That shit does, literally, 50% of my health OR MORE in lane. What in the flying fuck is all this damage? If we can nerf Graves's Q, we fucking sure can nerf this shit. Double-Up is BULLSHIT levels of damage.
Trinimpodence3 votesbecuase she always been like that the only reason its a problem now is more people plying her
also it only does that much damage if it kills a target in front of u so
watch your placing
cause
doesnt favor fools
ccseancc1431 votesIm pretty sure it crits no matter what now so its alot more reliable.
chipndip11 votesbecuase she always been like that the only reason its a problem now is more people plying her also it only does that much damage if it kills a target in front of u so watch your placing cause
It never did THIS MUCH THOUGH. Did it hit hard? Yea, but why should one move TWO SHOT ME IN LANE?
Like, the passive + auto-critting makes this thing hit for too much damage all at once.
Sightless662 votesIt actually did do this much damage before her most recent rework. Remember that when they added love tap they also reduced the Q's second-shit bonus damage after getting a kill from a 100% bonus to a 50%. That actually cuts off a 50% total AD ratio and 20-80 base damage, and given that love tap is only 60% of her AD at early levels, she actually lost a little bit of Q damage. This is particularly true when you take into account her lower AD and AD/level.
So, this actually used to hurt even more. Funny to think about, isn't it?
feedertrash1 votesbecuase she always been like that the only reason its a problem now is more people plying her also it only does that much damage if it kills a target in front of u so watch your placing cause
It didn't always crit + proc love tap so no. No it hasn't "always been like that"
Habitz3 votesDid we forget to complain, my bad.
Rabble rable rabble rabbblle
MF is my Waifu2 votesIt is a VERY powerful skill, there is no doubt about it. As a Miss Fortune main, it is extremely satisfying when I kill both the ADC and Support with a single Double Up during laning phase.
You have to understand though, that most of the damage you deal to those guys will be through minion kills, and thus, once laning phase is over, you will not often have the opportunity to use Double Up like that. I guess that's why they call her a lane bully.
In short, I feel Double Up is only really powerful during laning phase. After that, you will be right-clicking enemies to kill them, or, you know, waiting for the perfect chance to go Bullet Time on the whole team. :)
Also, someone here said it crits every time. That is not true. It only guarantees a critical hit if Double Up kills the first target.
Trinimpodence1 votesIt is a VERY powerful skill, there is no doubt about it. As a Miss Fortune main, it is extremely satisfying when I kill both the ADC and Support with a single Double Up during laning phase.
You have to understand though, that most of the damage you deal to those guys will be through minion kills, and thus, once laning phase is over, you will not often have the opportunity to use Double Up like that. I guess that's why they call her a lane bully.
In short, I feel Double Up is only really powerful during laning phase. After that, you will be right-clicking enemies to kill them, or, you know, waiting for the perfect chance to go Bullet Time on the whole team. :)
Also, someone here said it crits every time. That is not true. It only guarantees a critical hit if Double Up kills the first target.
not if u got skills like me i get it when ever :3 but it takes effort
chipndip11 votesIt is a VERY powerful skill, there is no doubt about it. As a Miss Fortune main, it is extremely satisfying when I kill both the ADC and Support with a single Double Up during laning phase.
You have to understand though, that most of the damage you deal to those guys will be through minion kills, and thus, once laning phase is over, you will not often have the opportunity to use Double Up like that. I guess that's why they call her a lane bully.
In short, I feel Double Up is only really powerful during laning phase. After that, you will be right-clicking enemies to kill them, or, you know, waiting for the perfect chance to go Bullet Time on the whole team. :)
Also, someone here said it crits every time. That is not true. It only guarantees a critical hit if Double Up kills the first target.
Who cares about it only being powerful in laning. It's a low cooldown skill with low mana costs...and it can TWO SHOT people. What type of shit is that? We've nerfed a lot of spells for doing too much damage. MF is next.
I'm sure you can manage if the move did 40% rather than 60%
RogueWill1 votesWho cares about it only being powerful in laning. It's a low cooldown skill with low mana costs...and it can TWO SHOT people. What type of shit is that? We've nerfed a lot of spells for doing too much damage. MF is next.
I'm sure you can manage if the move did 40% rather than 60%
I'm pretty sure 
can also 2 hit you with the spining axes, the catch is you know where is he going to go next and punish him for that. Same is with MF avoid the dying minions and you shoudl be fine.
chipndip11 votesI'm pretty sure
Yea...
When he's blatantly ahead. Not when he's freaking even with you. To boot, he needs crit.
