We are already seeing Redemption on more then just the support. I would not be surprised to see Banner or Locket bough by others fairly often as the season goes on.
Maximum Morde9 votesDon't worry. I have a surefire method of telling if an item is becoming a problem. Just watch Ezreal players and if they start to build it, it's a problem.
PhantomGG7 votesi'm honestly fine with it, for it makes the person useing it play a "support" style, support isn't just a lane position it's also a play style.
ZephyrDrake3 votesi'm honestly fine with it, for it makes the person useing it play a "support" style, support isn't just a lane position it's also a play style.
yeah but then the items get nerfed because they are being used by people that are not meant to use the item and then the supports that actually need the item are left with a nerfed item while the rest just move on with little to no consequence. Hell there are people even without any heals or shields getting redemption that is stupid and needs to stop
SithesisLord5 votesSoloRenektonOnly often buys Locket. And he takes ignite.
I´d hardly say he has a support playstyle.
PureSilvrr3 votesSupports can take ignite
Surfer Ashe2 votesAnd how is that different from Renekton rushing Sunfire with Ignite?
Both are viable defensive options.
SithesisLord3 votesLocket is only built after core items. Black Cleaver, Boots, Titanic then Locket.
Sunfire offers defenses against only one form of damage. And while it is suitable for champions that are tanky and don´t have waveclear, against teams with both AD and AP in their composition, Locket is considerably better.
Surfer Ashe4 votesYeah but you're missing the point.
How is Locket any worse than another defensive item on renekt? How is it an indicator that it may be OP because Renekton is building it?
ChaoticPinecone2 votesThe poster was talking more about the player, SoloRenktonOnly, rather than Renekton as a champion. Renekton can play a supportive-tank role if desired. Nobody disputes that.
Its just that SoloRenektonOnly (Diamond/Challenger player on NA if i remember correctly) plays a very splitpush/1v1/Toplane carry style of Renekton. He always gets at least 2 bruiser items (Black Cleaver and Titanic) at the very least, sometimes with a Deaths Dance, and only takes Flash+Ignite to win his lane (instead of Flash/TP for the map plays). So when a Diamond/Challenger player who plays a 1v1 style of Renekton with Flash+Ignite as his summoners decides to buy a Locket, you have to wonder why. He doesnt get Maw or Edge of Night, which would seem to synergize very well with his bruiser style of Renekton. It could be true that he is itemizing for being a support in teamfights, but that just isnt his playstyle nor does it make sense with his build or summoner choices. It seems like he is buying Locket because its the best defensive choice for MR to win 1v1s.
So if we assume that Locket is a strong teamfight/support item, but a Challenger/Master player like SoloRenektonOnly uses it as his 1v1 item, the item itself might be overtuned.
SithesisLord2 votesIt´s not worse. In fact it´s better. Doesn´t make it OP by any extent, but it is quite the double resistance item. Offers about the same amount of resistances than ZZ'Rot and GA do, having just 5 to 15 less than either, while being cheaper. On Renekton, it´s bought for the resistances, not the shield itself. That being said, they could reduce its resistances and increase the shield if it eventually becomes a problem. And since it´s League, eventually every item becomes a problem once or twice.
As for Redemption....it´s what every tanky frontline or squishy backline support want, with a few exceptions to that. More health, faster regens and CDR.
WHILE being able to use its active when dead. Time and time again i see teamfights get flipped around because of a single well timed Redemption active. And it takes the targets' level into consideration, rather than the user's level.
Higher level people get healed more, regardless of the level whoever used it is. Since the support is expected to be at least 1, 2, on some cases even three levels below the ADC, changing that to consider the user's level rather than the targets' health, reducing the base health and upping the per level heal by 5 should solve the issue. It´ll be 25 HP worth of more heal at level 18(515 if the base heal changes to 65 and per level to 25, against 490 with 130 base and 20 per level) though. We won´t know what Riot will do to it when they get back from holidays.
AMYS GRAVE1 votesWhy is a locket rush such a bad thing? Why is it supposed to be weaker than other items? Why is it that other classes get strong items to rush but support isn't allowed to have those items?
SithesisLord2 votesBecause powerful support items don´t stay on supports. Redemption and Knight's Vow being built on Udyr, for instance, or several patches ago when FQC was built by most if not every mana based AP mid.
AMYS GRAVE1 votesIf Udyr is building redemption and Knight's Vow he is gimping himself pretty hard. That's a pretty troll build, even if the person building it was good and the game turned out well.
FQC was build by mid laners because their mana regen got gutted, and it was the only viable mana regen option. That was a bigger problem than support itemization.
