The other reason why competitive diversity sucks: Match-ups

chipndip1··5 votes·1,181 views

Short n' sweet: The game's way too forgiving about champion match-ups to the point where the game's always in a state of "These few champs are better than EVERYONE ELSE in their lane".

Longer post: League of Legends is built upon a foundation largely supported by RPG concepts and mechanics, right? Damage types, classes and sub-classes, spells and passive abilities, level ups...all that jazz. However, Riot's balancing philosophy is akin to fighting games, rather than RPGs, where match-ups are as close to 50/50 as possible with the main defining difference between characters being the logistics of how you fight. Why is this bad for competitive diversity? Well, that's what this long post is for.

Pro play is a showcase of LoL being played the way it was meant to be played at a level where the best the game has to offer can be showcased. Basically, it's the endpoint of Riot's goals when they started Season 6 with DQ that they recently gave up on. Now, everybody knows that the meta for pro play is very different from standard play because standard play lacks coordination and consistent teammates. This leads to things like Shaco working in ranked games...because it's hard to accurately coordinate with your fellow players WITHOUT COMMS IN THE GAME.

With this foundation laid out, when the game's being played the way it's meant to be played (with team work in a team game), champ diversity is pretty bad. Like, I understand that pro scenes tend to have restricted rosters, but the meta diversity for this World's tourney is like a third of a 130+ champ roster. And that's because Riot's taken a "Every match-up is as close to 50/50 as possible" route rather than a "Each champ has clear cut strengths and weaknesses, and that's fine" route, which is great for keeping the low elos (which is the majority of the player base) happy, but sucks for the pro scene spectator experience. Because of the balancing philosophy we currently have, where champs are kinda "soft countered" at best, pros aren't punished for just picking meta giants all the time, and then those giants get nerfed, and then people that aren't in the pros get nerfed for something that hardly applies to them, even though it's a real and entirely possible issue. The tournament itself is less about making unique strategies against new opponents as the draft and match goes along more than it's about 2 teams doing 2 variants of the same thing, based on what's strongest to do, who's the best at doing them, and who got which champ first. It's boring to see it, and the game's meta doesn't "flow" more than Sejuani "Riot forcefully shoves it around based on if they think we've had enough of it already" Sejuani because it's sucks to be in a situation where "because I picked X, they punished with Y". However, now it's like "Why the fuck didn't we ban Nidalee while we're in Diamond again?"

Let's compare this to Pokemon for a sec, like I'd predictably do (I was going to compare it to another game, but this example is clearer since Pokemon's an easy to understand game). In Pokemon, you have tanks, you have sweepers, you have tanky bruisers, and you have offensive/defensive support pokemon. Everyone has their role, but the difference between them goes beyond "I do my thing differently than you" like a fighting game would. It's more like "I do my thing differently, I'm super strong against these guys, and I'm super helpless against those guys". Like, let's say you have my personal offensive support Raichu I bred last year, right? Lil guy's mighty squishy and doesn't do all that much damage, but he was integral to my team because he could slow Lulu multiple enemy pokemon at once (Electroweb), Janna straight up cancel attacks (Fake Out), and Sona did a "decent" amount of damage when required (Thunderbolt) (last move was Protect...doesn't really compare to this game too well). Still, he's an Electric-type that only has Electric-type moves and a move that can only be used once every time he's thrown out, so in a competitive setting, if my lil guy's walled by, say, Marowak, a pokemon that's immune to Electric-type moves...what happens? Well, put bluntly, I'm royally fucked unless someone else could quickly get rid of that thing in 1-2 turns, hence why I had a Milotic too. If Milotic went down before Raichu? I'm even more royally fucked.

Still, the type of thing that pushes diversity in Pokemon is the notion that you can't run everything over with one type of pokemon. You have to build a team that'll balance out the weaknesses of its members as much as possible with its strengths, and yes, some pokemon are straight HELPLESS against others (either by the enemy doubling up on resistances, your guy doubling up on weaknesses, or the enemy being immune to your attacks). It sounds harsh, but that's just how RPGs work. They rely on a system of checks and balances based on who's around and what they have, and the reason why is so that you don't pick "the best one" and bend the game over a barrel.

