Now that Shyvana clears substantially slower can she actually be allowed to gank?

Mira Arya Enthe··31 votes·2,407 views

Even Udyr gets a stun if he gets in range. Leaving Shyvana now as the worst pre-six ganking in the game as of the WW rework. Shyvana's minirework made her quite strong and I agree her 20% bonus damage to monsters was the right place to hit her. But with counter jungling so dangerous for her and ganking rather hard, she has fallen off the map again with only a dragon steal gimmick that Yi, Xin and WW do also just not as fast.

What I would propose is adding a minor slow to her E. While not as strong as even Udyr's stun it is ranged. It also would give her pathetically low damage dragon's fire some more use.

Since she gets Frozen Mallet, BotRK, Randuins or Tri-Force later the slow would not need to scale. I would say something like on impact it slows by 25% for 1.5s. Or it could be for 1 second but also .5 seconds when she attacks a marked target(assuming she gets in range). The slow would barely make up for her E cast time without followup from her laner(you currently don't even cast E in many gamks except if already out of range and giving it that last oomph. Because the cast time is a huge detriment).

I feel this would take Shyvana further from "That person who farms till six then hopes to become a damage beast to make up for lost lanes."

Every other jungler in the game now has a pre-6 gap closer mobility spell or CC. I feel this addition would put Shyvana into line without breaking her. Her pre-6 ganks would still be mediocre but actually exist. Keeping her niche as the objective mid game jungler.

Thoughts?

52 Comments

Raiku Kawisa8 votes

I think Shyvana needs to be pushed into a Diver, or a Juggernaut. Give her some cc and push her into Diver. Or (what I would personally prefer) give her some sustain and durability and let her be a Juggernaut.

Right now, Shyvana needs to invest into a damage item and a tank item before she ever thinks about walking out of the jungle. No tank item, she dies before she outputs dmg. No Dmg item, the enemy team has little to fear from her. She needs to be able to do something.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

:>

Sire Hippington7 votes

I'd vastly prefer her actually reaching raidboss status in the lategame like she did in S2. Shyvana never was a ganking jungler, and imo that's perfectly fine.

Mira Arya Enthe11 votes

It's not anymore. There is no such thing as farm jungling now which is why Yi, old WW, Udyr and Shyvana were crap. But even Yi and Udyr have ganking power pre-six and WW was reworked.

Shyvana isn't even like Nasus, Darius, Illoai, Morde or Cho'Gath. She isn't a slow moving stack of HP and gradual damage. She moves fast, hits fast, kills fast.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

If she moves fast and kills fast, why does she need a slow? She has nearly permanent bonus movement speed, which is already rare enough for a juggernaut, and her ult is unstoppable and a dash.

Bringing up that "even Udyr has a stun" is not a good argument in my opinion. He has no dash, all his skills require him to AA, he lacks a real powerful ult and mostly he has a dead skill... He builds ad and uses tiger for damage which renders phoenix pretty useless or builds ap, uses phoenix and abandons tiger.

Shyvana ult grants her alot of power which is actually meant as juggernauts weaknesses. Dash, immune to cc and it is AoE cc itself.

Mira Arya Enthe6 votes

A: Because junglers have to gank.

B: She is a hybrid Juggernaut and diver. Viable champions from both those classes have hard CC or very strong soft CC. While I wouldn't give her anything as strong as Vi's ult or knockup or Darius pull and slow. A minor slow would let her do her job without buffing her numbers.

C: If anything I almost feel like she should be classed as a Diver. She plays more like Hec or Vi than Darius or Illoai.

Chembaron Yamada3 votes

Moves fast and kills fast

If this statement is true, she actually wouldn't need cc to gank efficiently. And if she is partly meant as a juggernaut and so should have the weakness of being easily kited... how are you kiting someone with permanent movement speed bonus and a slow? On top of an unstoppable dash post 6, of course.

The mix of juggernaut and diver is pretty hard to pull. Juggernauts are immobile by nature, but divers actually need mobility to dive. Giving her the damage and durability of a juggernaut on top of the stickiness of a diver is a bit much. Ult and W already give her 2 tools to get to her prey, now she needs even more stickiness?

I don't think she can be considered a juggernaut then anymore...

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Oh okay Vi and Hecarim don't need CC I guess or every other Diver/Skirmisher in LoL

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Oh okay Vi and Hecarim don't need CC I guess or every other Diver/Skirmisher in LoL

Also stop saying permanent lol. 3 seconds if you don't get in range to hit them. With a 12 cd.

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

No reason to get triggered.

I just wanted to point out that Shyvana hybrid nature can be quite a problem here. One being a class which is meant to be tanky and hard hitting, but lacking mobility. The other is defined by their mobility. That contradicts each other in my opinion.

I just say that I don't know if Shyvana should get more additional stickiness as long as she is considered a juggernaut.

Mira Arya Enthe6 votes

Shyvana has none of the major Juggernaut foghting strengths. No in fight sustain and no CC.

