Or rather, why do people consider these balanced when they're clearly better than every other support item in the game AND synchronize with themselves, a bunch of other support items, and WIndspeaker's? How is an entire role's itemization revolving around Locket and healing Locket balanced? You guys tell me.
dunder kill9 votesThey're not. They're tools Riot is using to lure people into support because it makes them feel more impactful
KingKong23502 votesYeah, if anything, more support items need to be made like those
LankPants1 votesI don't think that's the right approach. Rather than breaking support items Riot just needs to allow traditional supports to be viable.
Since I started playing in S2 Riot has repeatedly taken power out of traditional supports like Sona, Janna, Soraka and later Nami. Rather than persistently nerfing these champions Riot needs to buff the class, as in the actual champions. If these champs were more relevant at a base line more people who enjoy the support style might actually be willing to play the role.
chipndip11 votesThat too is a thing, and then their itemization wouldn't have to be so strong to compensate for their general helplessness.
hunterspec6 voteslocket got nerfed into the ground when the aura was taken away. are you shitting me? same with redemption. Also people bitch about supports being under leveled boring etc. don't you dare saying "OMG OP NERF" fuck off.
chipndip13 votesLocket's nerfed into the ground.
Locket got a significantly bigger shield on five champs and a cheaper cost.
Locket out-performs every support item in the game, and is the primary build option for every support champ in the game that isn't a mage support.
So with that out of the way: If Locket/Redemption are built over every other support-oriented item in the game in the support role, how is this logically balanced?
Try again.
The Deckowner5 votesBecause without redemption and locket being op traditional supports have no.chance against mage supports.
LankPants2 votesMaybe that says something about the power levels of traditional supports.
sobi9994 votesDude! It is specifically made for supports who are always behind in LEVEL and gold. Not to mention they lack damage as well so they can't get kills even if they wanted too. Except the burst mages but they are technically not supp champs and usually do not buy these items. If supp items were not cost-efficient then i don't think i'll ever play soraka/janna/nami as supp and why they are balanced is because they are always behind in every stat than the opponents. After lethality we get deleted twice as fast and the shields/heals are not enough for us to save our adc's as well. If you want supp's to stay alive in the game then please leave their items alone at the very least.
chipndip13 votesThis has nothing to do with the question, so lemme repeat it so you can try again:
If Locket and Redemption are always built above every other support item in the game, how is this logically balanced?
KingKong23501 votesbalanced against what? Theres only like a few other support items?
sobi9991 votesThis has nothing to do with the question, so lemme repeat it so you can try again:
If Locket and Redemption are always built above every other support item in the game, how is this logically balanced?
Redemption is build sometimes solely for it's active and yes most supports do use them just as most mages use morello. I do not see the issue with the items if they are used specifically on supp's that are always weak in any part of the game. If these items were balanced than supp's need to be balanced as well. Redemption's active was absurd so it got gutted and no one complained as it was justifiable. However if these items are well used by supp without making them broken then i don't see the issue. Now if these items get nerfed then adc will suffer alongside with it because well.... then you will see alot of mages at bot lane. You see if you kill traditional supp's you will bring utmost cancer to the bot lane and increase the damage creep in the games as well. Choice is yours and its not like i want to be reliant on my adc all the time, i just prefer soraka because she helps her adc alot more than any other supp i know.
chipndip11 votesYou said yourself that Soraka, and traditional supports in general, are trash. More specifically, that they're "always weak". Why are we turning to making blatantly powerful items that are independent of them to proxy-buff them when we could just make them better champions? This isn't even the main point of the thread though, but I thought that was peculiar, especially since people were clamoring about wanting to see them in the game during Malzahar's time to shine, which causes even more concern when you realize that Malzahar was just doing what supports are meant to do during lane, which is be strong, since support champs are meant to be stronger early. The fact that traditional supports couldn't keep up with Zyra and Malz without nerfing them out is troublesome. And yeah, Malz had that level 6 cheese, but there's no real excuse for Zyra's case.
