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"Fighting other melees often degenerated into a pure stat check"

Ralanr··37 votes·2,450 views

This is pretty much why I dislike the concept of on hit champions. I don't really feel engaged when fighting them, I just feel like they're pulling a bunch of stats out of their asses.

Now I know on hit champions aren't strong right now, but I think we all remember how stupid they were in the devourer meta. You plats and above probably don't remember because afk farming for 20 minutes in high elo was a stupid move for any jungler to make. But in low elo players didn't have the knowledge to stop these champions from farming and it often felt like they couldn't stop them fast enough.

Let me ask, where is the interactive gameplay to say a Shyvana with frozen mallet and two good on hit items? If you can't 1v1 her, then you're effectively dead once she touches you since you'll never escape from the slow (not bashing shyvana). What fun is it when Yi doesn't even need to Q to take your health bar because of how many auto attacks he procs. How about when Xin Zhao just bum rushes you? Where's the interactive gameplay around that?

On hit melee champions are pretty weak right now and I'm really happy for it. I don't think that their current form of damage is all that healthy for the game. I'm all for sustained damage but I feel on hit is almost invisible in terms of power.

61 Comments

Final Spark Lux8 votes

On hit sacrifices certain stats for on hit damage. Not really invisible, it's just shifted the power.

Ralanr2 votes

I guess it feels sort of invisible due to how hard it becomes to itemize against with all that mixed damage.

RainbowIcee1 votes

Also they have certain decition making abilities that change or "trick" the outcome of a fight. Example Aatrox gains more attack speed + extra damage activating his Q which procs a 3 hit extra damage and fills his red gauge faster. On the other hand deactivating it will allow him to regain health and using both wisely changes the outcome of a fight and harass. Jax can also play with smart with his dodge and stun ability aswell as deciding when to go all in with the ult and his escape/engage Q. Even Master yi can make good gameplay changing decisions for when to alpha strike to dodge or not. Also Fiora is an auto attacker aswell and there's no debate that her kit can be use in more ways than just AA. Also kled has some sweet moves up his sleeve aswell as great switch and bait techniques.

EndlessSorcerer6 votes

Honestly, Master Yi doesn't really use Q as a damage abilty outside of the early-game. He needs to time it appropriately since it serves as his main gap closer and defensive ability.

Honestly, you shouldn't be trying to 1v1 certain on-hit oriented champions anyways; many of them (i.e. Shyvana, Master Yi) excel in duels, so you are just fighting on their terms.

That said, Kayle is horrible to deal with whenever she is strong. Considering her E provides additional range, she is probably one of the worst abusers of on-hit effects.

Ralanr2 votes

I know. I'm just expressing that I feel on hit champions promote an unhealthy stat checking playstyle.

AirKingNeo3 votes

Not really. It's like crit but in a different form.

Every non-onhit champion is a stat checking playstyle too. Get your easy free 40% CDR and you win.

Cloud2732 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, Master Yi doesn't really use Q as a damage abilty outside of the early-game. He needs to time it appropriately since it serves as his main gap closer and defensive ability.

Honestly, you shouldn't be trying to 1v1 certain on-hit oriented champions anyways; many of them (i.e. Shyvana, Master Yi) excel in duels, so you are just fighting on their terms.

That said, Kayle is horrible to deal with whenever she is strong. Considering her E provides additional range, she is probably one of the worst abusers of on-hit effects.

On hit damage is literally the only way Kayle ever wins fights. The base damage on her abilities is simply too low.

Troll for Trump1 votes

You shouldn't try to 1v1, but all 1v1 champs just force you to 1v1. Which is fine and dandy, as that's what they should do, but it feels unrewarding for any nondueslit

AirKingNeo2 votes

That said, Kayle is horrible to deal with whenever she is strong. Considering her E provides additional range, she is probably one of the worst abusers of on-hit effects.

Kayle's E makes her ranged because her playstyle and kit is that of a ranged carry. She even has bad base stats of ranged champions though higher base HP and armor but only at highest levels. Her E cooldown gates her earlygame quite a bit and her lack of MR per level makes any mage with a stun hard counter her. Kayle isn't supposed to be melee so the argument of it granting additional range is saying Kayle has a weakness not an advantage.

Abuser implies Kayle isn't supposed to build onhit damage, but you're incredibly wrong because she is supposed to build onhit. I'll even give you an example of abuse: Tristana is supposed to build Crit items, however she is abusing rageblade by building it as she isn't made to. Unlike Tristana, Jax is supposed to build Rageblade and isn't an abuser. But let's assume to your situation that Kayle is an abuser of onhit, what is she supposed to be building instead then? More AP? Bad AP ratios mostly. More AD? No W AD ratio. Crit? No crit synergy or AD ratios. Attack speed? At that point you're admitting you're wrong.

