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Some misunderstanding about champions like Irelia

BLIGHTBRINGER··10 votes·7,149 views

###Introduction

We can all say that a champion like Irelia is really strong and has always seen as a dominant pick, thus why people always are asking to give Irelia a more meaningfull nerf then that -5 to Movement Speed.

What I feel like some people are misunderstanding about Irelia in particular is that she's not actually broken, or she wouldn't be atleast if it wasn't for the follwing things...

###Trinity Force

I'm surprised that no one, absolutely no one is talking how strong this item is, in almost every way.

  • Great/meaningfull/useful item stats
  • Great first item choice regardless of it's high price
  • Has a good item path making the investment not risky
  • Another item that offers possibly the most damage in the game (aside from Deathcap Stat & Passive, etc...)
  • Offers almost every stat that there is

###Q interaction with Trinity Force Sheen Passive

Irelia is strong because she can continuesly apply the free Trinity Force Sheen Damage alongside her base Q damage (which isn't really that high, 5 - 85 [60% AD]) on marked targets with her Q for free.

The Trinity Force Sheen Passive gives her atleast 150-200 or more damage on every proc, and add up her Q damage making it basically do 235-285 or more damage on every Q use.

###Level 2 Powerspike

Again not an issue with her directly, but this time it's a rune. Conqueror.

Not only does this Rune give her an advantage in the bonus AD she gets from it but it also transfers 20% of her dealt damage into True Damage.

###With Conqueror...

  • 20% of her total damage dealt ignores base defenses, making sure you can't trade or fight her when ever it's up.
  • She can continuesly refresh this effect because she's a melee champion, making her always a threat.
  • Has bonus AD, basically giving her an another advantage to making sure you again won't be able to trade or win the fight.

Now if you take both Conqueror and Trinity Force away, or atleast just the Trinity Force, I assure you that she would be less oppresive and seem much more balanced in all of your point of view.

17 Comments

ZerglingOne8 votes

Just up Q's damage and only make it reset on kill again. Fuck the mark thing.

That was always a tradeoff you had to make back then.

It was an EXTREMELY skillful interaction in this case. Here's how it would play out.

There were major downsides to her Q. Would you blow Sheen's proc on the Q to the minion you had to go on to get in range? Would that prevent getting a kill? If it would prevent getting a kill, you have to blow the sheen proc, wait for just the right moment, and then Q Q to ensure you get the sheen damage off.

What, you thought giving her a skill shot stun would make up for the fact that they got rid of one of her highest skill interactions? HAH. No, by removing that, they made everyone "good" at Irelia, because you never really have to put yourself into a risky situation to deal damage. At least with old Irelia, if she was ahead of you on HP, you had a pretty solid chance of escaping if she couldn't just burst you out.

Now though? Pff, good luck. It takes no skill, even though she got more skill shots, her skill floor is miles lower than it used to be. Unless you knew exactly how to play her before, she was clunky as fuck. Her Q would eat time for lunch, would frequently put you in a position you didn't want to be, and was hard to use effectively. Now are you marked? You're eating a Q and she's getting off scott free, and she's in prime position to keep damaging you if she wants. She's not forced to commit at all, she just whittles you down until you can't take anymore Q's and she either kills you with her burst combo, or you have to leave.

ValiantKiller2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WZJAJw0r,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-11-26T08:10:35.633+0000)

###Introduction

We can all say that a champion like Irelia is really strong and has always seen as a dominant pick, thus why people always are asking to give Irelia a more meaningfull nerf then that -5 to Movement Speed.

What I feel like some people are misunderstanding about Irelia in particular is that she's not actually broken, or she wouldn't be atleast if it wasn't for the follwing things...

###Trinity Force

I'm surprised that no one, absolutely no one is talking how strong this item is, in almost every way.

  • Great/meaningfull/useful item stats
  • Great first item choice regardless of it's high price
  • Has a good item path making the investment not risky
  • Another item that offers possibly the most damage in the game (aside from Deathcap Stat & Passive, etc...)
  • Offers almost every stat that there is

###Q interaction with Trinity Force Sheen Passive

Irelia is strong because she can continuesly apply the free Trinity Force Sheen Damage alongside her base Q damage (which isn't really that high, 5 - 85 [60% AD]) on marked targets with her Q for free.

The Trinity Force Sheen Passive gives her atleast 150-200 or more damage on every proc, and add up her Q damage making it basically do 235-285 or more damage on every Q use. But also add Sterak's Gage Passive which also adds on to this bonus (even after the interaction nerfs it's still a fairly strong synergy).

###Level 2 Powerspike

Again not an issue with her directly, but this time it's a rune. Conqueror.

Not only does this Rune give her an advantage in the bonus AD she gets from it but it also transfers 20% of her dealt damage into True Damage.

###With Conqueror...

  • 20% of her total damage dealt ignores base defenses, making sure you can't trade or fight her when ever it's up.
  • She can continuesly refresh this effect because she's a melee champion, making her always a threat.
  • Has bonus AD, basically giving her an another advantage to making sure you again won't be able to trade or win the fight.

Now if you take both Conqueror and Trinity Force away, or atleast just the Trinity Force, I assure you that she would be less oppresive and seem much more balanced in all of your point of view.

That sounds nice but problem is, we talked about how broken is conquer and riot did nothing.

Plus champions like yorick will be trash level if there no trinity so yah

DM For Rat Facts1 votes

Yes. When you give people options on build paths in any game but especially competitive ones, players will pick the most optimized build possible. There's no way to circumvent this. Either conqueror or irelia takes the hit, and nerfing a keystone makes it hard for other top laners to be balanced. However nerfing irelia is tough on it's own as she's pretty fine in pro play right now.

