Why does Phantom Dancer's damage reduction last so long?

Melledoneus·Apr 28, 2018·25 votes·9,820 views

UNIQUE – LAMENT: Grants 12% damage reduction against the last enemy champion you basic attacked (lasts for 10 seconds and refreshes with each basic attack).

12% damage reduction? Pretty decent for dueling. Cool. 10 seconds? Ok... sure... And it refreshes with each basic attack? The heck?

Usually, damage/dueling items with a powerful effect either have a cooldown ( ) or have a short period that need to be refreshed ( ). However, this item has a very high duration and it is very easily reset.

I came out of a game against Yasuo top, and let me tell you: the moment he rushed Phantom Dancer, the lane was lost. Is my view biased a bit because of my experience with that strat? Sure. But it doesn't make it any less unhealthy.

This item is the epitome of stat checking. Please reduce the duration or give it a short cooldown. Thank you.

40 Comments

NyarlathοtepApr 28, 201816 votes

Why? Because it helps adc (and yasuo) to win games.

MelledoneusApr 29, 20182 votes

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/962/861/59d.gif

TempName74814Apr 29, 201816 votes

[deleted]

MelledoneusApr 29, 20183 votes

Well, I admit I'm not the greatest Illaoi player when it comes to dealing with mobility, especially since all my top picks were coincidentally banned that game (who bans Shen?). Yes, I will admit I was killed at level 8 to carelessness. However, it does not diminish the tremendous amount of dueling power a small purchase like that gives. The point still stands, because a Yasuo face tanking an Illaoi ult with 5 tentacles while fighting is hardly fair when he has one item.

Sorry, speaking on past experience too, being a top line primary for several seasons.

I'm sure you remember the glorious days of Bruiser Yas. I'm sure we'd like to see a return of that soon, especially with conqueror available as an option.

LEAFERAApr 28, 20189 votes

And people cry about item 3047

Yaśuo MainApr 28, 20187 votes

And it refreshes with each basic attack? The heck?

It's an item for AD users, that's why. Specifically skirmishers, they usually have a high attack speed mid-late game.

Usually, damage/dueling items with a powerful effect either have a cooldown

Take note.

However, this item has a very high duration and it is very easily reset.

Bramble and Rylais are not dueling items in no way possible.
Gunblade and Hextech are burst items not dueling items. Also, gunblade is a Morello for Katarina, Akali, and basically all melee AP assassins so how is THAT NOT A problem.
It's goal is towards skirmishers who use crit as i said, and those same skirmishers are utterly squishy. Play Yasuo or Yi with PD, end game and before game ends check deaths prevented. I guarantee you, without PD you would die atleast 6 times more if you played as if you had PD.

I came out of a game against Yasuo top, and let me tell you: the moment he rushed Phantom Dancer, the lane was lost

He started dorans shield. He couldn't even lifesteal off the minions if he ever traded to have a presence, that's not counting how you started Dorans blade so he had even LESS of a chance to win a fight, and his PD would make no difference in a fight due to how much damage Illaoi can pump out.

Is my view biased a bit because of my experience with that strat? Sure. But it doesn't make it any less unhealthy.

Well first of all you are biased because you are using a champion that has built in double crit as an example on why PD is overtuned/OP which is utterly skewed, second of all it's not unhealthy. It's a duskblade but it's not OP, it keeps crit (or atleast crit variants) of skirmishers alive.

This item is the epitome of stat checking

It doesn't stat check you, it gives you resistances. It's not gonna give you stats so you immediately become a trundle.

Jon 678910Apr 29, 20182 votes

Bramble and Rylais are not dueling items in no way possible.

If bramble isn't a dueling item then what is it? It applies grievous wounds for ONE second. Unless that's an extended fight, it's worthless.

KhristophorosApr 28, 20184 votes

I think it's to make the item more accessible to champions who aren't as mobile or sticky as Yasuo. Do you think it would make a meaningful difference when trying to fight Yasuo or any other mobile or sticky autoattacker if the duration was say, 3 seconds? But it would really suck for autoattackers that are not as difficult to kite or disengage from. PD would be a worse option for them but pretty much the same for Yasuo because he has no issues reapplying it.

TotalJerkApr 29, 20181 votes

There are no crit melee champions in the game that are easy to kite.