Now, if you're acquainted with Pokemon, there's another side to this coin...basically that the strongest picks actually DO bend the game over a barrel. Mega Kanga, Mega Gengar, Mega Mence, legendaries...they basically take the meta of the game whenever they're in play and wrap it around themselves by virtue of having insane amounts of damage, type coverage, being way insanely tanky, etc. and so forth. This is the other point: When you have a game that has clearly dominant options, that option takes over the game. That isn't just an RPG thing more than it's a video games thing, and that's why Pokemon's been steadily having issues with team diversity for the past two years when they allowed more and more legendaries into the VGC format. However, in 2014, there was a freaking Pachirisu on the winning team of their biggest tournament. A lowly supportive pokemon you can find in like, the earlier stages of the games...basically an Electric-type Butterfree...being a major factor in winning Pokemon's biggest tournament that year. Also led to some really cool fan art.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--AmV29K8n--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/posfke7sz8etesl5q92s.jpg

The point of comparing LoL to that type of game is that, well, LoL's foundation is made from the stuff of that type of game, but the game's diversity plummets when played in a more organized format because Riot's attempting to appease the feelings of lower elo players. When you scrunch up the match-ups between champs to be so close between themselves in their lanes, it becomes less about picking the right champ for the job and more about picking the best champ, period, and even though disorganized, clown fiesta-infested yolo-queue doesn't reflect that, organized play does and will continue to because they're tapping into what LoL actually is. If we want to see more diversity in pro play, the game needs to be balanced less like fighting games, which are more prone to top tier picks rising and squashing everyone else unless you're a godly low-tier hero due to the fact that counters aren't usually hard counters, and more like an RPG, where each champ has an intentionally clear cut space where they're strong or weak with intentionally made strong/weak match-ups. As an added bonus, it'll give Riot more creative freedom when designing champs, because it'll be possible to create a niche for the purpose of countering another niche/champion sub-class. It's something Riot's dabbled in a Poppy little Cassiopeia bit Taliyah, but it could be taken further.

Side note: This isn't me saying "All assassins should be able to .02 second murder my marksman without ult". This is saying that "Some assassins should be especially suited for dealing with burst mages, or other assassins, or artillery mages, or marksmen, or this assassin works especially well with this enchanter, or that disruptor, or that vanguard, in their general sphere of being assassins", then this concept should be spread around throughout the game so that "This X should be especially strong with Y or against Z". Just sort of polarize and emphasize match-ups and composition synergy so the game naturally promotes champion and strategic diversity, rather than the rather provocative suggestion of enforcing it in pro play by locking out picks.

Champion kits post here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ALEVfMb4-my-problem-with-whining-about-competitive-diversity

22 Comments

Arcus Diabolus3 votes

I'm confused. As a fighting game player, how does fighting games tie into bad diversity at all?

In Blazblue, I'm plenty capable of playing my low B tier Noel and still beating the shit out of a S god tier Valkenhayn player of similar skill, and I'm no where near a good Noel yet. If anything, I would argue that fighting games show off the fact that every match is about the skill of each player more than the character he/she is playing. If who you played meant more, then dispite the two of us being equally skilled, Valkenhayn should win all the time and that simply doesn't happen. Valkenhayn is S tier because he has some good tools, but it doesn't mean much if you know how to counter and play around those tools.

I've yet to see people in fighting games follow a tier list like they do in league, lets just put it that way. If you don't pick in the top 20 champs when playing competitively in league, you lose, but that has never been the case in (most) fighting games I've ever played. The literal only fighting game where who you pick impacts the outcome would be smash, and only because their balancing is kinda notoriously bad, where there are anywhere from 6 to 9 tiers and there are huge differences in between each tier sometimes.

Either I'm not getting something or your point is false.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wag9EbYO,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-10-10T19:32:12.803+0000)

I'm confused. As a fighting game player, how does fighting games tie into bad diversity at all?

