These Worlds games are showing the problem with late-game gold.

ModCaptainMårvelous·Oct 7, 2016·6 votes·1,002 views

Several games in the group stages have progressed to the 60+ minute mark and, well, it highlights a problem I talked about months ago with late-game gold being almost pointless.

Once you hit 5-6 items, late game gold becomes pointless. There's an art to stalling, yes, but it feels awful when you see a team down 10k but it not mattering at all because of how gold functions. The most we see with late game is the zzrot/banner cheese where you sell boots, buy it, place it/use it and then rebuy boots.

I sincerely hope Riot has something planned for preseason, even if it's as simple as spending gold late-game on something else.

23 Comments

KVbqbFsC8eOct 7, 20169 votes

Why is it a problem exactly? If a team is down 10k gold but lasted until 50 mins, it isn't a problem. Teams should be able to close out games with large gold leads.

Dominick DestineOct 8, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Big Piece,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WwK4zsOY,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-10-07T23:57:44.408+0000)

Why is it a problem exactly?

This.

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 8, 20161 votes

So the problem is you think I'm associating it from the perspective of snowball. That a team ahead 200k should have even more advantages. Rather, the problem is that once you get six items....that's it.

Elixers are not enough of a boon to drain from gold income. (500g for only one that lasts through death). As said, it only comes into play when you can buy-and-sell an item. If you hit six items, gold becomes a non-factor and entirely pointless. Instead, there should be something you can do with the gold you get from past six items.

As an example, DOTA2 has a variety of uses for gold past full item builds (Even though it's rarer to hit full build in DOTA). These include:

Buyback. (Spend a chunk of gold to revive instantly, albeit it has a lengthy cooldown and adds your remaining death timer to your next one).
One-time purchases that permanently boost your stats.
Items with only certain amounts of uses, such as Drums of Endurance only have a handful of charges.
The courier, which lets you buy items/consumables without selling your items.

I'm not saying we need to put these specifically but the fact that gold becomes an almost non-factor is silly.

KVbqbFsC8eOct 8, 20162 votes

I see what you're saying there, but I still don't see how its a problem. The only time this occurs is in 50+ minutes games, which aren't too common. If Gold was still important that late, we'd probably see weird situations where teams are farming at 50+ minutes to get every edge they can for the upcoming game deciding teamfight.

ValyrianBladeOct 8, 20164 votes

Suggestion:

New elixirs, that give MASSIVE stat boosts, activate upon taking damage from or dealing damage to an enemy CHAMPION, and last for an extremely SHORT period of time.

e.g. Offensive: +15% AP, +10% MS, +20 flat magic pen - activates upon dealing damage to an enemy champion Similar for AD

Defensive: +15% total health, +50 armor/MR, reduces damage dealt to allies like the bond of stone mastery - activates upon receiving damage from an enemy champion.

Each lasts about 30 seconds, and costs about 2-3K gold?

Stats and everything could be tweaked, but the idea is that they'd be a teamfight warping stat bonus that costs loads and definitely isn't worth it if you don't have the spare gold / don't win the game off of that teamfight.

GULAG 4 UOct 8, 20161 votes

Better off buying a tank item.

1 800 Top LaneOct 7, 20162 votes

Should be allowed to upgrade minions

DunkinNoobsOct 8, 20162 votes

Gold leads SHOULD become less relevant as time goes on. That's literally the only way snowballing is a reasonable mechanic in this game and it's the only reason late game champs aren't complete trash.

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 8, 20161 votes

Less relevant, sure.

Completely non-existent, not really. Right now, once you hit 6 items, gold is almost completely irrelevant. I'm not asking for gold to mean everything, I'm asking that it mean something even after you get six items, even if that "something" is an extra gold sink beyond selling your items for an active you'll use once and instantly sell.

DunkinNoobsOct 8, 20161 votes

You had a 10k gold lead and still let the game drag on to 6 items for everybody. Honestly, you probably deserve to lose based on that alone. And I don't mean "you" personally, this is addressed to every team that accrues a massive gold lead and then fails to end the game. Of course starts to become meaningless as the game drags on; gold is merely a means to an end, after all.

ValyrianBladeOct 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You had a 10k gold lead and still let the game drag on to 6 items for everybody. Honestly, you probably deserve to lose based on that alone. And I don't mean "you" personally, this is addressed to every team that accrues a massive gold lead and then fails to end the game. Of course starts to become meaningless as the game drags on; gold is merely a means to an end, after all.

But there's the opposite argument.

I individually hit 6 items well before everyone else. However my 4 teammates are all pretty far behind. So individually there's nothing I can do with all the gold I amass post-6 items, which means I'll inevitably fail to carry because the enemy team has 4 people that are sitting on 5 items and going towards their last buy, while my team has 3 people sitting on 3 and a half items trying to finish their 4th. I was enough ahead and solo-carrying enough to keep us in the game, but unless I make a miracle play and win immediately after getting full build, all that gold I continue to accrue becomes useless and my opponents will catch me while my allies stay that far behind.

It's extremely good play that has kept me in this game (or my opponents' being bad at the game has let me keep us in it) but they eventually get the win strictly because I cap out, through no fault of my own. I can't donate gold to my allies (I mean, I can let them farm and try to give them kills, but odds are most teamfights are me being dove and needing to take 3-4 kills before I die in order to keep us in it - and my item advantage means that my damage is simply so much compared to my allies that waiting for them to take a kill would probably lose us the entire fight).

