Ah, hypocrisy

chipndip1·Feb 2, 2017·3 votes·432 views

+ : Man, every top laner is building this shit. Where's the strategic diversity? This needs to be nerfed.

Riot: Agreed

: Man, every mage is building this shit. Syndra's a burst mage. She doesn't need this item. We need to change this item so it's not so universally applicable for every mage.

Riot: Agreed

+ : Sure, every support in the game builds these two items, especially Locket, which has been known for being a meta monster for years now, but I like how strong I feel when I build these items so these are fine examples of itemization balance in the support role.

Riot: The same item being the best choice no matter your champ class or situation? Call it decision making.

Me:

12 Comments

TheHappyReaperzFeb 2, 20172 votes

Locket was reworked, and Redemption was recently nerfed.

chipndip1Feb 3, 20171 votes

And in comparison to the other support items, is there anything else you'd build over either of these items?

Just because you reworked Locket into being even stronger in more situations, or you nerf an item to be slightly weaker, doesn't mean the problem's solved.

TheHappyReaperzFeb 3, 20172 votes

item 3401 item 3060 item 3109 item 3069 item 3174 item 3504 item 3151 item 3222

chipndip1Feb 3, 20171 votes

You're just naming support items without thinking about the potency of them in comparison to Locket/Redemption...and Liandry's isn't a support item. I really don't want to get disrespectful out of nowhere, so legitimately make an effort to answer the question if you're going to bother.

Like, you named fucking Face of the Mountain, a significantly weaker shield that applies to only 2 people, as something I'd want to build before Locket. I fucking hate these forums for this reason.

TheHappyReaperzFeb 3, 20171 votes

You'd build Face if your a tanky support, partly because it builds out of targons. Not only does the shield scale with health, not level, it also slows, making it better in some cases than locket. Knight's Vow is also far more useful for a tanky support. Ardent and Athene work well on a shield/heal support, Liandrys works on the recent mage supports, Mikael's is a cleanse on a 120 s CD, that gives bonus MS.

chipndip1Feb 3, 20171 votes

Face: Shield that scales with 10% max health and does a slow we don't really notice. Shields two people.

Locket: Decaying shield that scales with level, up to 665 per person. Shields up to 5 people.

See, this is my issue. You're just listing functions without weighing the benefits of one item in comparison to the other. FotM needs SIX THOUSAND TOTAL HP to even come close to Locket's max shield strength on 5 people, and it only affects two people. Supports are also, well, supports, and don't build as much hp as solo lane tanks/fighters, and even they don't get near 5k that often. Locket's overall protection outclasses FotM by a landslide just by affecting more people, and even then it has more possible shield power. Yet you're telling me that FotM has some strategical niche that'll make it more valuable than this item? You're listing item functions and pretending like it means anything.

The point is when are any other items going to have a strategical advantage over these two. The answer is "never", because there is no time. Who cares about measly attack speed on Ardent when most comps have one, and sometimes 2, champs that even care about AA speed? Who cares about the sustain from Athene's when most supports don't do enough damage to stack the item? Think before you post.

TheHappyReaperzFeb 3, 20171 votes

The same goes for you. How often do you use Locket and shield 5 people? As a first built item, the majority of the time, you would be shielding two people. Not only that, Face is built out of Targons, which is a starter item, meaning you can pick it up faster, as well as get Spoils of War.

"Does a slow we don't really notice" Face's slow is a 40% slow for 2 seconds. That essentially halves the enemy's MS for 2 seconds.

Regarding Athene's and Ardent, Ardent works well on literally any ADC besides Jhin and Graves. It helps sustain, as well as gives a significant boost in duels. Support's can't stack up Athene's for the heal? The max cap is 250. You can in fact deal that much damage as a support.

Also, noticed you left out Mikael's. How is a targeted cleanse not better, purely from a strategic standpoint, than a shield?

Your listing item functions and pretending like it means anything. Think before you post.

chipndip1Feb 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The same goes for you. How often do you use Locket and shield 5 people? As a first built item, the majority of the time, you would be shielding two people. Not only that, Face is built out of Targons, which is a starter item, meaning you can pick it up faster, as well as get Spoils of War.

Locket doesn't need to shield 5 people to out-shield FotM. It only needs the same amount FotM shields, which is up to 2. The moment I shield as many people with Locket as someone else does with FotM, I get the bigger shield.

"Does a slow we don't really notice" Face's slow is a 40% slow for 2 seconds. That essentially halves the enemy's MS for 2 seconds.

And? People that dive back lines do it through mobility spells. They don't care about slows because they're dashing at you. To boot, you yourself, as a support, have slows and snares in your own kit, so why bother with this close ranged slow?

Regarding Athene's and Ardent, Ardent works well on literally any ADC besides Jhin and Graves. It helps sustain, as well as gives a significant boost in duels. Support's can't stack up Athene's for the heal? The max cap is 250. You can in fact deal that much damage as a support.

Yeah, but Locket HELPS EVERYONE ON YOUR TEAM VERY WELL. ARDENT IS ONLY USEFUL FOR ATTACK SPEED STACKING CHAMPS. Locket is just generally strong. There's no bad time to build it. To boot, its effect, the reason you buy it, is extremely potent. Why buy a slightly scaling AA speed boost when you can have hundreds of bonus effective health on multiple team mates? One is OBVIOUSLY stronger than the other.