With that said, these items are apparently strong not because it promotes strategic diversity, smart decision making, or good game play, but rather because it serves as a way to band-aid traditional supports being intentionally neutered champs. Even then, this isn't exactly the point, but it does highlight the mentality of a lot of people that say these items are balanced. Ultimately, they look at the role in its state and say "These items are balanced because if they were actually balanced, support champs would be as useless as they actually are". Peculiar thought, and I wanted to point that out.
Now, more on topic, this has nothing to do with these items and their power relative to other support items, which are basically lousy filler. Think of it like this: When Rylai's was so good every ap champ in the mid lane was taking it, was that "balanced"? No. So when it's the same thing, but in the support role, why is that balanced?
sobi9991 votesYou said yourself that Soraka, and traditional supports in general, are trash. More specifically, that they're "always weak". Why are we turning to making blatantly powerful items that are independent of them to proxy-buff them when we could just make them better champions? This isn't even the main point of the thread though, but I thought that was peculiar, especially since people were clamoring about wanting to see them in the game during Malzahar's time to shine, which causes even more concern when you realize that Malzahar was just doing what supports are meant to do during lane, which is be strong, since support champs are meant to be stronger early. The fact that traditional supports couldn't keep up with Zyra and Malz without nerfing them out is troublesome. And yeah, Malz had that level 6 cheese, but there's no real excuse for Zyra's case.
With that said, these items are apparently strong not because it promotes strategic diversity, smart decision making, or good game play, but rather because it serves as a way to band-aid traditional supports being intentionally neutered champs. Even then, this isn't exactly the point, but it does highlight the mentality of a lot of people that say these items are balanced. Ultimately, they look at the role in its state and say "These items are balanced because if they were actually balanced, support champs would be as useless as they actually are". Peculiar thought, and I wanted to point that out.
Now, more on topic, this has nothing to do with these items and their power relative to other support items, which are basically lousy filler. Think of it like this: When Rylai's was so good every ap champ in the mid lane was taking it, was that "balanced"? No. So when it's the same thing, but in the support role, why is that balanced?
I understand your point and i agree with you here but what i am trying to say is that currently these items are used by most traditional supp and thus you don't see people moaning about these items being very cost-effective or broken etc. If somehow they were abused then they might come to the spotlight but other than that i don't think riot will nerf them or buff the traditional supp or even buff other supp items and nerf these 2 to compensate for it. There has to be an uproar.
Fondling Gems4 votesI would say that most of the imbalance is in the fact that supports cover a very wide array of required items. As such the majority of support items become niche because how many supports can effectively use something like unholy grail? Supports have much more diversity in terms of the items they want than any other role, as such most items are niche items that have to be balanced around their abusers rather than the majority of champions.
It just makes sense right? ROA can be built by just about any mage, even if a lot of them don't like it over other items. That is because all mages want the same general stats. Supports as a role though is highly diverse and supports fill in a lot of small niches that require niche items.
Then there are a couple support items that just about any support can pick up, namely locket and to a lesser extent redemption. These items are just solid support items like most other support items. The difference is that they aren't niche, so almost any support can pick them up, just like how almost any mage can pick up a morello and be happy.
Windspeakers and those shield items are part of a niche in support itemization, which I believe is why they are allowed to interact, because they are meant to add power in one area at the cost of other things (in their case usually combat stats)
I don't think locket and redemption (post nerf) are exactly overtuned. They are just good items and stand out because they are some of the few support items that aren't super niche. Unlike most other items in the game they are also super visually apparent. Sure that infinity edge does a lot of work, but does it look as impressive as giant glowing orbs enveloping the whole team as a sweet ass sound effect goes off? Not really.
Locket and redemtpion are good items that almost any support can pick up and they come with really powerful visual effects. Those three things combined can make them seem really powerful when in reality they are just good items, kinda like how any crit ADC will pick up an infinity edge.
Visual/sound input can have an amazing effect on how we interpret things, why do you think companies spend millions of dollars on advertisement? Another way to put it is there was a gun in Halo I believe. Everyone was always complaining about how it was super weak. I got to talk to the guy who "buffed" it, stopping all the complaints. He upped the sound on it. No damage, no reload changes. He just made the gun a bit louder. No more complaints.
