The difference between highest and lowest win rates determine overall state of balance in the game.

BluePolarizer··32 votes·2,609 views

And the difference has never been bigger.

Back at the end of season 3 and start of season 4, Urgot Tier was reserved for a champion with a 45% win rate. Urgot was considered the worst champ ever at 45% win rate. I believe the top champion at the time was Heimerdinger sitting at a 54% win rate. There was a 9% difference between the worst champ in the game and the best champ in the game.

Today we have Skarner with a 60% and Kassadin with a 43% win rate. There is a 17% difference between the worst and the best champ in the game, which is almost double the difference in early season 4.

In addition, there are currently 8 champions with below 46% win rate, which is almost unprecedented. Back then, it was only Urgot and Leblanc who were at such low win rates, and LeBlanc had a low win rate because people did not understand her complex power curve and/or were not mechanically skilled enough to play her.

80 Comments

SwapShadows11 votes

If you're asking for kassadin to be viable you are literally supporting cancer.

no one wants kass to be viable with his stupid ultimate, either completely rework or keep him gutted.

SEKAI10 votes

{quoted}

no one wants kass to be viable with his stupid ultimate, either completely rework or keep him gutted.

Meh Lee has that as his QW anyway, and Kalista has that as her AA.

Demonsolder213 votes

This.

Not Katarina1 votes

I hate playing against both Lee and Kalista, and while I personally don't believe how irritating a champion is to play against determines how viable it should be, Kassadin's R has recently been buffed, and he has always been a troublesome champion with those who know how to use him. Not to mention when he (definitely) catches up to you, he has a slow and burst damage attached to it. Lee is gonna whack you a few times with his stanky leg and either insec you or fail (higher possibility of the latter). I just feel like Lee is much more kiteable than Kass, and while I hate him, there is a lot more counterplay attached than just getting slam dunked by the void.

No offence meant, just a thought. :]

On a separate note, fuck Kalista. :[

KaisadiIIa4 votes

Kassadin has been there for years and people never complained until season 3. It's probably the most overrated champion in the history of this game, just because half the community can't think further than "5 sec cd flash = OPOPOPOPOPOP". Champions like Lee Sin or Kalista may not have more direct mobility spells, but they have certainly better mobility overall.

Ulquiorra9951 votes

-League's iconic mobility champion pays for his mobility by getting smacked with a nerfbat in every other aspect.

-Meanwhile, likes of Lee, Riven and Kalista still roam free.

Vistha Kai7 votes

Wasn't Skarner at 65%, though?

DorkunedAuras1 votes

uhhh, yes he is. On a side note, don't look into my match history, I definitely haven't been playing him like mad.

Vistha Kai1 votes

We all did it at one point.

I think I still have 64%+ winrate on Ahri this season.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

At least skarner gets only 1 week (he's getting hotfix nerfed) of being dumb, ahri's been dominant for a very long time now.

SEKAI7 votes

Nah man, take a look at the pick rates and you'll get a heart attack. Come back to see me if it doesn't work and I'll refund you, with my obvious ocean of fks I have here in my hands.

But atrocious jokes from me aside, that's really where the current balance state of this game TRULY shows.

SwapShadows5 votes

I agree, gut everyone so there is no difference.

Transgressor2 votes

Wanna see ADC mains complain about the tank meta's wet noodle fights when everyone hits for 10 damage. Next featured gamemode confirmed: the Tickle Survival turnaments, the last to get tickled to death wins.

Lugg5 votes

Win rates can be VERY deceptive sometimes. With all the add-ons that you can use to support the game, you can target band certain players who have great win rates on a champ. This is what causes very strong champs to not have as high of winrates as they should have. When you ban out a champ against a main, it skews the win rate lower.

Hopefully this post makes sense. It's kind of hard to explain.

Transgressor1 votes

It makes perfect sense, but not to those who have turned winrates into the purpose of their existance. You, me an many others understand the variables that define the balance of a champion at any given time are far too many to be justified with a meager winrate, but it's those clowns that are the vocal minority ruining it for everyone :(

Lugg3 votes

Don't get me wrong, win rates can be very helpful. You just have to put it in context.

Transgressor1 votes

Exactly.

Transgressor4 votes

If people take their heads out of their "winrate asses"(yes, it's a thing) then maybe, I say MAYBE, we can have meaningfull conversation about game balance.

"m-mu -muh winrate!1!!"

KaisadiIIa1 votes

Winrate is the best indicator about game balance.

Transgressor5 votes

Instances for 50 games:

10 players play the same champion no matter what lane, build, matchup, score. They all win. Champion has now 100% winrate. By your logic; NERF.

1,000 players play the same champion top, with a full tank build, in a favorable matchup, with a good score. Not all of them win. Champion has now 30% winrate, by your logic; BUFF.