And for Athene's, it drops stacks when you use a sustain move, and builds it based on 20% of your unmitigated damage. Yeah, it goes up to 250, but tell me how you're going to get there when supports, outside of the mage ones everyone hates, do little damage and don't build damage items? You're not thinking. You're just posting.

Also, noticed you left out Mikael's. How is a targeted cleanse not better, purely from a strategic standpoint, than a shield?

The heal it had is gone, so you escape, but you're still close to dying.
You cleanse one person.
The stats are garbage.
The cd is longer.
HUNDREDS OF EFFECTIVE HEALTH.

Your listing item functions and pretending like it means anything. Think before you post.

If only you were actually clever.

TheHappyReaperzFeb 3, 20171 votes

Ah, you feel smart. Well, I congratulate you. On proving nothing to me. You say Ardent is only useful for AS stacking champs. Gee, I wonder what role stacks attack speed, and is literally almost every game of League?

My reference to the max cap of Athene's being 250 is that it is easy, even for a low damage dealing support to get that much.

You say that people dive backlines with mobility spells, dashing to you. That is the best time for a close range slow. When their engage is on CD, and they are in close proximity to their target.

If only you could see past your own idiocy.

chipndip1Feb 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Ah, you feel smart. Well, I congratulate you. On proving nothing to me. You say Ardent is only useful for AS stacking champs. Gee, I wonder what role stacks attack speed, and is literally almost every game of League?

So you can't add?

Useful for 1 person < useful for five people.

Or how about we put it like this:

The gold value of 35% attack speed is about 875 gold, right? This is Ardent Censor at level 18. Applying that component of that buff alone to one person is about 75 gold value (the 35 on hit damage and drain is pennies at that stage, so whatever on that front). Let's assume we have an aoe shield now, so this is 875 x 4 = 3500 gold value.

On the other hand, one point of hp is 2.66-ish gold per point. Locket's shield is effectively 665 hp at max strength by level 18. That's up to about 1773 gold value at max strength at that time...per person, assuming you didn't make it even stronger with heal/shield passives.

Locket outscales the value of Ardent Censor even if Censor effects your whole team, simply due to the amount of effective hp it gives you. I even used the wrong values for the attack speed gold value calcs and still ended up at the same conclusion after fixing it.

My reference to the max cap of Athene's being 250 is that it is easy, even for a low damage dealing support to get that much.

It isn't because supports need to use their sustain moves, so by the time you use the move, you've hardly done any damage to stack the thing. You think you're healing around 250. You are healing like an extra 40 - 60. You need damage to stack it, and supports that build this, save maybe specifically Sona and Karma a tiny bit, don't do enough damage to stack it quickly between sustain move spam.

You say that people dive backlines with mobility spells, dashing to you. That is the best time for a close range slow. When their engage is on CD, and they are in close proximity to their target.

Once again: You pack slows and snares in your kit. Hell, tank supports build FotM, and they're the primary supports to have blatant hard cc. What's the point of the slow when the enemy can't move at all?

You're not saying anything that refutes anything. You think you know anything you're saying and you clean don't.

Edge of DaybreakFeb 3, 20171 votes

People were complaining about how strong those items were and that their raw strength made them almost mandatory so riot nerfed the items down so that it wasn't an essentially a forced choice. The same thing is happening now as they attempt to make redemption not a forced choice and I am sure they are thinking of what to do to locket. Arguing your own made up quotes is fine but don't pretend riot isn't being consistent in how they deal with must buy items. Also just because an item isnt as strong as another does not mean it's worse in every situation. Specific champions can use some items in much stronger niches than going the standard route for their class but usually the generalist item wins out because a generally strong item is usually better in all situations.

Riot could nerf both items multiple times but if people still liked what they did they would still buy them. Every class has items people almost always get but it isn't an issue because the item's most likely not broken people just prefer them to other things.

chipndip1Feb 3, 20171 votes

Redemption still is a forced choice. Nerfing Redemption so it isn't blatantly op in the game is one thing. Nerfing Redemption when there's nothing comparable in strength to take over Redemption is another thing. It's still the second piece of the strongest support item combo in the game. It simply needs to be built second now, rather than first. Nothing's changed.
They've been dealing with Locket for years now. Locket's base function is what's overpowered. A potent aoe sustain function that works independently of someone's kit is just blatantly going to be op. It'll always, and I mean always, overshadow other support itemization options because there's no time that an aoe shield/heal is ever a bad choice to have. There's no downside to living longer. There's no other effect you can put that's as potent as these effects, either.
They aren't being consistent with how they deal with items. Otherwise, when they were changing Locket, they'd have just changed the active or removed the item. Is Locket any closer to being less of a meta-titan item than it was when they said they'd address Locket? No. In fact, it's more generally useful now that it's less focused against ap damage. But PLEASE tell me where I'm wrong on that front. I'd love to hear it.
I'm sure Randuin's and its crit reduction is fine and dandy, but when IBG/Sunfire was core, who was fiending for a Randy's? No one because IBG/Sunfire was just strategically better so much more often that no one bothered to look at other tank items. Once again, if I'm wrong, please say something.
Your issue is that you're looking at all supports as just "supports". Correction: Support isn't a class. It's a role. The role is filled by primarily Enchanters and Wardens. In other words: Mages and tanks that are more geared towards duo laning. It's a bad sign if every champ between two classes of champs build the exact same item. IT MIGHT EVEN BE REMINISCENT OF WHEN ASSASSINS BUILT THE SAME ITEMS TANKS BUILT.