Sound/visuals are a major part of how we interpret things and Locket/redemption have some of the most powerful visual/sound effects in LoL.
chipndip11 votesIt's a fleshed out answer, and I appreciate that, but you're missing a few key things:
Locket and Redemption ARE overpowered in comparison to their niche items. Not only are they generally strong...they're blatantly strong. At level 11, Locket gives a decaying 420 hp shield on 5 people. Yeah, it decays, but it starts at a high base and shields are primarily used against burst, rather than sustained damage, in the first place. Even if you were fighting sustained damage, damage comes out so fast in this game that you still get good gold value for it. Compare that to FotM or Knight's Vow. A weaker shield on less people and 12 damage off per 100 damage taken by an ally and 12 damage healed per 100 dealt by that ally. Look at how blatantly weak those sound compared to a 420 hp shield at level 11. It still gets more room to get even stronger + it can be increased by up to 50% of its overall power if you build full shield/heal power. That isn't an issue of being "good, but generalized". That's "ridiculous in comparison to its competitors".
This is basically why I keep making threads against Locket/Redemption (mainly Locket). Redemption is a key ingredient to the issue, but Locket is the main thing, ESPECIALLY since Riot failed horribly in making Locket less mandatory in the role. It's more mandatory now. If someone could take that type of insight into these items and STILL make a solid case for how they're balanced, I'd honestly concede the point.
Fondling Gems3 votesTBF Locket's power is mostly in it's active, the stats are just OK for a support. Face of the Mountain has CDR on it as well as it is part of a core upgrade path that provides gold income and healing throughout the laning phase. I am not sure the 3 core support items (relic, talisman, and spelltheif) are fair to compare to other items in the game because they fulfill a very core purpose in the support role while also being pretty much essential.
As for Knights Vow it is always up unlike locket, and reducing damage is only half of what it does, it also heals you as your carry does damage. It is kinda hard to compare support itemization to each other because they aren't easy to compare. Locket is a big shield, but it only lasts a short time and it has a pretty decent CD along with not providing anything for the team while it is down. Knights vow comparatively is always useful so long as you have an ally near.
chipndip11 votesSo let's assume that we forgive FotM because it's a gold gen item, and one could say that its gold gen properties are part of its overall power. It's a solid claim to make, so let's go with that.
That doesn't forgive Knight's Vow, or any non-gold gen item, though. Locket's extreme power comes from its extremely powerful active. Quite frankly, there's no real point in elaborating on if something's always up or not given the context. If something being timed allows for it to be blatantly stronger than its surroundings, then all items should be either timed or not timed. As it stands, it just shows that Riot can't balance support itemization around both actives and passives.
Because, like I said, Knight's Vow only mitigates 12 damage per 100 taken, and heals 12 per 100 dealt. That's saying that, in a 2k damage burst rotation, you only block 240 damage. Meanwhile Locket can ramp up to 600+ damage blocked on up to 5 people every 90 second. Sure, it's windowed, but we aren't in a constant state of team fighting. Once you team fight and blow the shield, by the next team fight after farming, claiming objectives, healing, and buying...the item's up again anyway. The potential power gained from it in comparison to anything else you can buy is heavily skewed, and that's before even looking at how bad some items are. Things like "Why did Riot make Athene's depend on damage dealing when there's hardly any support items that emphasize any sort of damage dealing stat or play style?"
I hope what I'm saying is getting across, because it usually never does.
Fondling Gems2 votesNo I get what you are saying, I just don't think you realize how influential constant power is. It is the whole Aura effect all over again. Auras tend to be removed because they have to be incredibly overtuned to make up for how weak they feel.
Old Taric is an excellent example. Shortly before his rework he was considered one of the 5 worst champions in the game. Yet his ult could be active more often then it was down, did damage, and granted over 12k gold worth of stats to his team. It was one of the most ridiculously overpowered ultimates in LoL. Most people didn't realize this because his ult felt weak since it was little more than an aura.
In the same way Knights Vow has a lot of power, you just don't notice it because it isn't obvious.
