Why Do AP Assassins have to Suffer, Riot?

Infinite Saught·Nov 5, 2017·51 votes·3,012 views

Why does Kha'zix, Rengar, and Zed have half a second kill times at all times in the game while the AP Assassins have to wait a good 2 seconds before they can kill someone?

131 Comments

PennsNov 5, 201719 votes

item 3147

CeolNov 5, 201719 votes

{quoted}

-- "Assassins insta-bursting people is unfair!"

-- Goes through full roster change slowing down burst of Assassins

-- Introduces item 3147 with instant burst damage [sg-lulu]

CowseedNov 5, 20175 votes

-- Introduces with instant burst damage

That literally anyone that can auto and hide in a bush can use

[slayer-jinx-wink]

PePsiLemoNNNov 5, 201711 votes

Kassadin Ekko Diana Katarina Akali Ahri Right man , literally no burst.

AzadetheNov 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Right man , literally no burst.

Akali and Kat have. The others are completely avoidable.

kalima994Nov 5, 20174 votes

So we should make every champion a dumb point and click you die machine?

AzadetheNov 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So we should make every champion a dumb point and click you die machine?

No. I'm just saying..... Ekko, Diana, and Ahri aren't really point and click die machines, and technically neither is Kass. Kass's Ult CD is too long, and his 1 hit burst is mitigateable, and he dies easy enough.

Ekko just requires you to dodge and cc. In reality he's doing 3-4 skills to access a kill, and if anything misses, the others become trivial. He's hard to access the KILL on, but if you watch his shadow, you can predict his ults, and set up the right moments to actually engage him. The problem is when people are fighting, they tunnel on Ekko himself, and not the fact that if his shadow is right next to him, he can't escape, but can do damage. Bait him into using it, and then punish him.

Diana is one of the EASIEST assassins to avoid; just dodge the Cresent of her Q, and she's trivial. And it's pretty easy to avoid.

Ahri is not really a strong assassin, is point and click stunnable, gets pretty heavily countered by resist, even though half her Q is True (Most of her damage actually comes from her W with its tiny cooldowns) Once again,.... you generally know when her ult is up and the routes she has to escape. So that should tell you when and where to attack her. Ambush her from bushes, have teammates hide in her escape routes so she can't charm out or ult out. Or, when her ult is down, just avoid her charm and punish her.

Only Kat and Akali have what could be considered very little counterplay (on the right builds and skill reliances)

StairCasexdNov 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

No. I'm just saying..... Ekko, Diana, and Ahri aren't really point and click die machines, and technically neither is Kass. Kass's Ult CD is too long, and his 1 hit burst is mitigateable, and he dies easy enough.

Ekko just requires you to dodge and cc. In reality he's doing 3-4 skills to access a kill, and if anything misses, the others become trivial. He's hard to access the KILL on, but if you watch his shadow, you can predict his ults, and set up the right moments to actually engage him. The problem is when people are fighting, they tunnel on Ekko himself, and not the fact that if his shadow is right next to him, he can't escape, but can do damage. Bait him into using it, and then punish him.

Diana is one of the EASIEST assassins to avoid; just dodge the Cresent of her Q, and she's trivial. And it's pretty easy to avoid.

Ahri is not really a strong assassin, is point and click stunnable, gets pretty heavily countered by resist, even though half her Q is True (Most of her damage actually comes from her W with its tiny cooldowns) Once again,.... you generally know when her ult is up and the routes she has to escape. So that should tell you when and where to attack her. Ambush her from bushes, have teammates hide in her escape routes so she can't charm out or ult out. Or, when her ult is down, just avoid her charm and punish her.

Only Kat and Akali have what could be considered very little counterplay (on the right builds and skill reliances)

Akali has no counterplay at any skill level, Kat lacks counterplay when she abuses her dagger mechanics to give people no options, like that ewqree nonsense. Ahris overall damage is on the lower end since she's hybrid, just buy mercurial if you're the adc and say lol or one Mr item.

kalima994Nov 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No. I'm just saying..... Ekko, Diana, and Ahri aren't really point and click die machines, and technically neither is Kass.