It's not that the balancing behind fighting games is inherently bad. It's good...for fighting games. It's bad for RPGs and games akin to them, like League.

In Blazblue, I'm plenty capable of playing my low B tier Noel and still beating the shit out of a S god tier Valkenhayn player of similar skill, and I'm no where near a good Noel yet. If anything, I would argue that fighting games show off the fact that every match is about the skill of each player more than the character he/she is playing. If who you played meant more, then dispite the two of us being equally skilled, Valkenhayn should win all the time and that simply doesn't happen. Valkenhayn is S tier because he has some good tools, but it doesn't mean much if you know how to counter and play around those tools.

Yeah, and like I said, Riot's philosophy values player skill over strategic influence. Thus, champs are made so that even when the match-up is kinda "bleh" on paper, it's pretty believable that you have a way out, which is a good deal like a fighting game. However, with this said, when variance between character effectiveness decreases, the little things that make a character better than another stand out more, and in the hands of a game's best players, those little things come to a head.

Now, in a fighting game, this is fine, because it's not about building a team comp and strategy and all that. However, in THIS game, which is more heavily founded on the strategic elements of RPGs, it sort of bungles up which strategic pieces we can use. When you can't use specific strategic pieces, you end up being unable to utilize general strategies altogether, which causes the pros to do that thing where everyone's playing the same thing, into the same objectives, and using the same strategies...because it's the best one with the best characters.

I've yet to see people in fighting games follow a tier list like they do in league, lets just put it that way. If you don't pick in the top 20 champs when playing competitively in league, you lose, but that has never been the case in (most) fighting games I've ever played. The literal only fighting game where who you pick impacts the outcome would be smash, and only because their balancing is kinda notoriously bad, where there are anywhere from 6 to 9 tiers and there are huge differences in between each tier sometimes.

Well, tier lists influence fighting games depending on the game. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 and many older fighting games have very strict tier lists. Newer games come out with careful and thorough patching, so balancing ain't too shabby in newer games. Well, except UMvC3...that game's pretty bad balance wise with all that foot-foot dive going on.

Either I'm not getting something or your point is false.

It takes a background with both genres to have the point hit home rather smoothly. I game quite a bit too much...

Arcus Diabolus1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, and like I said, Riot's philosophy values player skill over strategic influence. Thus, champs are made so that even when the match-up is kinda "bleh" on paper, it's pretty believable that you have a way out, which is a good deal like a fighting game. However, with this said, when variance between character effectiveness decreases, the little things that make a character better than another stand out more, and in the hands of a game's best players, those little things come to a head.

I don't see how that could possibly be avoided. If you have a fire type sweeper, no matter how different fire types are to other types, you will still pick the even just slightly better fire type sweeper.

I would argue that if you have to point out the small things that could even possibly give one character an edge over another, you are REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrel for any kind of edge you can find and thus the game is balanced.

League's problem has more to do with the fact that is not balanced.

Now, in a fighting game, this is fine, because it's not about building a team comp and strategy and all that. However, in THIS game, which is more heavily founded on the strategic elements of RPGs, it sort of bungles up which strategic pieces we can use. When you can't use specific strategic pieces, you end up being unable to utilize general strategies altogether, which causes the pros to do that thing where everyone's playing the same thing, into the same objectives, and using the same strategies...because it's the best one with the best characters.

The issue is if say Garchomp is the strongest beast around, you still have to deal with that every game because it simply because it just beats out most things despite the fact that beating it is roughly the same as beating a Salamence with both being 4x weak to ice.

The manner in which the game is played would have to change completely for each champion to have big dramatic differences with each other. You're system would work well, assuming everyone were all together from the get-go and you had access to all your pieces at the same time. But for the first 10 minutes or so, each champion is off in their own lane and each of them has to fight at most one other opponent. Your idea runs into the issue that if your character is countered in one lane, like a fire type vs a water type, theres not a whole lot you can do, and losing lane can have huge issues later due to how gold and items work. If there were ways to effectively swap lanes without losing gold efficiency, this wouldn't be a issue, but it is and matchups would win games before the game game even starts.