Lets look at some math though.
Knights Vow: Cost: 2300 Raw Stats Value: 1764 About 77% Gold efficient.
Locket: Cost: 2200 Raw Stats Value: 1680 About 77% Gold efficient.
So what can we conclude? Base stats are equally gold efficient and thus not worth comparing. We only need to look at the passive effects.
Knights Vow: 12% damage absorbsion + 12% healing from bonded's damage. 15% Bonus movespeed towards bonded target. 40 armour when near bonded target.
Locket: 70-665 shield, 90 second CD, does not stack, reduced locket effect for a short time. Decays over 2.5 Seconds.
We can assume that since both these items are ally reliant we can run them both in optimal situations to compare them.
Ok lets get into the nitty gritty details.
We are assuming these are both operating under ideal conditions, that means you are near your bond for knight's vow and grouped as 5 for locket.
Knights Vow: 15% Movespeed = 592.5 Gold 40 armour = 800 Gold Damage reduction/healing to be discussed.
Locket: Now there is no gold efficiency stat for shields, but I think taking the gold efficiency of health and dividing it by it's uptime is fair right? Logic is that you have that much health for that much uptime.
665 health shield X 5 targets = 3325 health. This has a roughly 3% uptime. However during that uptime we lose 100% of the shield. Therefore the actual amount of shielding per second we get is half that at 1.5% uptime.
We get roughly 50 health (rounding on the generous side) gold value from a locket shield on 5 targets every 90 seconds. This means that the active on Locket is equal to 133 gold.
Of course that is just looking at the raw statistical uptime value of Locket's shield, realistically it has more worth by virtue of being an anti burst mechanic. In regards to that we have what I will assume is a more generous way of calculating it's value.
Locket provides 3325 effective health gold value per cast. This is meant to counter burst. Lets take AP since that is the common AOE burst form that locket is best against. I would say Brand's ult is the best example of something locket is designed to counter right? Brand's ult has a 125% AP scaling and 1500 base damage total.
We can take the base damage off what the shield negates (3325-1500 = 1825 shield left) 1825 shield vs a 125% AP scaling. So for every 1.25 AP worth of gold we can call that equal to 1 point of shield. That means the shield is worth 1460 gold of AP, or 31,755 gold.
Now that is a lot of gold value, but we left out a few things. The shield decays over time, which means that on average (especially vs something as delayed as Brand ult) we only get half the shield value per cast. That lowers us to 15,878 gold of shield.
Funny how looking at the same thing different ways can give such different results right?
That leaves us looking at the items like this:
Knights Vow: Base stats + armour passive + movespeed passive = 3157 gold value That is 137% gold efficiency so far.
Locket: ~800% gold efficiency under ideal circumstances.
However I don't think that is fair. Locket does, like it or not, have a CD. That CD matters. So I think we still need to apply that 3% uptime to the gold value because it matters when you don't have locket, and it matters a lot.
So 3% of that 15,878 gold value active is equal to 476 Gold. Better than calculating the health uptime by a lot, but still not all that impressive.
Locket (again): Base stats + active (with uptime included) = 2156. Just under 100% gold efficiency.
Of course the calculations will differ depending on the ability you are using to calculate it's gold value. I used Brand since that is the biggest general reason to buy a locket IMO as it hits all 5 targets and has a pretty good AP scaling.
So we can see that in terms of gold efficiency Knights Vow actually wins out even without having to do that damage taken/healed passive which is wonderful because I have no desire to math that shitfest out.
chipndip11 votesNot gonna lie, it's refreshing to actually have a conversation on the topic for once.
With this said, I think the main thing I disagree with is how you work out shield gold value. A shield's value is basically "effective health", right? So a shield's value is only to be determined when it's used up. If you never hit a shield and it goes away, you gain nothing. If you use up its full value, you basically had that much bonus health for that small moment in time. I think it'd be fair to say that Locket's shield value is a spectrum based on its remaining shield strength. Of course, using that logic makes it hard to churn out numbers for, but it's the best way to pay respect to its possible strength as well as the strength of non-decaying shields, so long as they're actually struck.