PopcornBunniApr 29, 20183 votes

12% damage reduction is equivalent to 13.63 Armor and Magic resist. It doesn't do as much as it sounds unless it's backed by a sizable health pool or resistances

item 3139 item 3156 item 3026 give more survival aid than PD does. The crit and huge AS are much bigger boons than the 12% reduction. It's there to improve trades with the other adc more than anything.

MelledoneusApr 29, 20182 votes

Pair that damage reduction up with the inherent lifesteal and a Ninja Tabi's and champions like Yasuo become absurdly difficult for champions to duel, more than any two other items purchased with so little gold.

Not to mention Yasuo has inherent survivability with his refreshable passive shield and incredible in-lane mobility. And if you thought your poke didn't matter then, you should see the windwall.

Most champions that build PD have an inherent survivability. Graves, Vayne, Draven (his base stats are higher than most hypercarries).

NyarlathοtepApr 29, 20181 votes

There is something you forgot. Its damage reduction. Not armour/mr. You cant penetrate it or lower it (unless you count pta)

OverpoweredSoapApr 29, 20182 votes

Its honestly such a weird item.

I understand its suppose to be defensive option for ADCs since many mage items do have defensive options as well (mages have a lot of access to health in their builds and generally their items tend to be bulkier compared to ADC itemization) , but its such a weird item.

It kind of just makes mobile adcs even harder to deal with when you do manage to catch them rather than helping out immobile adcs who might want the defensive option more than a mobile adc.

IDK, I feel like it should probably be a melee only option, because it gives melee crit/auto attackers a way to stick to someone and do damage without having to either explode the enemy or get exploded themselves, which tends to be a problem with melee attackers.

MelledoneusApr 29, 20183 votes

I disagree.

I think it should be ranged only because of Yasuo. I know Draven and Graves abuse it too, but what can you do?

EDIT: Ok, making it ranged only is probably a bad idea. Making the defensive window an actual sizable window to play around would be nice.

OverpoweredSoapApr 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I disagree.

I think it should be ranged only because of Yasuo. I know Draven and Graves abuse it too, but what can you do?

I'd rather not screw over the other melee options because of Yasuo alone.

Sort of like where Ezreal tends to fuck up every item in the game because its Ezreal, I don't think it would be fair for the item to suffer because of one champion. In that case that tends to be the champion themselves being the problem and not the item(s).

Draven and Graves have to at least get closer than most adcs and in general are risky than most so I guess its alright.

InfernapeApr 29, 20182 votes

I don't think it would be fair for the item to suffer because of one champion

Cries in Will of the Ancients.

Snowman ArcApr 29, 20181 votes

Such a good item. I remember build it on Viktor as well in some games and I had infinite sustain. Fuck up in lane? Wait the next minion wave to push it. Also, I remember playing Vlad with 3 spellvamp quints. WotA + 6% spellvamp (+2% from masteries). You could never push me out of lane.

GayFluffyUnicornApr 29, 20181 votes

You mean like half the fuckin items are being held hostage because of one champ? Or masteries or whatever. It's not like this is the first case ever

ZackTheWaffleManApr 29, 20181 votes

Tryndamere DrMundo

Void KaijuApr 29, 20181 votes

It's literally the only option that lets yasuo trade favorably. He's designed for 1v1. So as the dedicated 1v1 item it enhances his strengths but does nothing to mitigate his weaknesses when people start grouping. He doesn't want shiv because he already pushes a lane in order to trade or charge his Q up. IF ANYTHING: the problem lies in the bonus movement speed/unit collision ignore that it grants because it both rewards sticking AND makes sticking a thousand times easier.

Hexs FortuneApr 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Its honestly such a weird item.

I understand its suppose to be defensive option for ADCs since many mage items do have defensive options as well (mages have a lot of access to health in their builds and generally their items tend to be bulkier compared to ADC itemization) , but its such a weird item.

It kind of just makes mobile adcs even harder to deal with when you do manage to catch them rather than helping out immobile adcs who might want the defensive option more than a mobile adc.

IDK, I feel like it should probably be a melee only option, because it gives melee crit/auto attackers a way to stick to someone and do damage without having to either explode the enemy or get exploded themselves, which tends to be a problem with melee attackers.

I was following your argument to adjust it in a way that helps immobile ADC more than mobile ADC, but then you pivoted to just making it melee only

OverpoweredSoapApr 29, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WjEW2fEM,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2018-04-29T04:04:06.037+0000)

I was following your argument to adjust it in a way that helps immobile ADC more than mobile ADC, but then you pivoted to just making it melee only

I really don't see a way to make it more wanted on immobile adcs than mobile ones is the issue.

