"Impossible to balance."

Mira Arya Enthe·Oct 14, 2016·112 votes·7,663 views

Can we acknowledge that Riot keeps releasing designs both through new champions and reworks, only to dumpster them a week or two later, and call them 'impossible to balance'?

Seriously,

I'm tired of you releasing an 'impossible to balance' design, making me fall in love with the character. Then deciding you cannot fix what you created, only to dumpster it for a year or three... We waited since S2 for Yorick, am I going to have to wait 4 years to play Kindred, Aatrox, Azir or Malz again without them being unreliable, overnerfed, pieces of garbage?

The worst part, is when it is a rework... because then you take a long standing champion people already loved, and throw it away, because you wanted to change it, for the sake of change.

And people wonder why I am afraid of a rework. They are so hit or miss. Sometimes we get a other times a

258 Comments

Best Kog NAOct 14, 201630 votes

Or when you rework a champ, people fall in love with it. Then you revert the rework. RIP 5.0 KogMaw

Mira Arya EntheOct 14, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Kog NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WxoyVQ1O,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-14T23:57:59.325+0000)

Or when you rework a champ, people fall in love with it. Then you revert the rework. RIP 5.0

Seriously, all they had to do was adjust his interactions with on hit items to make it work without breaking all the on hit items.

buniesOct 15, 201610 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WxoyVQ1O,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-10-14T23:59:00.224+0000)

Seriously, all they had to do was adjust his interactions with on hit items to make it work without breaking all the on hit items.

to be frank the on hit items were the only benefit to the whole fucking thing

MarshbouyOct 15, 201632 votes

Sucks to suck, every one else in the game hated kog maw but kog maw mains.

Best Kog NAOct 15, 201625 votes

Says the TEEMO main

KeevalroyOct 15, 201619 votes

It would help if Riot stopped prioritizing "fun and unique" designs which are only fun for the person playing the champion with no regard whatsoever going toward those who have to play with and against them. This creates overloaded abominations like Yasuo, Kalista, Ekko, Gnar, Thresh, and Kindred.

Edit: And then there's the problem with the reworks that missed the mark so much that the champion is hardly played anymore and the old mains don't see the champion they fell in love with anymore because the devs alienated and ignored them. Then there's the worst case scenario that there's a net gain in the popularity, the new mains will have the most useful positive feedback, and the rework will be deemed a success with nothing more to add than a shallow, meaningless "apology" to the original fans.

It would help even more if Riot's dedicated defenders stop protecting obviously disastrous ideas just because their blind devotion outweighs common sense, and their militant fanboyism prevents them from understanding problems with game health since Riot hasn't directly stated there's an issue...

dunder killOct 15, 201617 votes

I dont see why you keep picking Malzahar as an example. His rework actually worked well and even with the nerfs he is perfectly fine

Shadow HazardOct 15, 201617 votes

many pre-rework malz HATE this current shit show.

dunder killOct 15, 201620 votes

Thats because they liked building 2 items then doing a third of a target's HP with a single point and click ability. Not talking about his ult either

Old Malz was toxic as hell. New Malz has more counterplay and is still very viable

BakedLotionOct 15, 201630 votes

{quoted}

I dont see why you keep picking as an example. His rework actually worked well and even with the nerfs he is perfectly fine

Malzahar's rework was horrible. They tried to make him less infuriating to lane against, but he's even worse now.

Onkel MalteOct 15, 201615 votes

{quoted}

Malzahar's [...] even worse now.

I want to point this out again as an Ex-main because you cannot emphasize this enough!!!!

EvewynnOct 15, 20165 votes

Agreed, they put all of his power into his passive then they gutted it without compensation

Onkel MalteOct 15, 20166 votes

His original kit wasn't perfect but that doesn't justify a change becaus of "Game-Health"-issues. They just tuned down his damage for a new passive and they could've done that on the old malz as well - which was genuinely more fun to play in my opinion.

deadlychuckOct 15, 20161 votes

Agreed. The new passive is basically worthless outside of the extremely late game anyway (with a 12sec CD), unless pit against a few specific champions who need to hit you with a spell, which doesn't move them, to engage...

Really, where they said he was changed for "Game Health" i'd argue he was one of the champions keeping the game in a healthy state. They couldn't release champions which push even more unhealthy gameplay because he would work as an easy to play, hard counter to their kit's powerful mobility.

And realistically, i know it hasn't been very long, but how many champions have they reworked/released which couldn't have been released with the old malzahar?