So with that said, yes, I don't think someone should have to do the hard math to figure this shit out, because that's ridiculous. And yeah, you have a point that passives that are always up have value we don't pay attention to. However, something that remains is context. Why buy Knight's Vow when you'd buy it for protecting others, mainly carries, when good timing on Locket already does way, and I mean WAY, better at that job? Think of it like this: How much damage does one have to take in order for Knight's Vow to absorb, say, 600 damage? That'd be 5k damage. On one target. All that for Knight's Vow to mitigate just 600 damage for them. Meanwhile, Locket can and shows that you can block like 3k damage with it in one game. Why bother with Knight's Vow? Why bother trying to skew calcs for Locket's shield value when it's usually up for every team fight? For what it's used for and for how it's implemented, there's nothing Knight's Vow does that Locket can't do.
All that's on just Knight's Vow. Imagine comparing some of the even worse items. Perhaps a solution would be to put Locket on a significantly longer cd? That'd solve the issue with it being too powerful against items that are "always on" if it wasn't up every 90 seconds. It's practically never down for a team fight, so the value of having things that are designed to not be down is decreased by it tremendously.
Fondling Gems1 votesOh thank god you didn't ask me to math that lol.
I totally agree that Locket has a lot of value in how it is used, which is why I also mathed it on how much gold worth of stats it blocks in one go, which was VERY high. The weakness of locket is it's CD. As we saw locket can block over 15 thousand gold worth of AP in one use, but that is in an ideal situation with the damage coming out instantly and hitting each target.
chipndip11 votesHonestly, I wish this wasn't an issue to begin with. Once the topic of support being undervalued and underplayed came up, I steadily realized that a lot of general principles and concepts for the game, like decision making, mastery, game play, and so on, all those fun little buzzwords that Riot uses to mold what they want out of LoL...they don't apply to support that much. I thought that an easy spot to start would be the role's stale itemization, but it's just as hard getting people to realize where the root of that lies as it is getting the conversation going in the first place...which is freaking hard.
With that said, if Riot wasn't struggling to find a balancing point for Locket for years now, I probably would have overlooked it. However, from what I see, Locket being way too necessary is a sore spot for the game's balance. It takes a bunch of Wardens and a bunch of Enchanters...then pretends like there's nothing separating the two and pushes them into buying the same items. It's simply not fun to play, and I know it'd be easier to convey this thought if it happened to other roles for months on end, but alas I'm here, spamming thread after thread hoping someone will see a bigger picture, even if they don't fully agree with me. Which there are, but it's few and far between.
Zielmann3 votesIt's not. Shields/Heals from items shouldn't benefit from the %bonus healing/shielding stat. Leave that for the heals and shields in a champ's actual kit.
Shadòw1 votessomehow Riot simply loves Shields.
it's the most overloaded thing in the game. we still need some Items or other ways to counter Shields.
Like items/a mastery that increases your Damage against Shields by a percentage.
serenity71 votesBecause if you are a squishy support without these items you and your AD will get one shot.
chipndip11 votesThat has nothing to do with them being balanced in comparison to other support items...that just means supports blow...
serenity73 votesmost of the other support items blow. like 
sucks they ruined it.
chipndip11 votesNot gonna lie, I liked the item until they took the mana regen and turned it into HP regen. Now I'd rather, once again, build Redemption, because why build this?
Votable Jester1 votesI liked it even more back when it was a mage item.
no to toxic1 votesI tell you why: Cause it feels good to heal and shield your team for over 2000 dmg and then make them invincible for 2.5 seconds 
BunnyStella1 votesI don't know if Locket is unbalanced as an item objectively, mainly because I personally think that the stats on it are not that strong (even though it's quite cost efficient). What I think makes the item problematic is the current meta - with so many assassins and AD casters being picked in every game Locket just becomes mandatory, as you said, since it acts as such a solid counter to stuff like 
's passive proc or 
's final shot from his ultimate.