Its obvious the item is also there to help melee crit/damage builders to not explode when they finally make contact with an enemy, so I was saying it would be easier to balance it towards them than ADCS.

Hexs FortuneApr 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I really don't see a way to make it more wanted on immobile adcs than mobile ones is the issue.

Its obvious the item is also there to help melee crit/damage builders to not explode when they finally make contact with an enemy, so I was saying it would be easier to balance it towards them than ADCS.

The item was reworked during the ADC crit update to help marksmen who like to duel. I feel melee users of phantom dancer are not the target audience.

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-522-notes#patch-marksman-itemization With the rise of a few new options for multiplying marksman damage, Phantom Dancer seeks to differentiate itself via sheer dueling power. Enabling both pursuit and escape, PD's new spooky effects empower the solo-splitpushing playmakers out there to take on the world (as long as it's one at a time).

OverpoweredSoapApr 29, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WjEW2fEM,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-29T05:18:36.188+0000)

The item was reworked during the ADC crit update to help marksmen who like to duel. I feel melee users of phantom dancer are not the target audience. With the rise of a few new options for multiplying marksman damage, Phantom Dancer seeks to differentiate itself via sheer dueling power. Enabling both pursuit and escape, PD's new spooky effects empower the solo-splitpushing playmakers out there to take on the world (as long as it's one at a time).

I know that.

I'm saying it would be easier to balance as a melee item and that taking less damage dealt to someone you're attacking is something that obviously lends itself towards a melee item (whether or not the intent is so) because they have to be in your face to do damage.

Hexs FortuneApr 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I know that.

I'm saying it would be easier to balance as a melee item and that taking less damage dealt to someone you're attacking is something that obviously lends itself towards a melee item (whether or not the intent is so) because they have to be in your face to do damage.

Phantom Dancer was specifically changed to give marksmen itemization along those lines so long as its a 1v1 situation. Melee already have itemization that fulfills those ends, which is why making it melee only doesn't make sense to me

TempName74814Apr 29, 20182 votes

it should probably last about as long as EC, but it really wouldn't have much effect, considering anybody who builds pd refreshes it twice a second

Supreme Senpai69Apr 29, 20182 votes

I don't really understand why it lasts that long if it refreshes every auto.

Linna ExcelApr 29, 20182 votes

Maybe it needs a long CD to be justifiable compared to the other items.

item 3087 - crazy burst item 3085 - AoE with on-hit support item 3094 - poke with a little burst item 3046 - dueling/chasing item.

I think the chasing aspect is a big part of the long CD. If someone flashes just out of your AA range but is withing the MS bonus range if you persue, they have to commit to the withdraw if they want the defensive bonus to go away. For shorter ranged ADCs and the few melee champs that use it, if they manage to get damage on a target, this actually gives them a window of protection against kiting. That along with the MS bonus really puts this item into the anti-kite category.

I almost wonder if the devs intended this item for melee carries so they can compete with ADCs.

Snowman ArcApr 29, 20181 votes

That only applies for melee champions. If you flash out of range of a ranged AA, then you are out of range of PD as well.

ThylasApr 29, 20182 votes

Yea phantom dancer definetly needs a nerf. It gives too much for the low price, especially for tryndamere and yasuo.

RìveńApr 29, 20182 votes

https://i.imgur.com/PT14jUN.png

How interesting...

MelledoneusApr 29, 20183 votes

http://m.memegen.com/n7gpr9.jpg

Bobloser3555Apr 29, 20181 votes

i dont get it...explain pls

TerozuApr 29, 20181 votes

Build it on Garen sometime XD. Its so fun.

ElohavenApr 29, 20181 votes

No, because it doesn't make a difference especially with Yasuo as it'd be constantly reset via melee attacks in melee range. Second, the item does not mitigate much damage. The powerspike isn't an instantly lost lane unless you fed earlier.

It helps out melees more than ranged as it allows them to have a 10 second grace period of running around to setup a play against ranged champions if needed.

The item is rarely sought after with only Yasuo being its main perpetrator.

The item is not the epitome of stat checking. Tryndamere is, but not Phantom Dancer. If it were, you would see a PD meta which I've never seen.

Linna ExcelApr 29, 20181 votes

It used to be core on Vayne as well, but not so much after her crit build came into play.