Sightless663 votesDraven needs crit now? Is this what the world is coming to? Truly we have reached the end of times.
chipndip11 votesDraven needs crit now? Is this what the world is coming to? Truly we have reached the end of times.
...the point is that he's not 2 shotting people without crit and a lead...
Habitz2 votesBut you avoid mf's damage completely if you just position correctly.
chipndip11 votes[{quoted}](name=Aries Burst,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WuFZLPxA,comment-id=0001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-04T14:45:07.394+0000)
But you avoid mf's damage completely if you just position correctly.
Could say the same about Illaoi, but she's gonna catch a nerf any second now anyway.
Penns2 votesYeah if it kills a minion with the first hit and then hits you it does quite a lot of damage (with quite a lot I mean ~1/3 of your HP at level 1) and its kinda hard to play around it.
hi hi its zy zy4 votesIt's hard to play around a spell even though it's so conditional and her only range? Her Double Up does maybe 150 damage at level one if you get the minion kill bounce. That's really not that overbearing considering how easy it is to avoid. See low hp minions? Don't stand directly behind them... Her only poke spell is going to do a decent amount of damage, that's like complaining that Sona's q does too much damage. Tip: If you stand inside the wave, it's nigh impossible to be hit by a Double Up. Also, the bounce range is fairly low and conic. Standing on the left or right of your minions makes it hard to be hit by it. She either will miss or has to reposition and go to an odd angle to get that bounce, and if you see her walking into weird angles you can either punish her or note that she's about to bounce her Q and position to that accordingly. Btw it only does half of your health if she's ahead. If she's behind the Q does mostly negligible damage.
Penns1 votesNot necessarily hard, just "not used to" and kind of awkward since there is no other spell in the game that acts like double up.
It might only do ~180 damage, but it still looks pretty.. weird... at level 1. Luckily I just played against a MF in ranked, so I made a (bad) gif to illustrate: https://i.gyazo.com/ceff57c3a6da5cfff2f513e2aeef2460.gif . Ouch. (I won that game tho lel)
Also Sona Q DOES too much damage followed by an auto with her passive up 
chipndip11 votesNot necessarily hard, just "not used to" and kind of awkward since there is no other spell in the game that acts like double up.
It might only do ~180 damage, but it still looks pretty.. weird... at level 1. Luckily I just played against a MF in ranked, so I made a (bad) gif to illustrate: https://i.gyazo.com/ceff57c3a6da5cfff2f513e2aeef2460.gif . Ouch. (I won that game tho lel)
**Also Sona Q DOES too much damage followed by an auto with her passive up
With a Sheen...that any support can build and thus out-damage Sona anyway. Nice try, but keep it moving.
Penns1 votesWith 2 ap items, Q+auto from Sona easily does half your hp. Thats.. a lot.
chipndip11 votesWith 2 ap items, Q+auto from Sona easily does half your hp. Thats.. a lot.
With 2 ap items, A LOT of supports can at least do half your hp.
You only notice Sona because Sona players primarily build her into a lot of ap when they support. Most supports just build support items and don't care about the fact that their champ can do damage.
Penns1 votesThey might do damage, but they dont do ~870 damage (~620 against someone with 40 MR) with Q+ auto, having only 
.
chipndip11 votesThey might do damage, but they dont do ~870 damage (~620 against someone with 40 MR) with Q+ auto, having only
Do you realize that if other supports properly utilized the Lich procs, characters like Nami and Karma can easily out-damage Sona? Sona doesn't have a spell rotation, meaning almost 100% of her damage is in ONE SINGLE MOVE...every THIRD TIME she uses a move. She can't kill anyone with it unless they were already damaged to begin with. It's literally impossible.
Still, this is a thread about MF, not Sona players inflating their Q damage with Lich + Luden's.
Sightless661 votesYou let me play Zyra or Karma with those two items and I'll one shot you.
Penns1 votesWell a full combo from Zyra, at level 11 and if 2 plants attack twice, does 960 dmg against someone with 40 mr... But thats a full combo that takes ~2-3 seconds and she has 4 "skillshots", not a simple Q+ auto. And a Karma W+ Mantra Q is gonna do around 650 dmg.
Sightless661 votesOk, how the heck are you calculating this? I call shenanigans. Sona's damage from an auto Q with a Q power cord at level 11 is 200 (0.5 AP) from the Q, + 40 (0.2) from the Q auto, + 142.8 (0.28) from the Staccato power cord. That's 382.8 (0.98).