Redemption is too strong right now, but it just came out, give it a patch to be balanced out. When it is balanced why is it a problem on other roles? You see steraks build on ADCs which is a juggernaut item. You see Youmuu's build on ADCs even though it is an assassin item. You see black cleaver built on tanks, juggernauts, divers, and occasionally ADCs.
So i ask again why are cross class items a problem, but only when its a support item getting the cross class treatment?
Also you haven't told me why locket is a problem on other champions.
Ariel the Cruel2 votesSo i ask again why are cross class items a problem, but only when its a support item getting the cross class treatment?
All your other examples were complained about at some point or another. That's just forum mob mentality.
No point or purpose to this post. Just pointing that out.
Ariel the Cruel2 votesBecause support doesn't have enough gold to afford those strong items. So when support items are comparable to non-suppot items, they end up steamrolling the competition by virtue of how quickly laners can finish them.
AMYS GRAVE1 votes(Just for clarity, my previous post was in reference to the locket renekton complaint, so i'm focusing on locket here.)
Support items are cheap and quickly purchased, true, but they tend to be very slot inefficient. This way you're trading your late game power for a quicker rush. Support items need to be gold efficient while being slot inefficient in order to be good support items while not being used by other lanes. If the item is slot inefficient and still used on lanes then i don't see that as a problem because that is a real tradeoff. This was the problem with FQC last season because it was a slot efficient support item given the alternative mage itemization at the time.
I don't think locket is slot efficient enough for this to be the concern though, because when you compare it to a ZZrot for instance it pales in comparison by raw stats alone (25 extra armor + 125% HP regen -5MR for an additional 500 gold just looking at stats). Locket has 76% gold efficiency without active while ZZrot has 91% gold efficiency without active or passive. As another comparison redemption has 92% gold efficiency on a cheap item, which is why i think it is perceived as so strong for such a cheap item. It can maintain its strong active if they lower its base stats so it is in line with other support items.
If you buy locket on a laner you're sacrificing a lot of stats in that item slot to do so, and calling for its nerf because some champions are finding success with it is silly.
Also as an aside just because it is a gold efficient, slot inefficient, large impact active item doesn't make it a support item (see protobelt or zhonyas) so i'm curious as to what makes an item a support item that is not ok to build on laners (gold gen items and sightstone obviously aside).
Ariel the Cruel1 votes(Just for clarity, I was focusing on your third sentence.)
Support items need to be gold efficient while being slot inefficient in order to be good support items while not being used by other lanes.
That's my post in a nut-shell.
Support items can't be strong because they will warp other roles through their necessity to be cheap.
so i'm curious as to what makes an item a support item that is not ok to build on laners
You defined it yourself. It has to be cheap, efficient, and relatively weak. Strong actives with poor stats is one way to accomplish this. Anything expensive, they can't reasonably afford. Anything strong, can't be cheap. All-around neutral item will be a late buy on supports and rushed on others (See Morello's).
AMYS GRAVE1 votesYeah but by that definition locket isn't a support item because it is very gold inefficient, while Zhonyas and protobelt would be support items by that definition. I think we can agree that my definition is necessary but not sufficient to define support items, no?
Ariel the Cruel1 votesIs it perfect? No. As long as all champions have equal access to all items and stats (ignoring smite), there can be no perfect definition.
Locket's active makes it super efficient during brief windows. So it still qualifies under that definition ("Strong active with poor stats"). According to wiki (I'm not doing more math right now), it only has to provide 195 shield to become efficient. It Provides ~600 per person at lvl 18 (3000 on full team).
Zhonya's and protobelt would be support items if the actives were reasonably useful on them. So those I'll concede.
AMYS GRAVE1 votesLockets active grants it big windowed power, but there are other items with similar properites like GA, mercurial, etc.... I guess locket is stuck with the support item mentality because of the aura it used to have and people associate it with that use? It has really become a cross class item and i don't see that as a problem.
Ariel the Cruel1 votesbut there are other items with similar properites like GA, mercurial
GA has the same problem as Zhonya's: the active isn't reasonably usable on the support. You're job is to save others. Nobody will give even a first thought to pulling your ass out of the fire.
While the active and MR on merc are nice, scimitar is expensive and the AD+LS aren't useful on most supports. Crucible will also get you out of most scenarios that sash would.
[Current] Locket's support status has nothing to do with the old aura. The shield doesn't stack, so it's inefficient to have multiples on the team. The stats are inefficient without the shield so others likely won't want it. That puts it in a similar camp as sight stone.
I personally don't have a problem with support items making rounds in a vacuum. It when they end up warping itemization that we see problems (S4 FQC).
