Boards›Gameplay

Clarity on "tank meta", and why it is unlikely

Arya Riven··55 votes·2,715 views

There seems to be confusion about what this means. A tank meta is not tanks being viable, that is a healthy meta. Just as an ADC meta is not ADCs being viable, that is a healthy meta. This applies to every class in the game.

A tank meta, or any class meta. Means those champions have so much agency over games that they are not only present in every match but are the dominant picks in every match.

For example. The ADC meta we would have Graves jungle, Draven ADC, Ezreal mid and Vayne top. That is UNHEALTHY.

But the exact same goes for a tank meta. When every game would be like. Mundo top, Sejauni jungle, Nautilus support. Stacked to the max to where they made everything but tank busters unviable or nearly unviable.

A healthy meta is one where the most number of classes are effective. Without being too strong. This should be the aim of balance. Not to make any class dominant.

That said. I am indifferent and unafraid in regards to a "tank meta". As it just means I can get freelo picking Gnar, Fiora, Vayne or whatever. Plus I doubt a true tri-tank meta will ever actually happen again. Riot has quite intentionally made Pen, Shred, Max HP, True Damage and Current HP all easy to access. In addition they made offense clearly outscale defense.

The only way a tank meta would succeed these days would be if they all had overloaded base damage like Poppy. And then it would just be taking the place of the toxic diver/fighter meta we are in.

That said. Damage needs to go down. See my post on "League, then vs now". But a highly unlikely tank meta is not the savior you are looking for.

Thank you for reading. I hope this provided some clarity on what a tank meta is and why it is unlikely.

65 Comments

serenity719 votes

Exactly this. The point of the Vanguard update is that since carries do so much damage, tanks need to be brought up to speed with the carry classes. Modernized kits and items should make tanks healthy and viable, not necessarily overwhelming. I highly doubt this will result in a "tank meta".

Arya Riven17 votes

It is a strange fetish the world has for extremes. They suffer one thing for a short period and forget how bad the other was(Grass is always greener on the other side of the hill). They get indignant about it. Instead of wanting to fix problems they want revenge(an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind).

It would be like having a car where one tire is low on air. But instead of wanting to fix it you get mad that one side was higher for a while so you pop the full tire and over inflate the low tired.

It is unhealthy behavior and doesn't make anything better. It just puffs up one side for a short while while deflating the other side.

See-saw balance needs to go. True nirvana is achieved through symmetry.

Ralanr6 votes

Remember that there's no money in a healthy patient. There is no money in a perfect product.

Arya Riven3 votes

Riot needs to smoke more weed and less dollars.

Papa Andrei6 votes

I recommend tea actually, its much more calming :D

TyrekGoldenspear6 votes

Plus it's actually legal in all states lol.

Arya Riven7 votes

I don't actually smoke. So I have no official stance on weed other than free choice for everyone. :) I love Earl Grey

Papa Andrei4 votes

I personally love homemade brews xD I got like an entire kitchen cabinet filled with tea.

Candoodle2 votes

you dont have to smoke it maybe consider switching to Earl Grey's "creative" cousin Earl Green?

serenity71 votes

Earl Green

serenity711 votes

Indeed, a wise statement. First "assassins have no counterplay". Now "assassins have too much counterplay, adcs are op". Now people are pretty much wishing for the tank meta. As if they forget early season 6 and tank metas before. Mundo and Garen chasing through 3 towers. As an adc, if a tank had thornmail you could auto them while they are standing still doing nothing and** the adc would die from thornmail**.

Edit: Mundo and Garen are juggernauts but were able to take advantage and become unkillable, further validating that a tank meta was in place.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

{quoted}

Indeed, a wise statement. First "assassins have no counterplay". Now "assassins have too much counterplay, adcs are op". Now people are pretty much wishing for the tank meta. As if they forget early season 6 and tank metas before. Mundo and Garen chasing through 3 towers. As an adc, if a tank had thornmail you could auto them while they are standing still doing nothing and** the adc would die from thornmail**.

I know, it was glorious.

For those of us who hate those no skill right click farm bots who bring low CC and meager utility to the team, its a joyous thought.

Arya Riven9 votes

No offense. But few tanks take any more skill than ADC. And they also don't bring damage. That is entirely the point of two separate classes. They do different jobs.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wn3Jaty1,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-03T04:02:07.940+0000)

No offense. But few tanks take any more skill than ADC. And they also don't bring damage. That is entirely the point of two separate classes. They do different jobs.