Karma's mantra Q alone does 260 (0.6) from the base Q, + 125 (0.3) from the mantra bonus damage, + 350 (0.6) from the detonation. That's 735 (1.5). Even without the W, that's outdamaging Sona. Hell, I can add in Sona's ult for 250 (0.5) and she's still doing 632.8 (1.48), which is less than Karma's Q alone.
And yet, you're telling me that Karma is only doing 650 damage when Sona would do 870. That is literally impossible. If Karma has the same items as Sona then she hurts more unless she misses an ability. The only other source of damage Sona has is getting Q procs on her allies.
If you want to complain about Sona's reliability, that's fine, and I'm with you there, but her doing more damage than other champions isn't a real thing.
Penns1 votesThe damage from Sonas Q auto is 80 (60+ 20 because of rank 2 ult) and lich bane does ~130 too. So her Q has 200 base damage, the auto because of the aura does 80, her passive does 140 with the bonus from Q and she has 75 AD. So thats around 500 damage + the total 148% AP scaling. I calculated everything with 200 Ap, so thats 296 + 500 + 57 from the base AD scaling on lich bane... Close, idk what I did different now but w/e lol.
And are you sure Karma Q works like that? I thought it only does the 175 + 350 + 90% ap scaling. The wiki says it only does the 525 + 0.9 ap too (https://i.gyazo.com/21b4f69576d8544bfce8fbbb1fbab99e.png )
Sightless661 votesAh, I see the mistake. That's only the damage the mantra adds. It doesn't have the base damage from Karma's Q in it. Karma's Q does a base damage of 260 (0.6), and then the mantra adds 25 - 175 (0.3) bonus damage to the initial hit and also adds an explosion for 50 - 350 (0.6 damage). What you're looking at is only the bonus damage + the explosion damage. The base damage is left out.
Where are you seeing that on the wiki? Can you link me the page you're looking at? I'm looking here, and it never actually says total magic damage.
Penns1 votesYou just need to left click on the "Detonation Magic Damage", but yeah I think youre right about the bonus dmg part... Thats pretty op lol
Sightless661 votesOh, that's pretty cool. I didn't know about that.
WarlockLaw1 votesIt's not that she does more damage than other champions. It's that she does more damage than most champions can do with only one button and the damage is entirely targeted. Karma has to press two buttons and hit a skillshot to do similar damage (more with tether and second hit of q). That also takes far more time and can miss.
Sightless661 votesIf her having targeted damage is the complaint, I'm sympathetic. I get the annoyance with that. However, just saying she has more damage potential than other supports is wrong, and that's what people say all the time.
WarlockLaw1 votesIn the context of 'press one button then right click once and walk away' Sona's damage is on the high end of the spectrum. But I'm sure people would stop complaining if they made it somehow avoidable.
Honestly her and Annie might be made less obnoxious to play against if they made their passives expire after some amount of time.
Sightless661 votesAlone, that would be a pretty bad change for Sona because it majorly lowers her ability to use her abilities in different ways. If we make her goal into "always cast all 3 of my abilities in the same order to get the best power cord", then that takes away from the already relatively small amount of strategy that goes into when to use her spells.
Maybe it could work if she was redesigned and rebalanced to suit it, but if we were going that far we could find a better way. I can't get away from thinking that there would be much better ways to nerf her that don't feel nearly as bad for the Sona player and doesn't strip away her decisions.
Annie though... no chance. That change would be terrible for her.
Her entire unique value in the mid/late game, literally 100% of it, is reliable initiation. It's the only thing she has that other champions can't perfectly replicate. Because this is her one and only unique type of power, we can't just degrade it without making her always an inferior choice when compared to the unique strengths some other champion brings.
Make her stacks expire, and you either prevent her from initiating, taking away the only unique advantage she has over other champions and making it into something she does worse than them, or if the stack duration is long enough you force her to spam E to keep the stacks up, degrading the use case for that spell into "jam off cooldown no matter what".
Annie needs a more comprehensive rework. There is no "one change" that will leave her a useful champion while also fixing what people find obnoxious about her. If we take away reliable initation, then she needs an entirely new mechanic to be worth picking. As I see it that means that she either gets a full rework, or we leave her as is. Nothing in-between will suffice.
WarlockLaw1 votesFor Annie the expiration could scale so that when she hits 16 it returns to its current no expiration. The reason why I feel this change is worthwhile is because Annie's lane is oppressive.