Onkel MalteOct 15, 20161 votes

There are tons of uses for this ability , but it just doesn't fit as a passive.

I think they wanted to emphasize skill on Malzahar, which wasn't visible in his kit, because all he needed was excellent positioning to win a fight - and that always seemed unfair or useless once his ultimate was down.

Nevertheless a small update isn't sufficient for the issues Malzahar has and for the potential he holds, if reworked correctly into a Dark Void-Mage (and not into the space-aids spreading Pokemon-Trainer )

deadlychuckOct 16, 20162 votes

Except his new passive really has no uses, unless the other play is too stupid to stagger for literally less than a second.

It use to be useful as a delay tool, to ensure he had time to build his voidlings, but it doesn't even work as that anymore after the nerfs.

It's pretty easy to tell how much more depth the champion use to have, purely from the fact that he use to be built as AD or AP, and both played very different. The current version plays the same no matter what you build. The only reason he's even viable is because the terribly designed W.

ViddaxOct 15, 20161 votes

I think new Malz has a lot of potential for being a really healthy champion (moreso than old Malz), but Riot really dropped the ball in the delivery... and the follow-up over the ensuing month of chaos after the mage update was no help.

deadlychuckOct 16, 20164 votes

I think that the old malz had better potential than the new version, except they had no idea what they wanted the champion to be. Which is a little weird considering how long he had his identity.

I think it's more accurate to say that the riot staff just stopped liking his identity. Probably because he was one of the people which stopped them from pushing mobility creep even further

Big LincolnOct 15, 201612 votes

riot is lazy and doesn't want to confront any of the real issues with these champions

it's the same shit that they had with Kassadin where they just ignored the real problem because it was 'central' to their kit, their theme, etc

Azir 's early game is too good and his burst is too high if he's supposed to be DPS. lower his Q's damage drastically and then lower the cooldown so he can use it to constantly reposition soldiers late game instead of being focused on just dumping as much burst as soon as he can

Aatrox change either his health costs to flat or his healing to % and bump his damage up. a bigger rework is certainly in order purely for thematic disconnect, but there's no reason to keep him unplayable until then

Malzahar Skarner revert

Mordekaiser revert him but let me keep the W heal, it's pretty nice

Kalista Kindred delete

Poppy give me old ult, i hate the new one and i'd consider poppy one of my go-to junglers right now

Mira Arya EntheOct 15, 201635 votes

Agreed with everything except Poppy. I think she was probably the best rework they ever did.

Big LincolnOct 15, 20165 votes

i think her kit is pretty nice but it doesn't really feel like poppy. i wanted a fresh take on a tough melee carry, not another tank. she's not even a bruiser, which just feels like an insult. of course, i play her as aggressive as possible, so her ult feels out of place in my rotation

also the fact that i mute her when i play as her because her voice and dialogue just makes me mad

SeductiveGrandpaOct 15, 201612 votes

Just my personal opinion here, but, Poppy's whole "feel" was the tanky small yordle girl that wasnt afraid to charge through an enemy team and slam a motherfucker into a wall. (Which they hit this thematic perfectly in the rework) but other than that Poppy really struggled to have a feel other than that. Her kit was too lop-sided( dis-arranged, is that the word?) kinda like a puzzle but with nothing but pieces that dont fit together. Her q was an AA enhancement, her w was a speed boost that was kinda actually pretty cool but ultimately confusing, and her E hasnt change, her old ult was toxic as fuck. She could just pick "Innocent Squishy 1", nullify the rest of their team, and slam them into a wall and kill them instantly. Her passive was also quite interesting in how it worked but still was confusing to me at least. Her kit lacked power, which made her pretty weak and nearly impossible to get through laning phase with. It was obvious she was just too weak until given time to use her ult. Her lore was great too as it set up another champion connection + her VA wasnt too bad for an old champ, but it was just she didnt work. Her new Q is way better, her new passive makes her actually able to do something in lane + have some sort of survivability, her e didnt change but overall works more cohesively with her new kit, and her new ult can either be used in solo targeting or saving your team (or the rare "kill secure")

Edit: WHOOPS MISSED THE POINT In the end, I feel her rework actually established who she is as a character, and delivered a better feel of who she was in gameplay, without making her feel drastically different from old poppy. (In reality all that changed completely was her ult)

Jet SettOct 15, 20163 votes

You forgot the part where old Poppy marked someone with either no damage, or no cc, ult them, then go ham on whoever they pleased.