AMYS GRAVE1 votesyeah, i just meant that strong actives or windowed power wasn't limited to support itemization.
Akali is SO HOT6 votesThat item needs to be gutted asap
TwinkiePro2 votesTrue shit. Kinda silly seeing a Udyr build that and knights vow, all while still kicking your ass.
GinoSoldier4 votesIf Riot could just acknowledge that supports don't NECESSARILY need to be the single weakest role to play in league, it'd be totally fine for people to play with support items. But as it is, supports aren't allowed to outdamage or outlast anyone else in combat, and so any item that might show a hint of being strong is liable to be nerfed.
Ariel the Cruel3 votessupports don't NECESSARILY need to be the single weakest role
Actually. . . They do. Simple math: 4 income streams, 5 champions. Someone has to get the short stick, and most of the support problems stem from there.
The reason support items can't be strong is because they would overtake non-support items. The shortage of gold in the support role means their items have to be cheap (relative). Cheap items have to be weaker than standard items, or they push them out (See FQC). If you increase support income, then support [champions] get forced out of the game (See start of S4).
Now if Riot wants to change the game at a foundational level to fix this, then I'm all for it! But unless they do, Support role will get the short stick every time by design,
GinoSoldier2 votes[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WekAyp0U,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-12-30T08:33:28.800+0000)
Actually. . . They do. Simple math: 4 income streams, 5 champions. Someone has to get the short stick, and most of the support problems stem from there.
The reason support items can't be strong is because they would overtake non-support items. The shortage of gold in the support role means their items have to be cheap (relative). Cheap items have to be weaker than standard items, or they push them out (See FQC). If you increase support income, then support [champions] get forced out of the game (See start of S4).
Now if Riot wants to change the game at a foundational level to fix this, then I'm all for it! But unless they do, Support role will get the short stick every time by design,
That last line of your reply is what i'm going for. Support items (FQC/FotM/TA) can easily fill that gap, they already are doing it to an extent. There are plenty other ways to add to a support's income. Ward kills, assists, ambient gold gain, masteries... The options are there, riot just doesn't seem to check it.
Community's also a huge part of the problem. If supports get stronger, strong enough to par in terms of fighting efficiency, carries and mains will complain that supps are too strong not because it makes them win/lose, but because they're used to being able to dominate supports and feel entitled to be stronger. This is a large part of what makes people hate playing the role.
Ariel the Cruel2 votesThe options are there, riot just doesn't seem to check it.
The options are there. Riot did explore it. Beginning of S4 Riot boosted support income to near laner levels. The result was lane champions taking over the support role and Janna was the only support to not get pushed out. That's why changes need to be made to the game at a deeper level.
AMYS GRAVE1 votessupports don't NECESSARILY need to be the single weakest role
...
Actually. . . They do. Simple math: 4 income streams, 5 champions. Someone has to get the short stick, and most of the support problems stem from there.
Gold isn't the only measure of strength, and just because they don't get a gold stream doesn't mean they can't be strong.
EDIT: grammar for clarity.
Ariel the Cruel1 votesGold isn't the only measure of strength
Are you talking support role or support champions?
The role has to be balanced around reduced income. With vision roaming, it also has to be balanced around reduced exp. With sightstone, it is also balanced around 1 less item slot. This happens because there isn't enough revenue for 5 people. Somebody is always going to come up short by design to ensure the other 4 are optimized. The meta has decided that support should take the hit, therefore it will always have to be weaker by design.
Gold isn't the only factor in strength, but it is major factor of roles (top,mid,jung,bot,sup - as defined by Riot). Gold and experience are also the only scaling factor of roles.
Just pumping gold into the support role ends up with pushing all the support champions out. Reference the start of S4 when Janna was the only support being played. That's why it would take some drastic changes to LoL's foundation to truly resolve most of the support [role] problems,
AMYS GRAVE1 votesRight, the supports strength has to come from their kits, but that doesn't mean they are weaker than other roles.
Ariel the Cruel1 votes"Kits" are support champions. Income is support role.
They are two different topics.
Support champions don't have to be weaker. They can be made strong enough to compensate for the role's disadvantages as long as that power is gated to prevent them from solo laning (that problem again).
Support role has to be weaker, otherwise the other roles become less optimized. Which weakens the team as a whole.
AMYS GRAVE1 votesI would argue that the topics are intertwined, but i think i get the distinction you're trying to make. I would say that the support role as you say gets less gold, but because they are populated by support champions then that causes supports holistically to be powerful in their own respect, or at least that's the balance i would personally like to see.