The difference is that when Riot updates tanks, there will be more skill expression involved with them. When Riot updated ADCs they remained right click low utility farm bots.

Mages and assassins deal damage. So do divers. All of these classes have more utility and CC than ADCs. I would rather have all of these on my team than an ADC, especially because ADC players absolutely refuse to build defense no matter how far behind they are. It's stupidly binary and the role in general is so selfish and frustrating for other members of the team.

Arya Riven9 votes

Why is it exactly selfish to bring your teams boring long range consistent DPS in a frustrating role that is garbage when behind? Also. Pro-Tier ADCs don't build defensive when behind. It is pointless to on ADCs.

Plenty of ADCs bring team tools. Ashe slow, Ult, E. Jhin's traps, root, ult slow. Grave's smokescreen. Caitlyn's traps are amazing team tools. Sivir's ult. Jinx traps and slow. Just as some examples.

But again. How is being a dull class that brings the teams reliable, consistent, ranged, physical damage more selfish than bringing the team's heals or CC?

How is bringing siege power and objective taking dps selfish?

The Yetii Rider2 votes

You're right that it's pointless on ADCs. But people still pick the role, knowing that if they fall behind they're just going to become easier and easier to kill because all they build is damage.

It's selfish because you are picking a champion that is incapable of being played alone. You require peeling, healing, shielding, to make up for your shitty binary right click kit. Mages bring consistent long range AOE damage, along with decent turret potential because of the increased AP ratio against turrets. Junglers take objectives super fast these days, you don't need an ADC for that unless it's Baron, and Baron is not powerful enough to gimp your team around.

A Mage deals ranged damage. A Mage can self peel. A Mage can clear waves, shove to tower, burst enemies. Mages can buy defensively while behind without sacrificing too much damage.

Arya Riven8 votes

Brand has a single. Single target stun.

Vayne has a single, single target CC.

Annie has a single, AoE stun.

Ashe has a stun, slow, consistent slows and vision.

Brand needs peels if Kha'Zix jumps on him.

Vayne probably doesn't.

Annie needs peels if Kha'Zix jumps on her.

Just like Ashe.

All carries do trash damage without items.

The only difference is ADCs don't need exp as much as mages and thus go duo lane. Adcs use to solo mid. Till people realized this.

Not seeing it.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Lol you named a few mages. Here, let me name several more.

Lux has an AOE snare, an AOE slow, and shields herself and her allies. Morgana can give her allies CC immunity, has an AOE slow, and an AOE stun. Swain has an AOE snare and can start rapidly healing if he gets jumped on. Syndra has an AOE stun knockback and an AOE slow. Vel'koz has an AOE stun knockback and an AOE slow. Oriana has an AOE slow, AOE speed boost, and one of the most disruptive Ultimates in the entire game. And she can shield her allies. Zyra has an AOE snare and an AOE knockup. Malzahar has an AOE silence and a huge anti-assassination passive. Ahri has crazy mobility, healing, and can kite better than most carries.

More importantly, every single one of these champions can build RoA, Zhonyas, Abyssal Scepter, Rylai's while behind and still deal damage. None of the ADCs you listed can do that.

I hope this season is the one that kills ADCs for good. I hope they become completely unviable and are replaced entirely.

Arya Riven8 votes

A: It won't. And that is a bias and hateful viewpoint.

B: None of those mages bring consistent, ranged, physical damage for sieging objectives, tanks and towers. How "selfish" of them.

C: Some mages provide exceptional utility. Some don't. Brand only provides a single target stun, just like Vayne. While Morgana provides a root, stun and shield, just as Ashe and Jhin are exceptional with utility.

Realistically most mages do not get that tanky. For the same reason most ADCs don't rush Maw and Steraks. It isn't optimal. But ADCs certainly can and do build defensive items.

Maw Scimitar GA Bloodthirster BotRK

Are potential buys on most ADCs.

Some can also buy BC, Veil of Night and Mallet.

Good day.

Skorch3 votes

You cant respond to "tanks could stand still doing nothing and the ADC would die" and then call ADCs no skill what?