Hinagiku33Oct 15, 201658 votes

Poppy's old ult was the reason she was never allowed to actually be playable.

It was Riot's official policy that if Poppy ever actually saw pro play, or even a general rise in play rate to be honest, they would immediate nuke her kit from orbit. All because of her old ult. It's a pretty good indicator that the ability was horrifically toxic and will never be coming back.

AdriqnoheeOct 15, 201621 votes

I don't see why people don't like her new Ult, its extremely unique and not only is strong but is good in more ways than one, it can provide a fast knock-up to lock the target in place for a while and if used right can completely change a fight, I remember the first time I was playing her post rework, and I just fell in love with her ult after I send both their ADC and Support back to their base winning us the now 5 v 3 and securing the dragon, it can be used both defensively and aggressively and is still balanced.

AptestOct 15, 201617 votes

its very simple. what people want is this:

I can go in on whomever i want on the other team and kill them and the other team can't do shit about it.

that's in a nut shell her old ult.

RocketRelmOct 15, 20169 votes

Yeah, whenever I see this kind of thing, I think "but what will you do when going AGAINST poppy?"

RalanrOct 15, 20163 votes

They never consider being on the receiving end.

Critmaster GarenOct 15, 201610 votes

i dont think taliyah is impossible to balance. and i doubt they said that. shes mostly has the kit of a classic mage, and not any actual problematic mechanics.

they probably need to fiddle with her q a little bit to tune her waveclearing, so she has to work a bit more for opportunities to roam. but thats it. i really honestly doubt that she would need a larger rework.

if you really want to add someone to your list, then go with Skarner Mordekaiser

though, honestly i dont understand riots stance on skarner. just judging by winrate, he had been balanced for a really long time. the last big nerf felt like it came out of nowhere, when he was already sitting at 50% winrate for a while. maybe he was op in tournaments? i dont watch them, so i wouldnt know.

FairyfleurOct 15, 20168 votes

Tbh I feel Taliyah is fine, and Kindred can still do very well.

Commander JavikOct 15, 20167 votes

I'm an Aatrox main , for me he is balanced right now , although unpopular because of people misunderstanding him , imo . He can dominate a game if he takes few kills early , or is useless if get's camped . The things he needs are : base AD buff , base HP pool + HP/lvl growth . He already has enough damage for me , but has problems with dealing that damage due to his extreme , for a toplaner ofc , squishiness . I have never understood , and will not never understand , why the hell they decided him to be as squishy as some ADC's .

I never played Kalista but , I imagine that her strong points are kiting through her passive and her Rend passive . If someone would decide to put a limit on her passive and Rend passive , she would be playable again . Can't tell much about her .

Azir for me needs to be reworked , a mage marksman with tons of mobility , poke damage and a powerful disengage tool is , imo , unhealthy for the game .

Well , I don't understand why are you talking about Malz ... This champion is good in 5v5 teams . The only thing unbalancable about him are his pets and his aids

Well , Kindred ... This is where i strongly agree , it's just a complete bullshit to give a marksman almost infinite scaling %HP damage , and a very good slow with even more %HP damage . This champ is impossible to balance .

Imo , Rek'Sai's kit is well thaught and thus , overloaded . Don't have to say anything about her.

And last , Taliyah . She was supposed to be a classic control mage but her kit is not designed for a classical control mage since , at release her waveclear was insanely fast and could roam if needed . That was unblanced , now she's sleeping with rocks .

WoonStruckOct 15, 20167 votes

Tbh, Skarner isn't impossible to balance. They've just tried too hard to make him 'unique' when they could target other champions who fall flat on thematics and occupy a similar space.

He'd be in a pretty good spot now if they'd remove spires and up his base mana regen, MS, and attackspeed a little bit. But they want him to be 'unique'. Its not a balance problem, its a Riot problem.

andrew9514Oct 15, 20167 votes

This is why I am really scared of the Warwick rework. Most of the reworks have been hit or miss and the way Skarner and Mordekhaiser have been left in is miserable. This is one of the reasons I wish Riot would stop pumping out new champs and give life to old ones and have healthy fun fantasies. So much potential in champs like Aatrox, Urgot, Galio, Kayle etc is being wasted and it looks like if they are not broken in some way they can't compete against the new ones.

WoonStruckOct 15, 20165 votes

Almost no matter what, the Warwick rework will be good because anything is better than the current one.