It's incredibly frustrating to lose a game not because you played poorly, but because you capped out. It's incredibly frustrating to be used to being enough ahead that you can dive the enemy team 1v3 and come out ahead, but eventually diving 1v2 you die for free and lose the game. All because you're sitting on 5K gold you can't spend while your other laners are more than a full item from their build.

DunkinNoobsOct 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But there's the opposite argument.

I individually hit 6 items well before everyone else. However my 4 teammates are all pretty far behind. So individually there's nothing I can do with all the gold I amass post-6 items, which means I'll inevitably fail to carry because the enemy team has 4 people that are sitting on 5 items and going towards their last buy, while my team has 3 people sitting on 3 and a half items trying to finish their 4th. I was enough ahead and solo-carrying enough to keep us in the game, but unless I make a miracle play and win immediately after getting full build, all that gold I continue to accrue becomes useless and my opponents will catch me while my allies stay that far behind.

Preaching to the choir my man. I've lost track of how many games I've had full build+Elixer on Sejuani before 30 minutes and still lost.

SlythionOct 7, 20161 votes

I you suggesting something like...time-specific items?

Like, items that can only be bought after a certain amount of time? It could create a host of balance issues, but I'd argue it's something that's worth looking into at least

AL000Oct 8, 20161 votes

Use gold to build the new turret?

Unstoppable MonkOct 8, 20161 votes

Well people wanted towers to stay up longer. Riot answered the call and now you have stalled games so AYYYYY.

Akali is SO HOTOct 8, 20161 votes

That's what happens when baddies QQ for constant turret buffs

Dark NephthysOct 8, 20161 votes

All that would do is make it harder for your underfed team mates to catch up and finish all their items. Say you have 3 members who are moderately fed (or super fed) so they all have their 6 items...including selling boots and grabbing another item + Elixirs. As it is right now, those 3 fed members could just let the 2 underfed members just farm all the minions/camps and give them a chance to get more gold to catch up since all the gold those 3 fed members need is only 500g for more elixirs.

If you added more items or anything that is for players who are already at their 5-6 items, then those members will just always keep farming the minions which will continue to delay your team mates 6 items and in the end making your team weaker.

Meep ManOct 8, 20161 votes

I've always said when this comes up that a Minion Barracks should open in Fountain after 50-55 minutes into the game to allow you to boost minions with extra stats and unique passives, like decreases damage taken from champions more than X units away and what not.

LuggOct 8, 20161 votes

I think they should make it so that once you have your full 6 items, all gold is converted to bonus damage against objectives. For instance, you would get 1% bonus damage to the next objective you attack for each 1K gold that you have. Then the gold is "spent" on that attack and starts building up again. This would encourage players to max out items quickly since they could take objectives quicker.

L0ve Is BlueOct 8, 20161 votes

The most we see with late game is the zzrot/banner cheese where you sell boots, buy it, place it/use it and then rebuy boots.

I actualy never thought that was possible thanks

CaekieOct 8, 20161 votes

There's nothing wrong with the current paradigm of late game gold.

If an enemy team has a huge gold lead they SHOULD be able to edge out and force the game to a close. That is the ideal situation. It is also a very common occurrence in regular games.

However you made one mistake.

**You are comparing games of WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS level caliber to typical games. **

Hours and hours of thought go into every single team composition a worlds team creates. They don't simply pick champions to fit a certain "comp" or meta. They also picks champions and compositions of their desired win condition that at the same time have the ability to come back if they are losing. These players make the fewest mistakes possible on the world stage and pick champions that will reduce their margin of error, thus creating little opportunity for the opponent to capitalize their gold advantage.

But that is why there is no problem with it. Gold's diminishing returns is not just because of you as a player having only 6 slots. The whole "late game gold is useless" argument doesn't take into consideration a team's composition and ability to simply force the game into late while still maintaining their original win condition. It doesn't matter if you as an Elise have a 10 kill lead above anyone on your team, if the enemy Ziggs knows how to stall lanes, you aren't pushing. If the enemy Ziggs also picked into an a long range poke comp and his team got decimated during laning, he can still do his job at poking while still wave clearing.

This is just a random example of how comp/pick matter when it comes to stalling for lategame whilst also maintaining your teams strat.

SohleksOct 8, 20161 votes

Not really gold related but I've felt like for quite some time now it's so much easier/rewarding in high elo and pro play to play late game "nice teamcomp" champions than it is to play snowball race test your skills against a clock and good opponents (for at least a season and a half). And tbh I think all elo have been a bit more that way because Riot for a while has been tuning the champions that way because "muh snowbull"

Did you see what meddler recently commented on assassins having lower winrates across the board? Basically "they have lower winrates because they're bad for your teamcomp"

. . .

Maybe they're bad for your teamcomp because they're only good at cheesing the game. They're risky to play and not as rewarding as playing everyone hold each other's hands safe teamcomp team champions. Hopefully the assassin rework can give assassins tools for good players against good players that won't be overbearing for QQ in regular play. Because that's why assassin are the way they are basically non existent in top tier play because low elo QQ

I mean I'm chill with it anyways. Kennen grows into a team assassin after all. But now I just condemned him for calling him an assassin and not a mage :^) ; Kennen has good "utility" for "teamwurk" so he's a type of champion allowed to be better here at rito games