Candoodle3 votes

no skill, low cc, meager utility

those are pretty bold accusation for a nunu main to throw around

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

those are pretty bold accusation for a nunu main to throw around

Whether my champion takes skill has no bearing on whether ADCs take skill. It's not a relative metric, it's an absolute metric. ADCs can be no skill at the same time Nunu is no skill.

Nunu has a giant AOE 95% slow, a targeted MS/AS slow ok a very short cooldown, and an AS/MS buff. Half his kit provides utility and CC.

Candoodle2 votes

Oh you dont have to sell me on nunu, I have over 850k mastery on him, own nunumains club and am mod at nunumains subreddit

still I think it is fair to say nunu offers "low cc" his utility is also pretty meh as for the giant AOE 95% slow that's misleading, it's scales up to 95 % but how often to you land a full channel nunu ult?

his kit does indeed provide utility and cc but compared to other tanks it's pretty underwhelming I agree with the guy youre argueing with, adc's require a lot more mechanical skill than nunu nunu's strengths lie in the macro play

as for the "metric" you set that yourself when you declared

For those of us who hate those no skill right click farm bots who bring low CC and meager utility to the team

if you ask the community most players would put nunu in that category stones and glass houses

Oh and one last thing, Nunu Thrives and shines his absolute brightest when he has a good adc to play around, so why you want them out of the meta is beyond me

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

and tank metas before. Mundo and Garen

Tank meta? Two juggernauts listed? Seems legit.

serenity72 votes

Further proof of a tank meta, since non tanks were able to take advantage of tank itemization and become unkillable. Seems legit.

TS Media1 votes

“Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange." --- Hiromu Arakawa.

Veltox1 votes

https://myanimelist.cdn-dena.com/s/common/uploaded_files/1451233265-878550b249b5c3651b18f77972829df3.jpeg

Mimr1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wn3Jaty1,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-02-03T00:24:59.852+0000)

It is a strange fetish the world has for extremes. They suffer one thing for a short period and forget how bad the other was(Grass is always greener on the other side of the hill). They get indignant about it. Instead of wanting to fix problems they want revenge(an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind).

It would be like having a car where one tire is low on air. But instead of wanting to fix it you get mad that one side was higher for a while so you pop the full tire and over inflate the low tired.

It is unhealthy behavior and doesn't make anything better. It just puffs up one side for a short while while deflating the other side.

See-saw balance needs to go. True nirvana is achieved through symmetry.

Very true, but equally impossible to achieve. There are simply too many possible variables and interactions (literally trillions) to even start dreaming of achieving that. Swinging from meta to meta is the next best thing to avoid that things get stale.

WoonStruck1 votes

Meanwhile DotA has more variables and has a reasonable state of balance.

More variables means more levers. Riot has no excuse for the state of the game at this point, especially with how much money they bring in. If balance is an issue, they should be able to hire a better balance team, or just more members because obviously their checks/balances in that regard aren't working.

#Hell, Riot doesn't even like using 'unaesthetic' numbers/scaling anymore while balancing.

I shouldn't have to say how absurd that is.

Papa Andrei6 votes

You know, you are getting quite the rep on the boards as the "Hey all, heres some clarifactions" person. Good job! I always love seeing actuall Gameplay discussions.

Arya Riven7 votes

Much appreciate friend. Just a memelord fighting memelords.

Melledoneus3 votes

Memelord, eh? I'll have my eye on you, Riven. Heh heh heh...

Glory ln Death1 votes

But Riven doesn't fight! She always runs from the battlefield LIKE A SNIVELING COWARD!!! YOU AREN'T WORTHY TO BE CALLED A NOXIAN!!!

Arya Riven2 votes

Why don't you ult out of here Sion ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Glory ln Death1 votes

But then how do I chase Riven down and punish her for desertion? It's a very serious crime in Noxus.

Arya Riven1 votes

Dishonorably have Zaun bomb her of course ;>

Glory ln Death1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wn3Jaty1,comment-id=000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-03T18:03:30.285+0000)

honor

GASP

I never knew you had turned so far from your Noxian heritage! Next thing you know, you'll be spinning around the Rift yelling about "justice" and screaming "DEMACIA!" everywhere you go.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Garen Did someone say justice?

Glory ln Death1 votes

Die, heathen scum!