And what I'm saying is that it's fine that they can actually fail if they fuck up, unlike akali being guaranteed a kill if she is even or has more stats than you because she can't miss

AzadetheNov 6, 20171 votes

What annoys me about Akali..... is she acts like she has Magic penetration even when she doesn't in her kit. Even without a void staff, I can have 3k HP and 240 Mag resist, and she can STILL pop you like a grape. She either surplus scales, or she actually has a hidden Magic Penetration bug.

MysticDreams12Nov 6, 20171 votes

Maybe because she also has AD scalings, and takes Gunblade that adds to her AD? You should be taking armor against her too, bumbo.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

AzadetheNov 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Maybe because she also has AD scalings, and takes Gunblade that adds to her AD? You should be taking armor against her too, bumbo.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Just because a champ has AD scaling does NOT mean they do AD damage.

Akali's SKILLS all do Magic damage, including her Passive proc on autos. She will do "SOME" Ad damage from Base + Hextech, but that's not a fundamental part of her damage. In fact, Akali only averages 6.3k Physical damage per game. Larger than a spam Burst mage which hovers around 2k, but still insignificant.

The damage you see on Akali doesn't even come in bursts from her auto after an R; it comes from her R. All Magic.

MysticDreams12Nov 7, 20171 votes

Yes, she does damage with AD.

Yes, a whole mega chunk of her damage is from autos with her q passive.

I'm meaning that you can't just build MR and HP against her, you have to take armor too. Kinda useless since she can still chunk you if you dont have armor.

AzadetheNov 7, 20171 votes

Her Passive adds on hit MAGIC damage. Her only AD damage is her fundamental basic attack damage, which with only a hextech goes up to about 155, pre armor reduction. If she goes GA or Maw, that will increase her passive but won't increase her skills all that much, but even then, the base goes to 195 respectively.

Most of her damage is MAGIC.

MysticDreams12Nov 7, 20171 votes

I know that. She still does AD damage. You can't just build hp and mr and call it a day.

Good Lord.

AzadetheNov 7, 20171 votes

That's like saying you need to build Armor vs Morgana, or Armor vs Ahri.

MysticDreams12Nov 7, 20171 votes

Nope, its not cause they don't have AD scalings or do attacks with their autos.

AzadetheNov 8, 20172 votes

AD SCALING DOES NOT MEAN THEY DO AD DAMAGE. And all champs auto attack..... If you don't you're playing bad, since skills reset basic attacks. Sometimes you need the extra 200-300 hp in damage to win a fight.

MysticDreams12Nov 8, 20171 votes

I fucking know all champs auto. I meant that not all do extra damage with their autos like Akali does.

And yes, ad scalings means they do ad damage, even if its partly like if they have an ap and ad scaling on one ability.

Good Lord.

MysticDreams12Nov 5, 20173 votes

Why do you even have Diana in there? She's a diver/mage not an assassin

AmazoXNov 6, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Why do you even have Diana in there? She's a diver/mage not an assassin

She uses AP and has incredible burst.

MysticDreams12Nov 6, 20172 votes

So? Mages are the epitome of that description. Lux- AP, burst. Ori, same thing. Liss, etc.

Only thing is Diana does it faster. Doesn't mean she's an assassin.

Bronze 6 YasuoNov 6, 20172 votes

Diana needs a rework. She's a diver Mage and assassin.

MysticDreams12Nov 6, 20173 votes

She's not an assassin.

And I think she's fine, honestly.

Bronze 6 YasuoNov 6, 20172 votes

She is an assassin. Just because it doesn't say she is doesn't mean she isn't. Keep arguing with me.

MysticDreams12Nov 6, 20172 votes

Go search throughout the boards and come back and say that again.

She's not. an. assassin.

You know what assassins do? Get in, kill, GET OUT. Or die if they get cc'd.

What Diana does- get in, kill, survive a little bit, DIE.

She doesn't have the one thing that makes assassins who they are- ESCAPES.

Zed- ult and shadow switch back thingy Fizz- troll poll Kat- shunpo Talon- landscape hop thing and ult

See the pattern? Diana goes all in, doesn't get out. She has the tools like divers do to survive- her shield.