He'll likely still have a suppression. Its pretty iconic for him. He'll also still likely have the whole drain-tank think going on.

Nothing else will really be missed about Warwick. There's very little gameplay being removed if they take out his Q (which might still be included with his new kit) and W. His E will likely be passive somewhere in his kit, though it might be self-only vision, like Rengar's ult.

SeductiveGrandpaOct 15, 20168 votes

Well, i'll give it to Rito. At the moment, their acceptable rework ratio to un-acceptable rework ratio is honestly pretty good. The only REALLY big flops I can think of were: Skarner + Mordekaiser (Rito agreed) KogMaw (debatable) While we have a lot of great ones like: Yorick Poppy Fiora Ryze Maokai Sion Gangplank and thats not even counting the mini-reworks that usually come out pretty good: [Most of the marksman update] [Almost all of the mage update]

doombotMECHAOct 15, 20168 votes

well to be fair ryze belongs in both categories

because his first 2 reworks failed!

SeductiveGrandpaOct 15, 20168 votes

Annie "So I heard Ryze is getting another rework" Fiora "Another one? Whats his title now? Rune Magic Man?" Sion "No, no. His title is Magic Blue Guy That Uses Runes" Cassiopeia "But, wasnt that his 40th rework name?" Fiora "No, that was his 66th rework." Annie "Are you sure its not his 129th?" Sion "Just ask him" "Ryze, what rework are you on?" Ryze "I DONT KNOW WHO I AM AND WHAT I DO PLEASE HELP ME STOP THE REWO-" Warwick "AT LEAST YOU FUCKING GOT ONE" Yasuo "STILL HAVENT BEEN REWORKED ONCE ASSHOLES" Thresh "Lol same" Urgot "I heard hes getting another one soon." Ryze "DEAR JESUS SOMEBODY HELP ME"

RalanrOct 15, 20161 votes

I don't think Yasuo would want one.

SeductiveGrandpaOct 15, 20162 votes

No, I meant for the joke to be- Rito usually claims either Zed or Yasuo as their shining example, hence why Yasuo wouldnt ever get a rework (although I think he could totally use one)

resumedOct 15, 20166 votes

some of these champions aren't even hard to balance

sometimes a champion or item is nerfed into the ground because they create unfun experiences for everyone involved. perfect example is devourer. not a single person liked having a devourer jungler on their team, and not a single person liked having a devourer jungler on the enemy team

the only difficulty in balance is usually between competitive and casual play, which is where most balance nightmares like azir, reksai, kalista, lissandra, taliyah, sivir, poppy, alistar, etc. come from.

LankPantsOct 15, 20165 votes

the only difficulty in balance is usually between competitive and casual play, which is where most balance nightmares like azir, reksai, kalista, lissandra, taliyah, sivir, poppy, alistar, etc. come from.

This one is summarised quite nicely by

sometimes a champion or item is nerfed into the ground because they create unfun experiences for everyone involved.

Kalista's is mostly left nerfed because she's a garbage champ who sucks all the fun from the game. Here's to hoping Riot can start being consistent and hit Yasou in the same way.

Aiko UmesawaOct 15, 20166 votes

I really miss a lot of the old champs. The constant reworks, and the rift change to the current one was enough to make me think of league as (and in my words exactly) "The game is currently MEH. It was way better in the past, but its still ok.... I guess?.....

Another thing that made me feel like the game was MEH was the art changes. Now we get used to seeing the art, the champions, the flaws, strengths, and everything that IS league of legends, that we start creating a emotional bond. Now when you change it, the bond is for the most part, severed.

I JUST REALLY MISS THE OLD LEAGUE :c

cries

VelasanOct 15, 20166 votes

These kinds of posts have been done before, especially during the last reworks.

However, I will add to the discussion by pointing out that my biggest issue with the aforementioned champions is that they no longer feel good to play.

For example, Kindred was supposed to be a leaping archer. Now when I play her I constantly feel like my Q isn't quite up in time when I need it, and the heal on charge up system for W was a lot more interesting as a mechanic than crippling jungle camps. Same can be said of Skarner and the spire passive. I love Skarner as a champion, I still don't understand the spires. If I could at least choose where to place them thus adding some strategy to it they would be easier to digest, but as they stand they just take time away from doing other things on the map while telling the enemies where you are.

Beyond that it's no fun when a champion you are trying to learn is changed on a weekly basis. I hardly recognize Azir anymore, and I briefly played Ekko when he came out because I was interested in the character. Well, Ekko has been through several iterations of number changes and then tank Ekko, so if I went back to him now I wouldn't even know where to begin.