SwordOfWar1 votes

How is rageblade abuse on tristana if 3 of her abilities benefit from AP? I don't get why she wouldn't be "supposed" to build anything, especially something that works perfectly with her kit.

Edit. And her bomb is designed to reward her for sustained combat by getting stronger the more times you shoot, so an item that gets better with sustained autos makes perfect sense. Her Q is an AS steroid to stack it quickly. Basically everything in her kit gets better with rageblade, and if riot didn't want ranged to use the rageblade they could make it melee only, but its not, so they are clearly fine with it.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Don't know but that's an example of her abusing it according to the rest of the world. I mean I could bring up countless examples but my point still holds true.

Kayle is supposed to build on hit, therefore she is not an abuser.

SwordOfWar1 votes

But how do you know Tristana is not supposed to use it?

AirKingNeo1 votes

because she's supposed to build Crit, AD, and attack speed, not hybrid items.

That's like saying Riven isn't supposed to abuse CotC.

SwordOfWar1 votes

That's just your opinion though. Nowhere does it say a marksmen needs to build that way.

kile1471 votes

Riot wants CoC to work on Riven though

Spoofghoul6 votes

And crit/lifesteal is any different?

it's the same deal, in the end its dps and thus ends up in a statcheck

and neither have good options for counterbuilding due to all the mixed and true damage or that retarded armorpen item so if its strong its opressive because you dont even get the time to do something in return

in either case you can't dodge or outplay in any way outside of dont go near them . . .

the only thing which works is cc but thats not counterplay cc is the general anti everything tool so i won't really consider it counterplay

the only other option is burst, another for om dealing damage which lacks counterplay at least riot tried to make it better with assassin update

Ralanr4 votes

You provide a good point. It seems that anything that builds around auto attacks hitting faster just feels like stat checking.

Big Lincoln5 votes

Ranged champions are the ultimate stat check

riot just actively despises melees that aren't tanks

Ralanr2 votes

Yeah, ranged AA's suck

Sona x Rubick4 votes

Jax remind me when was he a problem design wise? the only 2 moments he was broken were when: -his early game was insane -ginsoo was legit roflstomp

TehNACHO21 votes

And then he stopped existing in between those periods.

Or as the thread puts it, he failed the stat check, he lost.

Sona x Rubick6 votes

no way, Jax in late game right now exists A LOT. Few champions can manage to get the late game he has

but to get this late game, you need to survive the laning phase which is a challenge right now with champs like riven and ranged top laners.

Ralanr7 votes

Isn't that why he migrated to the jungle?

Sona x Rubick2 votes

idk, didn't see a jax since ages

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

only if you draft a team with no cc is when you lose to Jax. if you have any half decent aoe mage jax is usless since he is no drain tank and his base hp is low and he doesn't have a whole lot of ways to get himself out of ways damage. his base stats are low. his sticking power is abyssmal. he has a short stun and not a slow. a slow would have made him better. he has no movement speed boosts.

i have 250k mastery on Jax and hes very easy to deal with at any point of the game as long as you have a mage with some cc. thats all you need. hes just as bad as yi in team fights if not worse because you can't kite yi.

he loses every single matchup top lane in lane except maybe kled is a match up jax can win.

Ralanr3 votes

Granted Yi doesn't have an AoE stun.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

its a 1 second stun that he has to use his only dash to intiate and its a slow dash that can be cced halfway. short ranged dash. you just blow him the fuck up if he has the balls to dash onto you. all you need is a mage. jax is extremely weak against mages because he has no sustain at all whatsoever.

Sona x Rubick3 votes

Jax won't and WILL NEVER stun more than 2 targets with his E the aoe is so small and it's incredibly telegraphed.

Ralanr1 votes

Yeah, but it provides more than Yi can when either are behind for teamfights.

Sona x Rubick3 votes

that's because of yi's kit

riot has no idea how to make melee adc(now they have an idea since 2013 but yi is from 2009) Jax's utility is so fucking small compared to real melee adc Nocturne Yasuo Fiora Gangplank

Ralanr1 votes

Well yeah, my point was against his argument that Jax is just as bad as Yi in teamfights.

Sona x Rubick1 votes

of course he is, 1 sec stun on one or two target won't help you when the other melee adc has slow immunity and true damage on hit that scales

Ralanr2 votes

Idk, there are a lot of times where a single stun turns it around.

statelesskiller3 votes

stun the adc. oh look gp barrel. oh look no more adc.

theres also the wombo, a good ori ult into a jax stun is heavenly

a multi man sion q can set up a jax stun as well

people dont give jaxs AOE stun as much credit as it deserves

PlanetWarwick1 votes

Jax jump on adc Assumig theres a decent team

  1. Jax insta cc and lockdown and blown up
  2. If anyone tried to get close to the adc they get blown up aswell
Talisid1 votes

I agree that he's weak in teamfights, even late game, unless he gets fed. However I think you're under rating the value that strong duelist champions like Jax can bring to the team in terms of split pushing. It really makes little difference how much CC the enemy team has when Jax is only ever looking to fight 1on1.