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

Top lane is fine. Which is why they statistically have the highest winrate. The fact that some people are complaining about Fighters when they are still one of the strongest class with possibly the strongest keystone at their disposal is just a little stupid lol.

30 of Top Lanes champions have a winrate of 50% or more. 27 for Midlane. 22 for Jungle. 15 for Support. 12 for Bot Lane.

(Source: OP.GG)

DM For Rat Facts1 votes

Hit conqueror and sion breaks the game lol

BLIGHTBRINGER3 votes

Then nerf Sion?

Iota Theta3 votes

[{quoted}](name=DM For Rat Facts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WZJAJw0r,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-26T09:02:02.409+0000)

Hit conqueror and sion breaks the game lol

One champ should not be a determining factor for whether a rune should get hit or not. No other tank is currentlh as good as Sion, so that means there’s Something to look at with him. His state should not be a factor with Conquerer, just means his current meta strat needs looked at as well. Klepto is also apparently pretty handy in that matchup though if you can run it.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Trinity is good, but is a) expensive and b) doesn't scale along with other items with some kind of synergy. Conqueror + Trinity proc can be broken on some champions (mainly Darius/ maybe Morde, but he would never be in range to hit you three times with Q)

Poske1 votes

I basically disagree with everything you said

Phage is higher winrate rush item for irelia (But then again every noob would rush sheen on irelia which brings sheen rush ire down) Sheen is overated because you always wanna jumpreset on a minion (which burns sheen) as your first gapclose

Trinity is really not OP. It doesnt give any notable defense.

I tried conqueror irelia, Dark harvest irelia. And My only conlusion was that both of this keystones arent close to Aftershock The free 70 armor and MR gain is insane.

Doing 1000-2000 more damage per game due to conqueror cannot parry the armor and mr gain If it were 7000-8000 I would be taking conqueror but its far from that

OH YOU ARE RUNNING AFTERSHOCK IRELIA WHAT A CRAZY PERSON (Fiddlestick mains did to, if a ranged mage can bruiser can to)

Having said that the Free ADAPTIVE AD gain did somewhat buff conqueror

anyway Irelia is overated and doesnt need nerfs She has massive teamfight potentional but it usually ends there at "potentional" against compotent enemies If anything denies her dash anywhere her entire teamfight potentional flops and that is just 1 way of stopping her

The only concerning thing with irelia is that despite being balanced she is viable in top mid and adc role So she could use some nerfs for being a flex pick

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

Trinity is really not OP

Then how do you explain the fact that all fighters switched from Black Cleaver into Trinity Force? Even champions who shouldn't be able to synergyse well with the item (Garen, who doesn't benefit from the extra Mana).

One more thing, play a couple of games of Irelia without a Trinity Force, and a couple with and tell me if you still think that Trinity Force isn't the cause of the issues.

GelsominoKiller3 votes

Triforce costs a shitload of gold. It is supposed to be extremely strong. I agree that a 200% bAD sheen proc might be a bit too much, but many champions are balanced around it though: remove sheen synergy and those champions become pointless (Hecarim). I'd rather nerf Irelia by not counting Q as an AA.

Darius switched from BC to triforce due to him not needing armor shred anymore. Toplane tanks became non-existent thanks to conqueror, and bruisers switched to more offensive build. We're in a 2-year-long damage meta, after all.

BLIGHTBRINGER2 votes

You make a lot of fair points, I agree with you.

Cptn Han SoloQ1 votes

Yet she was made with those things existing. She is to strong like every other reset reliant champion. Just in her case she can even build comfortably tanky on top of her power creeped kit. She needs needs, real nerfs just like aatrox and akali or midlane will never open up for other picks again. [No I do not care for us Wingate stats, these mean nothing.]_[slayer-jinx-unamused] _

Besteal1 votes

Steraks actually has no interaction with Spellblade whatsoever. Not anymore. There is zero synergy. It's just that people still buy it because it's that good of an item. And yes. Conqueror and Trinity are 90% of the problems with Irelia. She really isn't that great of a champion without both. Remember when people tried PTA on Irelia when she came out? Absolutely worthless compared to Conqueror. The rune makes too many champions far too good.

Malix Farwin1 votes

Kinda a flawed argument. You are basically saying she is not broken because of the things she interacts with synergizes too well with her kit but at the same time ignoring the "with her kit" part. TF has always existed but no one else is broken with it just her soo why is TF the problem and not her. Conq. you could have a small argument with it but again no one else is nearly as broken with it as her.

Gutting those 2 things would just nerf everyone else who are reliant upon them who aren't actually OP. So again the problem still falls to Irelia.

ankoanko191 votes

Delet Q on hit.

Alzon1 votes

3733 gold for roughly a 300 DPS increase if Spellblade is managed perfectly. Probably closer to 200 in reality. Also doesn’t scale very well, but it doesn’t need to if the enemy is only sitting on base stats for defenses.

Triforce is really just a statball that makes everything go faster. It’s Tencent’s mascot item and the reason why bruisers can’t have more/better combat movement items.

Of course, that’s still 3733 gold for 25 AD. A champion who’s looking to scale should theoretically avoid Triforce, but it’s so damn overtuned that it’s a must-buy on MANY hyperscaling champions. I truly believe Triforce should be split into two items - one more early-game oriented, and one for the late game.

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