I hope they take into consideration how fun a champion is to play and how it feels to play. Objective of the game is to have fun after all (at least for the average player base who are not playing for money in the LCS).

SherogarthOct 15, 20165 votes

Its funny how no one even mentioned Taric .

Champion who got good playrate, fitted his theme, was fun to those that played him and had strong niche - anti ad support with anti mobility tool.

I feel like his rework was overdone, all he needed was new mechanic or two and new ult (but not this delayed thing he got now) on top of visual update that keept him as close to original design as possible. They tried to hard and in the end created a new champion.

Right now he is balanced around his best case scenario - a possibility to 5-man ult, 5-man stun, 5-man heal - that makes him feel extremally dull and boring. He lost his theme - look at his splash and tell me you see a paladin there - he is one big mess of stars, beauty, protector, mountain, demigod, gems, cleric and Fabio, bc wandering gem knight was not unique enough. He lost the warmth in his voice - now is all about "Me" and "I": "That glimmer of hope you see, that's me." "I climbed Mount Targon. You suck." "The stars were the question. I was the answer." Why is he even scaling with armor if he wears none?

All in all i have to agree with him - "Im no longer the man i once was." :(

ShadragonOct 16, 20162 votes

The new Taric could be a pretty solid champion if they just removed his heal and gave him a real Q. He'd be even better if they removed his stupid ult and gave him something actually fun to use. Even his old ult was more interesting than this garbage.

Honestly though he would be better served if they just reverted him to before he got gutted in pre-season 3, which only happened because his pick rate was unusually high in the pro play meta more than 6 months prior. He wasn't even a meta pick anymore when the nerfs hit, and he was only meta in the first place because he was the only thing that could compete with Sona at the time. Taric received the singlemost crippling nerf in any patch in the history of the game, just because. He was strong, but not overpowered, he saw his fair share of play but wasn't overpopular. He was as close to perfectly balanced as any single champion could get, and the item changes were already weakening him while buffing some of his competition. People always bring up Olaf or Evelynn when talking about overzealous nerfs that permanently ruin a champion, but in a single patch nobody has ever received numerical nerfs harsher than Taric has, no one has ever received as many nerfs to different parts of their kit as Taric has, and nobody has ever been nerfed with less justification than Taric has. And the most frustrating part is that nobody even remembers it. Nobody raised a fuss about the change. Nobody noticed that Taric suddenly just stopped existing. The whole event was just ignored and forgotten.

msk51Oct 15, 20165 votes

It is REALLY hard for them though, and we can't ignore that. They have to balance champions for high elo and low elo, NA play styles and EU play styles, for the Mastery 7 players of the champion and the noobs, for the players with crazy good mechanics and the player without, and the list goes on and on and on. While Riot could possible be better with the balancing, we have to cut them some slack and realize hey, this is really hard for them.

SaiannaOct 15, 20165 votes

this list lacks yasuo

SwiftKitten88Oct 15, 20162 votes

then we have Nidalee who riot managed to gut for every elos below plat and yet still have her stupid OP in diamond+.

at least of you Azir and Kalista mains, people feel bad for you..

my main Nidalee has been gutted in my elo and people still hate it and cry for nerfs because it somehow manages to still be crazy strong in higher elo.

and completely ignore the fact that that the only reason i can even PLAY nidalee viably in my elo is the fact that since the day i start playing in season 3 she has been my main.

Mira Arya EntheOct 15, 20165 votes

Nononono! We love you kitty, it is okay <3 we just want you to be properly redesigned to be viable in all levels. Is okay~

SergeantScuttlerOct 15, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WxoyVQ1O,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-14T23:56:35.231+0000)

Can we acknowledge that Riot keeps releasing designs both through new champions and reworks, only to dumpster them a week or two later, and call them 'impossible to balance'?

Seriously,

I'm tired of you releasing an 'impossible to balance' design, making me fall in love with the character. Then deciding you cannot fix what you created, only to dumpster it for a year or three... We waited since S2 for Yorick, am I going to have to wait 4 years to play Kindred, Aatrox, Azir or Malz again without them being unreliable, overnerfed, pieces of garbage?

The worst part, is when it is a rework... because then you take a long standing champion people already loved, and throw it away, because you wanted to change it, for the sake of change.

And people wonder why I am afraid of a rework. They are so hit or miss. Sometimes we get a other times a