In short, the way this would work is like puting your sweeper against their sweeper, your tank against their tank and so on all at the same time, and if you have a type disadvantage in one of those, you are weaker in that area in more ways than one. Lord forbid you are counter picked twice.

Well, tier lists influence fighting games depending on the game. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 and many older fighting games have very strict tier lists. Newer games come out with careful and thorough patching, so balancing ain't too shabby in newer games. Well, except UMvC3...that game's pretty bad balance wise with all that foot-foot dive going on.

Actually never tried MvC before, tbh. I hear its terrible.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wag9EbYO,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-10-11T00:53:20.592+0000)

I don't see how that could possibly be avoided. If you have a fire type sweeper, no matter how different fire types are to other types, you will still pick the even just slightly better fire type sweeper.

I would argue that if you have to point out the small things that could even possibly give one character an edge over another, you are REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrel for any kind of edge you can find and thus the game is balanced.

Well, that's a THIRD topic that would could be its own post, but yeah, any competitive scene is going to have a decent degree of tier-whoring in pro play. The issue is the degree of it. LoL, right now, is pretty bad in that regard, and I think the balancing philosophy Riot is using is causing them to treat the game's balance like a circle more than an end point.

League's problem has more to do with the fact that is not balanced.

In terms of pro play...no, but these posts were to delve into why that's the case.

The issue is if say Garchomp is the strongest beast around, you still have to deal with that every game because it simply because it just beats out most things despite the fact that beating it is roughly the same as beating a Salamence with both being 4x weak to ice.

The manner in which the game is played would have to change completely for each champion to have big dramatic differences with each other. You're system would work well, assuming everyone were all together from the get-go and you had access to all your pieces at the same time. But for the first 10 minutes or so, each champion is off in their own lane and each of them has to fight at most one other opponent. Your idea runs into the issue that if your character is countered in one lane, like a fire type vs a water type, theres not a whole lot you can do, and losing lane can have huge issues later due to how gold and items work. If there were ways to effectively swap lanes without losing gold efficiency, this wouldn't be a issue, but it is and matchups would win games before the game game even starts.

In short, the way this would work is like puting your sweeper against their sweeper, your tank against their tank and so on all at the same time, and if you have a type disadvantage in one of those, you are weaker in that area in more ways than one. Lord forbid you are counter picked twice.

This is actually why I used Pokemon for an example. It's really easy to draw comparisons to.

Also, with this said, I understand that this is a thing, and my honest solution is that we need to strike a balance between the two extremes. If you go gung ho for the more strategic side of things, yeah, you lose before you start, but if you go too far towards the execution side of things, the state of balance for the game becomes less like the checks and balances you'd expect from a game featuring classes and level ups and itemization and all that...to more like a "king of the hill" sort of gig, with stronger picks being closer to the top.

I don't think it's realistic for LoL to still be LoL while nearly every champ is viable or strategically useful at once...but it shouldn't be this bad either.

Actually never tried MvC before, tbh. I hear its terrible.

It is. I mean, the older ones are nostalgic, but pro play in that franchise is...ugh...

Arcus Diabolus1 votes

{quoted}

-Snip-

Agreed.

LostFr0st1 votes

Don't even bring up Pokemon. Competitive diversity at worlds there was the same or worse than League worlds diversity and we both know it.

chipndip11 votes

You CLEARLY didn't read the post...because I already covered that in the post.

Hell, I had a paragraph that literally was made for people with knowledge on the VGC scene and how it relates to what I'm saying. Read the entirety of the long post if you're gonna get that far.