NastyMcOutplay4 votes

tanks are barely even good rn cause of all the ways to get past health and resistances

Arya Riven4 votes

Indeed, which is why I am glad for the mid year tank update!

h5LYF41Lam2 votes

Adcs get fervor of battle Tanks get grasp of the undying Adcs get expensive hyper carry builds Tanks get cheap builds that become obsolete after the enemy adc gets lord dominics Playing full tank is NOT a viable choice for a game that may reach the 40-50 minute mark. Mages get to kick ass late game assasins get to kick ass late game adcs get to kick ass late game tanks get to be destoyed late game.

pedaphelios2 votes

Wellll... as much as I agree with what you said... the fact that a full tank amumu can 1v1 my 7/1 varus after having missed q and getting his ult flashed by virus, i think is pretty unhealthy... I cant imagine a meta where adcs or fighters having to smash in on a poppy or mundo for 3 minutes with almost no damage done only to be turned on and deleted in 10 seconds by a full tank.... How is that healthy? I wish that tanks just went back to being tanks. Let me clarify on that.... I have no problem with tanks being useful. But I have a problem with tanks doing so much damage. Full tanks should be able to absorb much damage in teamfights and still be useful with cc and peel and such for their "DAMAGE dealers" SO why is it that right now a full tank amumu/nautilus does more damage than a full ad in a 1v1 ... thats pretty unhealthy to me. Poppy and mundo are pretty ridiculous right now.. if mundo gets two items, he will be almost unkillable and still able to turn on adcs and kill them in 3 seconds... And im not talking about a trashy adc who cant kite... I mean a mundo running at you with 400 movespeed and destroying you. Thats why the meme "Adc in 2k17 LUL" Is a thing.... because when a 3500 hp olaf runs at you and destroys you as adc without being able to be cced its pretty unhealthy i.m.o. Tanks should be tanks... not damage dealers...a and getting 100 to zerod as an immobile ads by a zac with a cinderhulk and boots is pretty ape in my opinion.

DJMason881 votes

Did the mumu have thornmail?

Serika Zero1 votes

Meanwhile, Corki mid, Gravse jungle, MF support, and adc adc......................

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

These are marksmen. And you can do the same for mages. Ryze top, Syndra mid, Zyra supp, Ziggs bot and Rumble jungle for example.

The last time I don't really see Graves, MF and Corki that often in these positions tbh.

Serika Zero1 votes

adcs are marksmen. They have been dominating the meta for ages. Ziggs is the only mage that goes bot, and that's because his tower demolition numbers are absurd. He'll get nerfed at one point, just like azir got. And azir had less dmg on turrets. Mages usually go mid. When was the last time you saw ryze top? not even once here post rework Supports are generally casters, ap champions (annie, zyra, janna, brand, nami, lulu, morgana etc) or tanks (braum, nautilus, thresh, leons, etc). ADCs, oh boy, why are they support.

As for what you've seen or not. Turn on LCS. Corki mid is the new meta pick. MF gets banned often due to support MF. And when top 3 tier junglers get banned, Graves shows his face every now and then.

Its an adc meta, with adcs in almost all positions, even worse than s1,2,3,4,5 (pre adc rework)

Veltox1 votes

Corki works well mid because he is a caster. You can't count him with traditional auto-reliant adc's.

Serika Zero2 votes

mf, varus, jhin, lucian are also "casters" but they are seen as adcs

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

ADC means attack damage carry. That classifies much more than just marksmen. Gangplank is an ADC, Tryndamere is an ADC and many more.

You are actually talking about marksmen here and they are not the same. Even if many people seem to mix these terms up. Maybe Ziggs is the only one going bot, but the point still holds that there were mages all over the place now. Riot said they want to keep Ziggs bot as a viable playstyle if possible.

Last time I saw Ryze top is not really long ago, tbh. I saw alot of mages top. Ryze, Lissandra, Vladimir.... So I don't get that argument. Miss Fortune is mostly a counterpick for a kinda oppressive support: Zyra (who is a mage btw).

I don't think we are in an adc meta right now.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Arya Riven

League of Legends, then vs now
Gameplay177 comments
363
votes
How game Devs seem to balance
Gameplay233 comments
191
votes
Why Riot cannot balance healing/regen/sustain/lifesteal/spellvamp/omni-vamp
Gameplay177 comments
172
votes
Upvote farming 101
Memes & Games68 comments
123
votes
Tanks are the healthiest class in LoL
Gameplay238 comments
102
votes
Why Garen is just "Worse Darius", power budgeting and fallibility
Gameplay149 comments
85
votes