She has one diver strength, a leap, divers have that on normal abilities. She also lacks their CC.

She has the weaknesses of both and her only redeeming value is high damage with some mobility, not much.

Asayake 5150glow7 votes

Shyv's E is decently useful as it is, easily dealing >10% of their health in magic damage.

Chilling smite already does the job of the slow, if you opted for Challenging smite then you should be invading.

Instead of letting Shyv gank, why don't we just make her dueling better? Kindred is out of the meta, so anti-kite isn't as useful in duels. An increase in Q scalings, E damage, or base health would help, especially extra defenses as not to be oneshot by the lvl 3 Rengar. As a juggernaut, if she catches you she certainly deserves to kill you, or have a decent shot at it.

Another solution could be to reduce her W CD with every auto attack on champions. Would help with sticking and dueling. I repeat, as a juggernaut, if she catches you she certainly deserves to kill you. But as a juggernaut, she should also have a hard time getting to you in the first place - this is alleviated enough midgame with items like Chilling smite, Bork, Randuins, and DMP.

Arcus Diabolus6 votes

She should honestly just get buffed. A slow would be nice for ganking, but I miss the days I could be super aggressive early on and by lvl 3, someone was gonna die.

Ahristocats4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WiKcgQ9z,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-02T12:03:15.043+0000)

What I would propose is adding a minor slow to her E.

Minor? you're not going to do anything with this then

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

I appreciate you comment here. I feel a minor slow is enough to let Darius get in range for his pull or to let GP position his barrel slow or to let her catch Vayne if not condemned. It's "enough" without being too much. Shyvana plays like a Diver, Hec or Vi, but lacks the CC they have making her hardly viable. I'd be happy to hear your suggestions though.

Ahristocats2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WiKcgQ9z,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-04-02T17:45:36.327+0000)

I appreciate you comment here. I feel a minor slow is enough to let Darius get in range for his pull or to let GP position his barrel slow

fair enough, i just don't get why a telegraphed skillshot should do a minor slow when ivern Q snares for 2 sec and skarner E is almost a snare+stun if he attacks

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Shyvana has none of the major Juggernaut fighting strengths. No in fight sustain and no CC.

She has one diver strength, a leap, on an ult, divers have that on normal abilities. She also lacks their CC.

She has the weaknesses of both and her only redeeming value is high damage with some mobility, not much. Especially since her clear was gutted.

So I'd take anything over nothing.

RaiokuMoonscar3 votes

She doesn't need a slow in her kit when she builds so many anyway, and she counter jungles just fine with the right pathing and still clears faster than just about everyone. Power farming on her is still viable just don't forget about your lanes in the process, efficiency is key.

Only thing I agree with is her burning tick rates should be faster.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

I appreciate the sentiment but she will always do crap without early ganking power, which nowadays is a requirement to jungle. Buying a second or fourth item with a slow doesn't fixs this, like chilling smite anybody can buy a slow, that doesn't make the effective gankers.

ForFoxSakes2 votes

I picked up shyv just this season and Mastery 6 (1 token from 7) and the issues you mention of:

But with counter jungling so dangerous for her and ganking rather hard,

is non existent if you take exhaust. She's one of the few champs who doesnt need ghost/flash since once you get 6 her R can be used as a flash to escape or gap close and has a super low cooldown

With an extra combat summoners it makes her invades very safe who can win skirmishes vs the enemy jungler, or you can gank a lane with an exhaust. Most of the time she's better used to counter jungle, kill/duel the enemy jungler so they cant gank your lanes and that's how you protect your lanes from removing their jungler. Pretty easy to win jungler vs jungler trades when you have exhaust and they dont

Not even jungler needs to be a ganker

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Shyvana has none of the major Juggernaut fighting strengths. No in fight sustain and no CC.

She has one diver strength, a leap, divers have that on normal abilities. She also lacks their CC.

She has the weaknesses of both and her only redeeming value is high damage with some mobility, not much. Especially since her clear was gutted.

ForFoxSakes2 votes

clear wasnt gutted. first clear its slower but after that still one of the fastest with auto then double tap tiamat/hydra on top of burnout. Her strength is counterjungling and split pushing, which none of the other divers do as well. If you're looking for a ganker and teamfighter pick someone else. no point making all champs do the same thing

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

Oh so she is just as shitty as Yi, Udyr and Trynd and shouldn't be improved. Got it.

ForFoxSakes3 votes

just because you're shitty on them doesnt mean they need buffs

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

They are statistically shitty your feelings and my skills have nothing to do with it.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

I wouldn't call a champion with 50,1% winrate in the jungle in plat+ statistically shitty, though.

Greyrick2 votes

Why not fix her passive as well since it's so map specific and useless unless you kill the dragons every game?

Ben Sharpio1 votes

no she has her own identity of being a powerfarmer now dont buff her before we experience how annoying she can be when shes meta

Mira Arya Enthe7 votes

That isn't an identity. There were about 7 Powerfarmers. Shyvana was one of them. They are removing that gameplay style. Power farmers are either shit or reworked(WW)

Shyvana has had her power farming removed already. Between the devourer era nerfs of S5 and the removal of her 20% bonus damage to monsters she already lost that identity. Many better gankers farm faster and safer while being in general stronger.