Also I don't pick Annie for initiation ever. I pick Annie because I can freely win lane with her and then scale into something that one shot bursts the enemy carry. Any initiation I grt with her is tertiary to my goals
As for Sona I would imagine a long enough time that she can proc it off of one spell, it's more just to prevent stacking it out of combat and waiting, she'd get buffs to compensate. Q
chipndip11 votesWell a full combo from Zyra, at level 11 and if 2 plants attack twice, does 960 dmg against someone with 40 mr... But thats a full combo that takes ~2-3 seconds and she has 4 "skillshots", not a simple Q+ auto. And a Karma W+ Mantra Q is gonna do around 650 dmg.
W + Mantra Q + Lich procs. You're forgetting to add Lich procs into each of them. You'd be getting a good bit of extra damage.
hi hi its zy zy1 votesIt didn't do more than 20% of your hp and it only happened because you have terrible positioning. Sona's Q + passive costs over a hundred mana to use + puts her in auto range with 325 movespeed so you have every ability to retaliate to her.
Penns4 votesHow was my positioning terrible? The minions next to me made me walk there and if I didnt, I wouldve missed 2 minions as u can see. And look at the damage it did.. That looks like a clean third (or to do the math: Trist has 543 HP at level 1, I had no HP runes, her Q did 181 dmg) And 181 times 3 is literally 543. So... yeah. Thats actually a pretty cool coincidence lol, I didnt know it actually did that much when I wrote that. On a side note tho, I think this is the only "indirect" Q she hit on me the whole game. Im not saying it is too strong, but it can do a lot of dmg.
Magus Polaris2 votesIf you getting that much health taken off by a Q, then you are severely behind. Any champion can wreck someone who is that far behind.
chipndip12 votes[{quoted}](name=Magus Polaris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WuFZLPxA,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-12-04T00:03:56.735+0000)
If you getting that much health taken off by a Q, then you are severely behind. Any champion can wreck someone who is that far behind.
I wasn't behind. I was merely squishy. There's not THAT many tanky characters that go bot lane.
AdanYEva1 votesq deals too much damage
Elipo1 votesDodge it. Dont stay behind your minions, and now she cannot damage you
Kirin1 votesProbably because you need to be standing directly behind a low hp minion and then wait for mf to get in range of said minion and q it?
chipndip11 votesProbably because you need to be standing directly behind a low hp minion and then wait for mf to get in range of said minion and q it?
Graves's Q literally demanded that you be either near a wall or perfectly still for 2 seconds to take its full damage, but it was nerfed. Hell, Graves's Q does less damage than MF's Q and its damage was nerfed. Why on Earth is MF's Q allowed to carry on when, once again, it can possibly two shot people?
Kirin1 votesGraves's Q literally demanded that you be either near a wall or perfectly still for 2 seconds to take its full damage, but it was nerfed. Hell, Graves's Q does less damage than MF's Q and its damage was nerfed. Why on Earth is MF's Q allowed to carry on when, once again, it can possibly two shot people?
Grave's q seems more like a waveclear tool to me.. In which case comparing it to mf's q is stupid. Also arguing based on the possibility of something occuring seems foolish. On that basis I could argue that nunu's ult is op.
Also not that it's relevant to your point but from my calculations mf's q does less than grave's q after nerf @ base stats level 6
Packun Flower1 votesMf's Q is strong but I think her ult has become one of the strongest ults in the game. The moment she hits 6 her ult can literally 100 to 0 any ADC, especially if they are stuck under turret and have no way to avoid, it lasts much longer then it used to as well.
Bleediss1 votesbecause it's the same as it was before and was never nerfed for a reason
the 2nd hit is quite easy to see coming and find a way to move out of
the 2nd hit is unreliable on MF to try and constantly use on a target
if MF is able to do a trick like her 2nd hit of Q hitting you then she deserves an award because she is a lane bully after all
chipndip11 votesbecause it's the same as it was before and was never nerfed for a reason
the 2nd hit is quite easy to see coming and find a way to move out of
the 2nd hit is unreliable on MF to try and constantly use on a target
if MF is able to do a trick like her 2nd hit of Q hitting you then she deserves an award because she is a lane bully after all
Just because you're strong in lane doesn't mean you need a low cd, low mana cost move that can rip someone's health bar IN HALF. If Riot's going to up her mid/late game, her early game needs to be reduced to compensate. Otherwise, reduce her mid/late game power.
Fitz n The Fool1 votesMF's Q is strong but it always has been. Its the new passive that makes it hit harder. But really, she's fine right now. Strong yes, but not overpowered. If anything IS overpowered it's her ult.
runedara1 votesQuinn's Q is way stronger right now anyway.