As a lowly support main I definitely agree that it doesn't feel good to be forced into building Locket almost every game. I find that it's not so much rewarding when you use the active at the right time but more so frustrating when you don't get to use it the way you intended to. Furthermore, I feel like Enchantress supports especially are being affected by this assassin-heavy meta since... well try playing against or 
or
with 
as your core items... you'll get deleted before you even have a chance to react. Consequently what I dislike the most about items such as Locket (and Redemption to a lesser extent) is that they reduce the diversity in viable builds for Enchantress supports.
TL, DR: Locket is frustratingly mandatory to build right now because the meta is full of high burst assassins and lethality abusers that force you to build a defensive item early to counter their mid game power spike.
chipndip11 votesThe only thing I have to correct here: Locket has been strong in nearly any type of meta. Tank ones. Assassin ones. Divers. Hell, even in ADC metas. Reason for it is simple, and that's the notion that a big, fat, aoe shield is never a strategically bad thing to build. It has no drawbacks or conditions save its own cool down, and that's the issue. Only thing I could think of in this situation is make the cd itself the main drawback, but then you get a Crucible situation where the item's down so long that you'd almost never build it. That's why I personally think the active needs looking into. It's way too strong.
BunnyStella1 votesI definitely agree, personally I wish that Locket's power would be more connected to its stats rather than its active which would not only solve the issues you mentioned about the giant AoE shield being way too useful and versatile (cough pre-nerf 
*cough) but also make different supports feel good about going for what I'm assuming is their intended build path (obviously builds should be situational and also influenced by personal preference). When I play Lulu I'd rather build because I personally feel it synergises better with her base kit rather than being forced to build Locket to not be at a disadvantage because a) the enemy support is sure it get it and b) its active is just too good to pass up. It would be interesting for the item to have more situational uses, although I can't really picture a situation where a shield wouldn't be useful (unless it became a magic or physical shield only). Like I said - changing the stats on it so you don't just get some magic resistance and armour (I mean when are those stats ever not useful) could perhaps help to make the item less problematic. I also feel like that's the reason why Redemption had a lot of potential with the bonus heal/shield power it offered making it a great choice for enchantresses considering how well the active synergises with their kits - before everyone realised that the active is so good that even Vanguards build the item (even if they go top, e.g. 
).
Hige1 votesKnight's vow is also incredibly OP ._. but lethality has made people think Armor is not worth it -.-
Aptest1 votesHere is my decision process.
I can go for damage items that have AP on them, or i can go for tank items that have HP/resists on them. Then I can got for main line items, or for support items in each category.
Damage purchase "value" (what I use instead of gold efficiency when I think about whether to buy stuff) is pretty low UNLESS you reach a certain threshold (there are several of those, the big one being 120% of the enemy ADC's total HP pool), in which case it is worth a lot. Since I am playing a support reaching the value thresholds on damage is not feasible therefore tankyness who's value graph is much steeper with less "value jumps" is worth more than damage. Thus I generally build some form of tank.
Once I choose to go into tank stats there are really only a limited set of options. I can go with the locket / banner line, I can go knight's vow, can get redemption or go for the MBT items like randuin's omen.
I value knight's vow very highly specifically because of the sustain and the damage reduction that I can give to a fellow diver (yes i put it on the jungler not on the ADC), but at that stage of the game I am mostly concerned about the enemy AP (mid lane) which is who I want to kill so I am looking at MR items specifically. Locket gives good MR which I can combine with HP from other items. It just seems like a superior choice to BV and SV, from my position as a support player (am I incorrect?).
As for the other support items being niche items.
Aside from 
, non of the other support items fill their niche effectively. 
used to be a very good and fun item but now it only works in too limited a scenario and is useless for anything else 
does not push well enough on its own, does not occupy the enemy character for a long enough duation, does not help with sieges by offering a character that survives against the enemy AD 
you don't get the active when you need it. 
can't close the gap well enough with these. only useful on supports that are heavily mana gated and they have to get it for this purpose 
follow up CC/burst already landed (unless you're a challanger playing on 0 ping).
Hay5eed1 votesWhy is a thing?
Why is considered balanced?
Why is 
forced on every support?
byakugan1231 voteshow is sightstone balanced if every support has it as a core item? checkmate kappa