LostFr0st1 votes

{quoted}

Now, if you're acquainted with Pokemon, there's another side to this coin...basically that the strongest picks actually DO bend the game over a barrel. Mega Kanga, Mega Gengar, Mega Mence, legendaries...they basically take the meta of the game whenever they're in play and wrap it around themselves by virtue of having insane amounts of damage, type coverage, being way insanely tanky, etc. and so forth. This is the other point: When you have a game that has clearly dominant options, that option takes over the game. That isn't just an RPG thing more than it's a video games thing, and that's why Pokemon's been steadily having issues with team diversity for the past two years when they allowed more and more legendaries into the VGC format. However, in 2014, there was a freaking Pachirisu on the winning team of their biggest tournament. A lowly supportive pokemon you can find in like, the earlier stages of the games...basically an Electric-type Butterfree...being a major factor in winning Pokemon's biggest tournament that year. Also led to some really cool fan art.

^This part right? Someone unfamiliar would only see it if they know where to look for it and have the context. Overall, the text suggested Pokemon diversity was better. I still don't know why they don't just say "battle tower rules" and call it a day. Would solve a ton of problems imo.

chipndip11 votes

I'm suggesting that the general philosophy of checks and balances is better than just flattening out win rates across the board. Results vary each VGC season since they change what's allowed and what's not, but I'm using Pokemon to explain a bunch of different concepts that are working against LoL atm. You should look at the post as a sum of its parts rather than...the parts.

Also, I imagine each paragraph is pretty clear cut. It's not like the meaning is lost in a sea of nonsense.

LostFr0st1 votes

I think with each roster update we get closer to a version of what we'd like League to be. It truly looks like they're working on it and making progress.

I just got a little flustered when you reminded me of this year's tourney is all... I'm sorry.

chipndip11 votes

Nah man, fuck THIS season. THIS season was garbage and I didn't even participate, seeing how the power creep from 2015 was looking to get worse. I used the last two years as examples of a negative concept, and the 2014 season as more positive example. Remember that in 2014 the meta made major shifts like a good number of times before Worlds came around, and even then there were surprise mons popping up. It was pretty cool.

LostFr0st1 votes

ikr. Next year's rules look too restricting now with that alolan-only BS if they go through with it (they probs will -_-).

chipndip12 votes

Nah, it looks aight. Remember, it's anyone you can find in the Alolan dex. Sure, it's not "the national dex", but we got good picks like Eveelutions, Arcanine, Gyarados...I think we even got Salamence on this one.

Just depends on how big the Alolan dex is.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Wrong. Competitive sucks, because pro teams prioritize their dream teamcomp over logic and what the other team is doing.

Like picking Varus mid into Syndra, expecting to not get shit on.

chipndip11 votes

Because the other team got Syndra...so what the fuck is he gonna do? Might as well pick someone and pray.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Picking an ADC into a mage - especially a completely immobile ADC - is stupid on every level.

There are so many neutral or good picks against champions like Syndra, but "pros" value their scrim teamcomps over logical thinking.

Meep Man1 votes

Uhm, Varus is one of the better matchups against Syndra. Superior range can really screw her up.

Vistha Kai1 votes

https://media1.giphy.com/media/E7iIfUlWHBmh2/giphy.gif

You mean that the fact he has to permanently farm with Q to not die makes him a good matchup against Syndra?

Gangplank must be a god-tier pick against her then.

I swear, this LCS fanboyism is reaching new heights.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

one word " BRUISERS.

chipndip11 votes

...and?

MaliciousX1 votes

I liked your post.....until you brought up pokemon and spent half the time comparing league to it, i stopped reading when i saw pokemon. I was too old for pokemon when it first came out (around 15) and im too old for it now (31). Pokemon is for kids, and i dont care to hear how it compares too league. Too each their own i guess.

chipndip11 votes

I picked Pokemon because it's simple and well known. I was INITIALLY going to compare it to Etrian Odyssey, but then I'd have to spend even more time just explaining the mechanics in the game and all that shit so that way one can even understand the comparison. To boot, Pokemon can be played competitively, so the notion of playing against someone with RPG mechanics is applied as well.

Also, you're seriously telling me you can't just finish the post or get the bigger picture of it simply because I made comparisons to Pokemon?

More from Gameplay

More by chipndip1