Anhartamin1 votes

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Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

She also had a very low play rate and still does. Plus she currently has a 47%? win rate.

Anhartamin1 votes

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Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Incorrect. In the patch where Vi had a 15% play rate and 55% win rate and heck trailing right behind Shyvana was 53.7% win rate with a 4.8% play rate. The highest she has been since S5.

Forhonor3211 votes

As much as I would love a slow on her to be able to gank pre-six, I just don't see this ever working since chilling smite exists and unless she got a major rework unlike her minor one. Really if she's going to be a counter jungler/duelist type champ, they should try focusing on that a bit more.

Add back some AD scaling on her Q, not like it was before (80% was kinda high when you think about it) but somewhere in-between what it was before and is now. Maybe even buff her like Singed and Mundo where her W tick is on every half second or something. It's ridiculous that those champs get that treatment but Shyv is left in the dust. Or even like someone mentioned before, make her W CD reduce when fighting champs.

I just don't see adding a minor slow to her E helping her as much as buffing anything else or just giving her a better rework.

Linna Excel1 votes

What if her AA's stun a target hit with her E the first time she hits them?

Mostro Gallo1 votes

THIS GAME DOES NOT NEED MORE MINDLESS CC

Mannny1 votes

The issue is she was a heavy farm jungler and they gutted farm junglers so now she needs to be a gank jungler but she was never a gank jungler in the first place.

RIP.

4NoxiousHours1 votes

Whynot just give her a builtin ignite on her Q? obviously not a real ignite but a burning damage over time like brand.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Rework her, since all the transforming champs are balancing nightmares.

Nidalee : Don't need to explain this one Jayce EliseShyvana constantly overbearing or really bad.

Mira Arya Enthe6 votes

Shyvana is nowhere near the functionality of those. Her ult is a leap with a small heal. It makes her abilities AoE. It is a fairly normal ult. It doesn't change her gameplay at all however. While I'd love a proper rework it has zip to do with her transformation. It has to do with her low mechanical skill requirements and not dragon enough feel.

Troll for Trump1 votes

I'm not talking about now, but also in the past as well

The problem with transform champs (that freely transform) is how they budget the kit's power.

Her dragon transformation doesn't feel cool, because they can't make it feel cooler without hurting her human form, which hurts her clears.

Unlike other champs, which should be switching constantly, she uses fury, so her limited-time transformation is supposed to be something more special.

If she were a top laner, it would be easier to balance.

As a jgler, it's a lot harder.

Troll for Trump3 votes

The point I'm making isn't that Shyv is OP, it's that, she, like every transforming champ, is really difficult to balance.

Greyrick1 votes

{quoted}

Rework her, since all the transforming champs are balancing nightmares.

Nidalee : Don't need to explain this one Jayce EliseShyvana constantly overbearing or really bad.

Jayce gets range and a massive speed up. Elise gets the escape with her spider form plus cocoon and being able to switch bewtween as freely as Nidalee. Shyvana can't transform as freely as any of those three others, she has no stun, barely a speed up in her W, slow as hell when she goes dragon form even with W. No way to escape in her kit unless the ult is used as the escape.

Troll for Trump2 votes

The point I'm making isn't that Shyv is OP, it's that, she, like every transforming champ, is really difficult to balance.

RaiokuMoonscar1 votes

I still think the only things needing fixed is her passive (a more balanced version of the one being tested on PBE a while back) and her burn tick rates, other than that she is fine and I never really have an issue ganking as her, always either get the kill or a summoner burned as long as its the right lane to gank and the pathing was good.

She doesn't need a slow on a base ability. No matter how much I'd like one, it'd just be overbearing.

Really wanting that passive they were testing back, those buffs were just too good though >.< Tone them down or change what they buff then maybe it'd work

Smitemuffin1 votes

Shyvana ganks just fine, she only does it differently than most junglers thought of as "gankers".

Tuplamela1 votes

Maybe add a bit to her W where she fears everyone for 1s when she triggers the ability, meaning that IF you can sneak behind the enemy, you have a chance to CC them for a bit (making them run towards the laner). If the CC was in E, she could use her W to run to catch with her target making the ganks (too?) easy. Having the CC in W would require her to be more cunning about her ganks while making them viable against over extended enemies and generally offer a trade off. Problem is that this would likely make her clear better...

Greyrick1 votes

I kind of miss the pre-mini re-work shyvana, where her W left a fire trail behind the dragon form as well as the fire circle. If we could bring that back, it would at least make her escape a little more viable.

PapaGreg211 votes

They just need to revert that last nerf on her q. It allowed her to have a nice "nuke" on her early game when you are ganking or dueling and was usually enough to secure a kill while doing so. After the nerf you are usually just using it for the on-hit effects which aren't as helpful until after an item or 2 are built.

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