10,000 players play the same champion mid, full AP, no matter the matchup because this particular champion just doesn't work with AP, with varied resulting scores. Champion has now a 5% winrate. By your logic; BUFF.

100,000 players play the same champion top/jungle/support, because the kit allows for some flexibility and off-meta builds, just not AP. Matchups are varied, from favorable to dominating to straight-up lost. Scores are as expected varied, with a small positive discrepancy in the jungle, indicating this champion might be a better jungler than top or support. Winrate 50%. By your logic; BALANCED.

Conclusions: 50 games are not enough to give accurate metrics. 50 games start withing the first 2 minutes of a champion's release for crying out loud. The number of players are not enough to indicate a pattern. What Region is the instance taking part in? Some maybe better at mid lane, some better at jungling etc. What's your demographic? Where they challenger players? Bronze 5? Silver 1-2xGold 5-4-3? Platinum 2? Under which circumstances does the champion function best, the way intened by Riot, unorthodox picks, off-meta? What kind of build works best? AP/AD bruiser, full tank, AP/AD melee or ranged carry? AP/AD jungle? Tanky support, utility support? What's the powercurve of this champion? How does gameflow affect them?

Hereby, we warantee that simple fucking winrate is NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH TO INDICATE A CHAMPION'S BALANCE. We need ALOT of stats, tracked through ALOT of games, by ALOT of players, in MANY regions. That way, patters can be drawn which show a "SUBJECTIVE" champion balance. My AD bruiser Leona top sitting at a 95% winrate is far better than yours. But you play Leona support at a 45% winrate, along with those other 5million Leona support players who have 52% winrate. What does that tell us with your logic? That you suck at Leona, but because of those who play her like you do and are better, she is sitting with a healthy winrate, thus making her balanced. But that isn't true, simply because I compared apples to oranges.

You've been proven false, and rendered incapable. Take a hike.

Razgriz9902 votes

You always have the best arguments lol

Transgressor1 votes

high five

Edasich1 votes

Except for when he resorts to stupid insults.

Razgriz9902 votes

Stupid insults for stupid people? Eh, everyone gets grumpy ever now and then.

Transgressor1 votes

95% of you north americans here in the boards get offended waaaaaaaaay too easily, and have quite a closed minded. Ya'll need to chill out, and be open to different opinions as well as criticism you might not like.

Freedom of speech.

KaisadiIIa1 votes

Of couse, the whole Caitlyn playerbase playing her as an AP mid is an irrefutable argument.

Transgressor1 votes

Caitlyn full AP mid having a 65% winrate isn't an indicator of her being an OP champion. It's an indicator her AP ratios are way too high. Which leads to her having her AP aspect nerfed so as to not be overbearing. This way, she gets to keep her niche off-meta AP play style without being broken, and remains healthy to play the way she was intended to be played by her designers.

KaisadiIIa1 votes

I guess you missed the point again.

pripustas2 votes

Yet Riot focuses on champions that could wait a little longer, instead of champions that are unplayable Kassadin

Trebbi3 votes

{quoted}

Yet Riot focuses on champions that could wait a little longer, instead of champions that are unplayable Kassadin

You do know he got a slight buff?

pripustas5 votes

Shit with glitter on it is still a shit.

Ionian4 votes

Considering he's like the easiest champion in the game, it would be far better to just rework him instead of changing his values. His ult is too gamebreaking.

Transgressor1 votes

His ult is gamebreaking LMAO. It goes to show your intellect.

Lets see what he had: Point and click silence. Basic attack enhancer, that passively granted him mana and a tad bit of magic damage on hit, just to help him last hit. AoE slow that needs charges to be even available, an ult that did nothing but give mobility. A passive that gave him % magic damage reduction which turned into attack speed, was usefull ONLY WHEN HE TOOK MAGIC DAMAGE.

Lets see what an actual champion has: massive range poke skillshot, which can be reactivated to dash to them, dealing extra damage based on their missing health. On demand shield which could be used to shield, wardhop, championhop, minionhop. Can be recast for extra lifesteal and spellvamp. AoE damage instanuke, can be recast to slow ALL THE TARGETS THAT GOT HIT(100% bonus AD). Average cooldown ultimate with great base damage and insane AD ratio, that has ridiculous utility and gamechanging capabilities(200% bonus AD). Uses energy as a resource, which can be regenerated even faster thanks to his dumb passive.

Lets see what another champion has: Long range reliable physical damage poke projectile that travels through multiple targets. W that gives near-instant on demand mobility which allows him to duplicate his 2 other basic spells. Increasing his basic AD by a percentage, turning him into a late game monster with 400+AD. AoE physical damage slowing spell. An ultimate that makes him untargetable and acts as a dash on cast, and then as a get-away-from-jail-free card with a disgusting range, as well as allowing him to FREAKING TRIPLICATE 2 of basic spells. Then, does extra damage based on itself, and the damage dealt while a "special" mark was in place. A passive that does bonus magic damage on hit increased with % missing health to a target with lower HP than a specific threshold at certain intervals. Uses energy as a resource, and, being the ridiculous "AD caster/assasin with a spammable skill rotation" he is, thanks to his bullshit mobility and skills' passives can freely regenerate bonus energy every time he hits a champion, basically doesn't even get punished for bad plays.