Of course there is still the issue of his weak early game which is why most people go to Fiora or Quinn for this style of play.

TehNACHO9 votes

EXACTLY

AirKingNeo2 votes

He lost his stat check because he needs to stat check because his kit is horribly outdated in both animation speeds and damage. Seriously, he's not wrong. Jax has never been a problem design wise and Riot broke their promise saying they'd keep him a competitive pick.

KoKoboto3 votes

The buffs to Guinnsoo's Rageblade made Kayle even stronger than she already was. However she's not being noticed lol

Wheatloaf3 votes

A lot of on-hit/attack speed melees suffer from the problems Riot was outlining in the post about fighters, yes. They just get onto people and start wailing on them, with most of their counterplay centering around getting them off (in which case they're useless apart from the pressure they've generated) or failing to do so (in which case someone is pretty definitely dead). All on-hit/attack speed melees are some sort of fighter, though, (arguably even Kayle), and thus exactly what Riot was referring to.

For those of you who didn't see the article, you can find it here.

Teridax682 votes

I agree with this. On-hit effects are extremely difficult to design around, because you need to create an effect that can be healthy even when applied every 0.4 seconds, while still feeling powerful enough to be worth picking. A lot of on-hit effects are basically just damage or life steal, but Frozen Mallet's slow is consistently unhealthy, whereas effects like Wit's End's MR reduction or Guinsoo's stat stacks are just very difficult to directly appreciate in the middle of combat. Just switching all of these effects to three-hit passives would already allow them to feel more interesting, but really, on-hit itemization needs a much larger overhaul if it is to be good at more than just providing pseudo-AD that specific champions abuse.

Bultz2 votes

Are you seriously crying about how broken melee champions are when they are at the bottom of the list of champions? I'm sorry those champions who can shoot from across the field and have easier kits and more advantages in game, while melee champions can't even fight in top lane anymore, are giving you trouble to play with. Like Annie is one hitting people, but let's cry about yi? really? come on....

Ralanr6 votes

Yes, because expressing a negative opinion towards a subject is automatically whining about it. Sorry I rustled your jimmies.

LankPants2 votes

I've never had a problem with 'stat checks' in general. There's just other ways to play around on-hit champs, you don't have to 1v1 them, you can play around the map. This is why I prefer metas where there's bruisers and tanks playable, they drive the strategy of the game. When it's only Assassins/Mages/ADCs the game devolves into a shitfest where strategy goes out of the window.

Serika Zero2 votes

its not, by design all melee champions are stat checks its stupid to make an argument against making them a stat check.

Look at fiora (post rework). First week ........ shit stats ....... shit win rate ........ shit play rate ........ trash tier They buffed her stats a bit.................................... often played at worlds, often played in first half of s6 Nerf her stats a bit........................... nobody picks her

Every single melee hero design is a stat check......... its retarded to even make that statement. "We don't like this hero because its a stat stick, so we are reworking"............ and then it ends up the same because still melee. But hey, rito games feed bullshit and a lot of the players believe it. Oh rito said fiora ain't a stat check after her rework, sweet. They must be right otherwise they won't have said that.

Don't know who's more stupid. Riot for bullshitting and lying or some "special" players for believing it

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

Juggernauts are designed to be the quintessential stat-check melees with their base stats and simple kits.

I see nothing wrong with stat checking. I'd rather face a stat checker with some counterplay than an overloaded asshole like jayce.

Ralanr1 votes

Except the basic counterplay to stat checking is either out stat them or avoid them. The only juggernauts that seem to really have this problem are Garen, Mundo, Mordekaiser, and Nasus.

Illaoi, Darius, and Yorick have other forms of counterplay beyond just out stating them. At least IMO.

Alex h87211 votes

This is why you have people to peel/cc etc, if there were only certain types of champs picked b/c they were stronger the game would get stale. When Shyvana jumps on you is when your Nautilus needs to hook them away or ult them so you can get out of range.

This game is not and should never be balanced around 1v1 matchups b/c it is a team game based around teamwork & objectives.

Ralanr2 votes

I'm not arguing that the game needs to be balanced around 1v1. I'm arguing that on hit champions are pretty much a stat check playstyle which Riot has been trying to remove from the game (stat checking core gameplay I mean).

xxxDogmanxxx1 votes

If you couldn't even CC a Xin Zhao, you probably deserved to get bum-rushed.

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