Ariel the Cruel1 votesWhile that would be great, it hasn't really been a thing since they implemented "support scaling" in S4. They're trying again with the shield/heal buffs which helps enchanters, but not so much tanks. Zeke's and knight's are a good steps, but they walk a razor's edge in balance.
Covert Ops Gnar3 votesTfw Braum is buying Redemption instead of Knight's Vow
Ariel the Cruel3 voteswhy not both? ;p
ADepressedLeona3 votesI don''t see other roles building redemption.
Unless you count Ivern, but he's basically a support who can jungle.
ahferroin73 votesIt happens more the higher ELO the player is because they tend to be less willing to be constrained by meta-game. The same was the case with the old version of FQC. In high level play, it was not uncommon to see mid-laners with one. In low-level play, it was pretty rare.
warmcorntortilla3 votesActually I'd argue that it's the other way around, the items are too gold efficient with too good of stats. They need a nerf to the base stats, and you'd stop seeing solo-laners waste gold on a support active. I mean, look at 
. An ungodly overpowered active, but the build path is complete and utter shit. Supports don't really need gold efficiency in base stats, I imagine, since their kits are already overloaded with gold value. I would, for instance, build redemption and locket on Janna no matter what, assuming the ACTIVE stayed as powerful.
I like powerful actives, because it makes me feel very, very impactful as the support. I have to say that Redemption is my absolute favorite support item, because of just how insanely game-changing it can be. Not only that, but it's exactly the sort of flashy play that gets you recognition. Everyone knows they won that otherwise-unwinnable-teamfight because I redemptioned at the right moment. It feels great.
They do need nerfs, but not to the actives! Renekton and Ahri and Lux and Darius don't actually want these actives! They're just very gold efficient items. Most solo laners know their teammates are boosted animals and would not waste a single gold on saving them if it weren't good for them, too. You can't solo carry as the mid/top with Redemption unless the base stats are tasty.
Please don't take Redemption away from me.
PureSilvrr2 votes1 Nobody ive seen takes redemption outside of support except for 
and 
2 Locket provides MAGIC RESIST on a tank item. the only other ones to do this are 
and people don't know Banshees and Zzrot exist so they are forced to buy
3 People already buy Banner outside of support. And 
was changed to build out some other item instead of ap, to encourage other champs to use it instead of just ap supports
Irelia Bot6 votesyou are wrong on so many levels about Banshee and ZZ'rot not being used.
And I have seen redemption bought on more then just nunu and Ivern outside of supports to great effect. And it is not something like the rare AP trynda you might see once every 6 months.
Slythion1 votesIve bought 
on Darius for shits and giggles lol
Troll for Trump2 votesYou can buy support on Juggernauts and tanks, but you lose out on a lot of stats.
Playing vs a juggernaut as Maokai or Sion, for instance, getting redemption first, or even second can screw you over.
With how quick laning phase ends, you can prob get it's components while making your 2nd item, or get it immediately after laning.
Slythion1 votesYa I was just so far ahead on Darius already that I decided to build it on him xD
Irelia Bot3 votesWell I am guilty of buying Banner and Locket on Irelia so you are not alone in abusing these support items.
Surfer Ashe2 votesRedemption's active is fine.
The random jump from 200HP of Crystalline Bracer to the 400HP Redemption for something slightly over 600 gold (which also includes Redemption's active) should be nerfed though.
Redemption should only have 250HP. Increasing the gold price only would serve to make it harder for supports to pick up.
ltmetal2 votesI've been building Aegis after a health item on top laners like 
and 
. Gives every defensive stat you need to roam and TP, plus builds into two low-cost defensive items nearly any top laner can use.
Teridax682 votesLocket's stats and effects now are purely tank-oriented, so I'm surprised it's not built more often on tanky top laners and junglers. What worries me as well, though, is how Janna, Karma, Nami and Morgana, all ostensibly squishy casters, are among its most frequent buyers. If nothing else, reducing the shield's bases and making it scale with health or resistances would stop it from being so universal across all supports.
Redemption, though, definitely has a popularity issue, and it's been an attractive pick on champions who have no business picking a support item. Reducing its cost and stats might make it a little less overpicked, but that just ends up leaving supports with a weaker item. I think this is good evidence that supports need a stat bound to them, which non-supports can't make good use of, which could finally allow support itemization to be strong without inevitably ending up being picked up by solo laners.
Linna Excel1 votesWell, riot could make exhaust a required support spell and then prevent people from buying support items without it.
Adriqnohee1 votesLocket is already a must buy on Renekton if the enemy has one or more good magic damage dealers.