A gamebreaking ultimate that does nothing but give spammable mobility for a champion who has had one of the worst laning phases with some of the most boring and binary abilities. A champion that had(and still has) to compete with the likes of Akali, Ahri, Orianna, Ryze, Lissandra, Annie, Yasuo, Azir, Anivia, Brand, Viktor, Malzahar, Heimerdinger, Nidalee, Xerath, Velkoz, Zyra, Talon, Syndra, Veigar, Vladimir, Twisted Fate, Lux, Cassiopeia, Fizz, Galio, Diana, Ekko, Jayce, Gragas, Morgana, Mordekaiser, LuLu, Cho Gath, AP Ezreal, AP Kog Maw, Katarina.

And lets not forget the samefull disgrace of a pathetic half-assed rework and visual update, that made him completely unviable and insulting to play with.

Get good.

Ionian2 votes

Well done. I talk about champion difficulty and you give me Lee and Zed's kit, like they somehow influence Kassadin's absolute 0 skill gameplay. Shows your intellect. Btw none of those have a blink on a 2s cooldown that also does scaling damage. And good job mentioning the visual update, because that really affects the gameplay.

"Get good" - said by a silver L0L

How about you learn to play the game before having the audacity to reply to me, silver?

Trebbi3 votes

{quoted}

Shit with glitter on it is still a shit.

Well shit with glitter is being played in LPL finales. SO the buff, must be good enough to warrant his use.

Fiora us also played.

pripustas2 votes

Yep, tho it's patch 5.15, Kassadin did 0 this game. An anti-mage completely destroyed by Viktor. It wasn't even close. No damage, no utility, what good is he now?

Catastrop2 votes

A 0.2 ap ratio isn't helping him any if he still Riftcrawls.

Transgressor2 votes

Rift steps? :3

Ionian2 votes

{quoted} her complex power curve and/or were not mechanically skilled enough to play her.

QRW is complex? Right.

Varalessia19 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WafUkaEu,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-23T11:45:49.777+0000)

QRW is complex? Right.

Game has evolved. Back then you didnt have double passives with 30 abilities that do X if Y is met but only with Z and if the stars align in a certain way it does double damage by the grace of CertainlyT and if you get a pentakill with it phreak descends from the rainbow LCS cloud and showers you with 10000000 gold while repeating "tons of damage"

Ionian1 votes

Did you just describe Yone's kit?

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Good thing Yone is dead.

Aych Pii3 votes

Wow, someone's salty as fuck. What are you even criticizing? None of this has anything to do with leblanc.

MasqureMan1 votes

{quoted}

Game has evolved. Back then you didnt have double passives with 30 abilities that do X if Y is met but only with Z and if the stars align in a certain way it does double damage by the grace of CertainlyT and if you get a pentakill with it phreak descends from the rainbow LCS cloud and showers you with 10000000 gold while repeating "tons of damage"

Please make this a yasuo legendary skin

Not Katarina1 votes

Ekko It's not how many passives you have, it's how you use 'em

JohnnyNoxid2 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WafUkaEu,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-23T11:45:49.777+0000)

QRW is complex? Right.

That's not even her hightest damage output. A better combo is EQRW, but that's just one.

Ionian2 votes

But E is a skillshot. Do you expect a LB player to hit skillshots?

JohnnyNoxid1 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WafUkaEu,comment-id=000200020000,timestamp=2015-08-23T20:25:36.757+0000)

But E is a skillshot. Do you expect a LB player to hit skillshots?

Uh, yeah, I do. If they're a LB player they need to hit it.

Sozan52 votes

No.

Win-rates are one to the tools used to determine how imbalanced the game is - and it's a tool that's directly based on pick-rate (which is more important in general).

Here's a few example how win-rate can be used to determine balance (mind you that win-rate is usually an invalid tool by itself, and it needs pick-rate in order to be useful):

If a champion have low pick-rate, but decent to high win-rates then that champion is usually balanced and either hard to play or just having a niche that it's effective in.

If a champion have low pick-rate and low win-rate then that champion is usually too weak. Mind you that some champions are intentionally kept weak due to flawed design.

On the other hand, if a champion have high pick-rate and low win-rate then that champion is often balanced, or a bit on the strong side. A champion with high pick-rate is almost never weak (this doesn't apply to newly released champions and reworked champions for the first few days - which can be weak).

And of course, if a champion have high pick-rate and decent-high win-rate then that champion is usually too strong.

By win-rate alone you cannot determine shit.

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