorite role and i consistently have the highest damage in nearly every game where i pick sion and build almost solely tank items.

Kuroi861/2/2015, 10:07:00 PM3 votes

The AD itemization changes made things worse I think. The Doran's blade change allowed them to rush Crit early. I think reverting the Doran's blade change, removing a little AD from LW and IE, and buffind the AD on BT, ER and Bork while chipping off a little of the % damage from Bork (1 or 2 %, no more) would go a long way towards leveling off on ADC' power spikes. Another thing I think would help is a % bonus health item for tanks.

Just my opinion of course.

NoFunWithNunu1/3/2015, 11:02:23 PM3 votes

Zed "why i cant solo DrMundo even i have 6 items from killing bot lane? riot pls do something this is no fun" thats why as long some1 complain about tanks are "hard to kill" riot will keep pleasing kids, do you remember when it was fun to survive a fight as DrMundo Shen Rammus ? you knew you stand no chance to push back the enemies but dang it was good to see only 3 deaths in your score, nowday most tanks die as much as any adc

VDc0zCqe0w1/3/2015, 12:44:08 AM3 votes

i don't understand why didn't they make a drake buff suited for tanks lol, every single one is fucking useless to them except the MS buff (wich is not even that good, it's still better for carries and bruisers)

Joe Dredd1/2/2015, 8:19:54 PM2 votes

you don't know what you're talking about. Burst mages don't buy liandry

deadlychuck1/4/2015, 1:47:49 PM1 votes

Something else that affects tank survivability a lot and a reason why as power creep continues they fall further behind, is that most of the ones which are very week have little direct damage mitigation, while damage focused champions (basically every other archetype in the game) have kits which do exactly what they are trying to do.

Notice that the most powerful tanks are the ones who have % damage reduction right now Maokai Braum Alistar It's because they are the only ones who have kits which directly reduce the incoming damage taken. This doesn't include shields which scale with off stats like Shen though, because while increasing armor/MR increases the effectiveness of the shields, the shields themselves only grow larger with a stat which doesn't increase their survivability. As compared to health and armor/MR affecting % damage reductions.

DPS champions though like Zed Fizz LeeSin Gnar Riven Jayce scale extremely well with their primary stats on their skills as well as their base stats. An AD caster champion increases their basic damage through auto attacks as well as increase their damage on their skills.

Riot just doesn't design tanks to tank very well. They design them to be disruptive, but that doesn't actually increase their survivability, it only makes them an annoyance, though it doesn't make them a large threat, because they die just as easily most of the time to burst.

Dragonface1/3/2015, 3:46:15 AM1 votes

I honestly believe that if they reduced item 3035 by 5-10% and reduced item 3071 by 1 stack, and lastly made it so item 3153 dealt scaling true damage dependent on AD or level, then champions that auto-attack would be less effective against EVERYTHING, since then it wouldn't truly affect damage against ADCs or mages and whatnot, but would allow tanks to live longer and do their job.

As of right now, building straight tank is extremely ineffective. The game currently is less about surviving longer than your enemy and more about killing your enemy faster, so building mixed tank/damage on someone like Shen or Maokai is much more effective than grabbing straight armor and MR with no damage.

It feels Riot went the complete opposite way with how they used to run tanks. Rammus was banned in most ranked matches because he was nearly impossible to kill, a long with a few other annoying tanks like Shen. Now tanks, mid to late game, are so easy to shred that tanks are RARELY banned in ranked, it's mostly champions who can easily escape or disengage, like Morg, Fizz, etc.

It's become less about tanking damage and more about completely avoiding it altogether, since there really is no way to truly tank damage anymore. Early game, facing a tank can be annoying, but not completely unbeatable, since ganking can put you ahead and at that point you can just harass the crap out of them, but then they're even more useless mid to late game since even then they can't fulfill their role in the slightest if they don't get any kills or at least farm.

TL;DR Remove some of the tank shredding power but don't make it completely irrelevant, that way running straight tank can be viable again, but not unstoppable. The ability to kill tanks is a little high but not completely unbelievable, since a tank shouldn't be an unstoppable juggernaut.

Glitter Spitter1/3/2015, 7:17:09 PM1 votes

This thread is not at all what i expected it to be... but i will leave my comment anyway because it still somewhat applies The league community forgets often just under a year ago was the rise of mundo and shyvana it was the most miserable and boring time in league that year With that being said i do agree tanks are feeling the after shook of the tank nerfs but i never want a mundo meta ever again

Opistach1/2/2015, 6:42:54 PM1 votes

Right...