Vi- passive shield Irelia- stun and W heal Nocturne- shield and enemy spell block Warwick- heal, ult, etc

And so on. Divers have abilities to keep them alive when they all in or survive as long as they can. Assassins? Nope. Get in, get out if they can. That's it.

Diana- DIVER.

Still don't believe me? Look at Statikk's page. Under "Divers"- Diana is the last one. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

Bronze 6 YasuoNov 6, 20172 votes

She has her r so she can use the minion wave to get out.

MysticDreams12Nov 6, 20172 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

If she goes all in, she uses her ULT twice on them. Then it's on cooldown. Hence- no escape.

Unless people have the split second decision not to keep going, she will have an r available.

Also, there might not be a minion to jump too- like if a fight is in the jungle or the river.

She has no escapes man. She's not an assassin, period.

Bronze 6 YasuoNov 6, 20172 votes

You don't need to escape them when you can kill them all with one combo. She op (:

Succubús GFNov 6, 20173 votes

Riot classified divers as fighters that go in, do a lot of damage and have a harder time getting out. She would be classified as an assassin if she was

MysticDreams12Nov 6, 20172 votes

Exactly!

MuzétNov 5, 201710 votes

Because AP Assassins have high ressource costs. [slayer-jinx-catface]

Infinite SaughtNov 5, 201717 votes

Katarina

MuzétNov 5, 20172 votes

And Harder Mechanics*

Sorry I forgot about her.

SaltLord451Nov 5, 20179 votes

I do agree that AP assassins need buffs, AP assassins have some of the most hated champions to play against Fizz Katarina Leblanc Ekko . As long as those champs exist, riot won't buff them.

Zero Skill TankNov 5, 201718 votes

Implying that Zed Rengar Khazix or Shaco are hated any less.

SaltLord451Nov 5, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=dont stop Niisan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WoxzYVjE,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-11-05T14:16:41.303+0000)

Implying that or are hated any less.

Assassins in general are some the most hated champions to play against

UnvictusNov 5, 20177 votes

Yet adc’s are doing an assassins job better than they are rn...

AzadetheNov 5, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=dont stop Niisan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WoxzYVjE,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-11-05T14:16:41.303+0000)

Implying that or are hated any less.

Rengar's not hated. He's weak and counterable. Shaco also is arguably weak, as long as you don't show him your back.

You know what I hate? You can hit Twitch with a Karma R-Q, and he won't pop out of camouflage. Being hit by skills should knock people out of camouflage.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 5, 20175 votes

Except when Rengar is strong - or even viable - he's hated and despised as a zero-counterplay bullshit champ.

AzadetheNov 5, 20174 votes

{quoted}

I do agree that AP assassins need buffs, AP assassins have some of the most hated champions to play against . As long as those champs exist, riot won't buff them.

Actually, when Ekko came out, items were pretty balanced. It wasn't until after they modified them/reshuffled stats, and buffed him that he became a problem.

Zed geniusNov 5, 20173 votes

ap assassins are champions in lategame, ad assassins are walking wards

Infinite SaughtNov 5, 201720 votes

Quite the opposite. Win rate of Zed, Kha and Rengar go up as game time goes on. Kata, Leblanc, Fizz, Ekko, Eve, and I guess Kass? go down as game time goes on.

Zed geniusNov 5, 20174 votes

kassadin specifically scales better than almost every other mid laner wtf Fizz lategame is unkillable unless the fizz player is retarded and same goes for ekko. Eve is trash overall Leblanc and Kat can be useful but It is much harder than fizz ekko kass, whereas zed and rengar are literally useless vs 5 people grouping

Infinite SaughtNov 5, 201711 votes

Kass' passive doesnt help against an adc. Fizz's ult gets body blocked, and no, kat and lb arent that useful. Ekko's kill speed too slow; could probably engage then die to the adc.

And if Zed and Rengar aren't useful, why does their win rate go up as game time goes up?

Zed geniusNov 5, 20173 votes

just play them a few games yourself and you'll see what I'm saying

Infinite SaughtNov 5, 201711 votes

Either you haven't actually played them or you haven't seen them in action.